Dear all

Im considering a number of ways to make spirit summoning more unpredictable, but i want to hear your thoughts on it first before introducing it. Also want to hear if anyone has any other suggestions. However i would like to keep this strictly within the rulechanges, although i do not critisize or doubt that introducing (more) spirit RP and the like can be effective in balancing some things out, I would like to keep this out of the discussion. Alhtough i think ill be using the spirit aspect with concealment (eg. air element will conceal with a cloud of air for instance).

So ill start with the simplest "fix" ive come up with yet:

Increase the drain from x2 to x3

That would be quite harsh for Binding, though.

I generally like to restrict magic when it goes beyond the Magic Rating (i.e. Overcasting).

Higher Drain (only for spells; summoning Drain is quite alright, IMHO, it's always a risk thanks to the randomness involved, once you get to decent Force Ratings; i.e. 5+), and when suffering physical Drain (Force higher than Magic), you also suffer the same amount in Stun as well (roll twice against the same DV, once for physical and once for stun).

Bye
Thanee

I haven't considered binding yet.

You should, though. Those two go hand-in-hand.

Bye
Thanee

A suggestion was made in another topic that all spirits of >= Force 5 use Edge to resist summoning. I think I would prefer this solution over a blanket increase in the drain multiplier.

I've found in practice that the belief people have that Summoning and Binding Drain can be handled easily doesn't pan out. If a character consistently pushes his Conjuring to the limit, sooner or later he will pay, even to the point of killing himself with the Drain. No matter how many times you succeed, all it takes is once to end the fun.

Raising Drain for Conjuring attempts from X2 to X3 would destroy the Skills' usefulness.

Aye, personally I'd just figure that it isn't really all that easy to force Mana into a thinking, sentient being so all Spirits use their Edge to resist summoning, not because they exist before being summoned, but because it's really fragging hard to create them on the spot.

If they all use Edge to resist, you just raised Drain to x4 effectively, BTW. That's even more than his x3.

Bye
Thanee

Not really, at best its twice the normal drain, not a big deal as long as you aren't summoning "monster" spirits.

*EDIT*

Remember extra dice doesn't translate to extra sucess so it isn't as bad as a straight modifer.

Do spirits even have edge ? If they do i would definately consider that most/all spirits will use their edge to reroll.

*EDIT*
Ok, they have EDGE equal to FORCE.

Yes, equal to their ( Force ), I hadn't thought about rerolling, merely adding the extra dice.

Even reroll is not like doubling the hits however it comes close. A bad initial roll will be mitigated. A good initial roll will not have as many dice to reroll. However it effectively increases average total hits to 5/9 of dice pool instead of 1/3. So yes, on average that is close to double.

I have my team statistician working on a probability table with Edge factored in. My instincts tell me that the multiplier change will be more important at lower forces and the Edge would be more decisive at higher forces.

Edit: Apparently integrating infinitely recursive re-rolling of sixes into his Excel probability table is non-trivial. Has anyone already done this in Excel?

Is the issue that you want summoning to be more unpredictable (which will have the effect of encouraging people to summon lower level spirits or take injuries more often), or that you feel summoning is overpowered? If you think summoning's overpowered you could always just make spirits less powerful in some way while keeping the drain rules the same.

Yes, Apathy has a point there. darune, why do you say you want Summoning to be more unpredictable? What do you mean by that? What purpose will it serve? Answering these questions might help us focus on what you are looking for.

Yeah, I figured that would be misunderstood, heh. My bad, really.

I meant x4 in the way that the original poster used x2 and x3. Like double the dice at x2 is the same as standard number of dice x4, hence the x4.

Of course that's just twice as much, but since the base is x2...



Uh, no. This is completely wrong. Every extra dice is 1/3 extra hit (on average).

And changing the x2 per hit to x3 is also depending on rolling 5's, so no 'straight modifier', just less variance. The average will be about the same, if you use Edge as extra dice (bit higher, that, thanks to rerolling 6's) or change the x2 to x4 instead. And that's the important number. With a higher multiplier, you will just get a more stable (as in more predictable) result, that is closer to the average usually and does not spread as wide around it.

Bye
Thanee

Aye, I realized what you were talking about shortly after posting when my brainfart has passed. Still I'd like the larger spread as opposed to a straight mod, seems like it hurts less.

Agreed. More variance is good in that case.

Bye
Thanee

We use Force 4+ for using Edge, Added to the Pool (6's Explode), not rerolling Failures...

Keep the Faith

I'm inclined to say Spirits only use edge to resist summoning in cases of Spirit Bane, or on a summoning glitch. Similarly, I wouldn't have the spirit using edge in the player's favor either (when using powers and such, or even resisting damage) except with Spirit Bonus (forgot the naming convention... mean the opposite of Bane) or a critical summoning success.

Whatever works to control the issue in your game...

Keep the Faith

Spirits are allready pretty random, I was nearly taken out of commission last time I summoned a force 5 spirit and they got 4 successes, 8 drain is a lot for a medium power spirit, especially when your drain resistance dice hate you.

My biggest concern is that you can summon a force 3 spirit and choose whatever power you want from the list (including the power that emulates a spell, if memory serves)

That is like a swish army knife (dont you think ?) and seriously the drain risk is very low for force 3 (assuming the spirit is not using edge)

The spirit can only use spells that you know yourself, though, if memory serves.

F3 spirits are really not a big deal. F10+ spirits, however...

Bye
Thanee

Ok, that makes sense.

However the mage could, for one example, utilize a F3 spirit to maintain a spell. That is effectively close to a free sustaining focus, (no ? prove me wrong please). Although there are more expensive foci, sustaining focus is far from free if you consider the karma/BP and monetary costs.

That kind of service requires Binding, which is not free (and unlike a Sustaining Focus, the services cannot be 'reused', you have to invest/pay more time/money to get new ones).

Bye
Thanee

And don't forget that if you Spell Bind a Spirit, its force reduces by one each day, after 3 days, your Force 3 Spirit is destroyed (Has a Force of 0, which destroys it permanently)... do this a few times and you can expect to have the Spirit Bane Quality...

Also, the Spirit can only bind spells of the category that it represents...

If you go the Spell Sustaining route rather than the Spell Binding Route, then it will sustain a spell for its force in Rounds per service... this is a slightly better option, but its duration is truly insignificant for spells that you want to sustain with a sustaining focus...

Keep the Faith

The easiest route to have a spirit sustain a spell is having the Spirit of Man cast and sustain it. Any unbound Spirit of Man can do it and can sustain it indefinitely, well until the next sunrise or sunset.

In my current game, I play a Technomancer. We have implemented the rule of having high rating sprites roll edge to resist compiling and registering. After the first time that I nearly died from summoning a force 6 paladin sprite, I decided that discretion was called for. Now there are role playing opportunities as I try to convince my good friend the sprite that I am not so harsh a master, and to convince him to join me without the struggle (picture Ike and Tina?). As a rule I summon lower rating sprites unless I am willing to risk life and limb.

This is True... But they only get the spell (one spell only) that the Caster Gives them, and ONLY a spirit of man can do it...
Spell Binding and Spell Sustaining are there for the traditions that don't get Spirits of Man, or for those characters that need more than a singel spell sustained at a time, and want the versatility of having more than Spirits of Man on Call...

Keep the Faith

Actually it's one per 3 Force points and one Category isn't that much better. It's true though for the traditions that don't have spirits of man.

That would be true If the spirit is in increments of 3, but that is pretty uncommon... I could see a Spirit of Man with 2 Spells (Force 6-8 ) with no real problem, but beyond that it becomes problematic...

Keep the Faith

True, my point was that two spells of any category are most of the time better than all spells from one category. Also having the spirit cast the spell does not reduce its Force and should not get the summoner into Spirit Bane territory.

Spirits, per RAW, are super useful. In just four or five sessions, I've seen the magician in my group use spirits for Combat, Movement, Confusion, Search, and Concealment. His spirits have been instrumental in several situations, and that's been without binding any of them.

I can see why someone might want to de-emphasize spirits and reduce their usefulness. What do you, or anyone else, suggest as an alternative to messing with Summoning Drain?

Many years ago I GMed a group of guys who saw themselves as real pros of the game, and they treated newbies with disdain, particularly female newbies.

Until my then-wife, a relatively new SR player, played a few sessions with the bunch of them and taught them all (I learned a few new tricks too) how to properly use spirits. She and her stable of spirits stole the show and outperformed the rest of them combined. So, I can understand the feeling that Conjuring is overpowered and needs to be reigned in, though in the above example I think her outperformance of the rest of the team was more an artifact of their complacency and lack of imagination than any real difference in power among the PCs.

Nevertheless, I maintain that the advantages of Conjuring do not outweigh other skillsets in the game. What often does happen, in my experience, is that the balances built into Conjuring are not played to their fullest by the GM. Not only can this give the player a free ride, but it robs the GM of some fun. Drain is an important aspect of those balances, and should be watched carefully by the GM. As well there are other balances such as Tradition limitations, literal interpretation of commands by spirits, financial costs, time restraints, visibility of the act of Conjuration, effects of conjurer-spirit interaction on the long-term relationship between them, and probably more that don't come to me off the top of my head.

I also believe that there are spheres of action in which every archetype has the opportunity to shine above the others, and perhaps in a game in which a magician seems to be overpowering, maybe the GM needs to provide opportunities in which the magician cannot outshine another team member.

I think Magic in general and Conjuring in particular are not overpowered, and they don't need to be fixed.

You make reasonable points. I don't feel strongly that spirits need a nerf, but I am curious about how people would go about it.

Minor quibble on "visibility of the act of Conjuration." Just how visible can an action that takes no more than three seconds be? In the case of a magician with Increased Reflexes running, an act of Conjuration lasting one second. That's not even enough time to do "big arms."

For all Spirits, remove the Edge attribute and replace "Force" with "Force ÷ 2" for Physical and Mental attributes (minimum 1).
Change the Drain Value of Summoning & Binding to "(Force ÷ 2) + Hits*"
* = Spirit's Hits on the opposed test (not Net Hits)

For all Sprites, remove the Edge attribute and replace "Rating" with "Rating ÷ 2" for Matrix attributes (minimum 1).
Change the Fading Value of Compiling & Registering to "(Rating ÷ 2) + Hits*"
* = Sprite's Hits on the opposed test (not Net Hits)

A magician or technomancer may use Edge to augment a controlled spirit or sprite's test as if it where their own.




Edit: This alone should be enough to reduce spirits to an excelent resource & effective combatant, while removing the possiblility of them destroying balance. Thus far, it has worked quite well in my games.

That being said, it is actually intended to work with other House Rules I have in place. Of those, the most important is the change to Hardened Armor & Immunity. Immunity grants Hardened Armor equal to the creatures Magic attribute (opposed to RAW x2). Hardened Armor is now treated as automatic Hits on Resistance tests; it is affected by Penetration normally.

While role-playing aspects of the conjuring should be included, they are not appropriate for mechanical balance. They are variable from game to game, & often even within a game. Further, mechanical balance is, obviously, mechanical in effect. As such, it should work in conjunction with, but remain seperate from, anything without mechanical effects (fluff & cruch should compliment each other, not depend on each other).


For comparison on the Drain aspect:
Minimum / Average / Maximum
Summoning
Force 1 : 2 / 2 / 2 changes to 2 / 2 / 2
Force 3 : 2 / 2 / 6 changes to 2 / 2 / 4
Force 6 : 2 / 4 / 12 changes to 3 / 5 / 9
Force 9 : 2 / 6 / 18 changes to 4 / 7 / 13
Force 12 : 2 / 8 / 24 changes to 6 / 10 / 18

Binding
Force 1 : 2 / 2.66 / 4 changes to 2 / 2 / 2
Force 3 : 2 / 4 / 12 changes to 2 / 3 / 7
Force 6 : 2 / 8 / 24 changes to 3 / 7 / 15
Force 9 : 2 / 12 / 36 changes to 4 / 10 / 22
Force 12 : 2 / 16 / 48 changes to 6 / 14 / 30


Summoning minimum & average Drain increases, maximum decreases.
Binding minimum Drain increases, average & maximum decreases.

The minimum Drain increase tends to have a greater impact than the maximum decrease. More importantly, however, Drain becomes more consistant, allowing a conjurer to bind a Force 4 spirit without risk of instant-death, & bind a Force 12 without risk of minor headace.

Under Noticing Magic (SR4A, p. 179), it is stated that a Perception Test with a Threshold of (6-Force) can be used to notice the use of a Magical Skill. This applies both to Spellcasting and Summoning. This is often missed in play by the GM, when a character who wants to avoid the costs of Binding tends to rely on Summoning. You can call a bound spirit quickly and quietly, but Summoning draws attention.

I'm not quibbling with you so much as quibbling with the rule for Noticing Magic. I guess if there are special effects involved, sure, but if it's based on the gestures a magician can do in one second, I'm dubious.

Putting the quibble aside and accepting the RAW interpretation, I can't think of a single instance yet where the magician in my group summoned a spirit in a situation where it would be important if someone noticed. That is, they've all been in combat or in situations where only friendly characters were present.

That said, it will come up. Summoning a spirit in a crowded public place would get you some attention. Even if it doesn't manifest, I would think that the paranoid mundanes would run screaming if they thought an honest-to-Gaia magician was about to start throwing some mojo around.

Yes, I agree Summoning tends to happen among friendlies, but when it doesn't it can be a problem for anonymity.

Please note it is not a Visual or Audio Perception. Although the description indicates that you notice the gestures or muttering of the magician, this cannot be accurate because neither are neccessary unless the magician possesses the appropriate Geas.

In effect, what you notice is the increase of ambient mana in the area just prior to completion, something akin to a "6th-Sense". While mundanes may be able to detect it, most will not be able to actaully identify it, being something like a chill run down their spine, or the feeling of the sun shining on them briefly, or really anything else appropriate to the spell/spirit & magician.

Higher-level security should always be trained to recognize the use of magic, but the general populace will likely have no idea what happend beyond "it felt strange".

What about the 'shamanic mask'?

Is the summoning visible on the physical plane, if the magician summons during Astral Projection? If so, where? On his comatose body? In the physical location that corresponds to the astral location?

@Mullspellheimer: According to RAW only the sensation of an astral form passing through a physical one is unidentifiable unless the observer is trained for it. Spellcasting is identified as such if the perception test is successful.

@pbangarth: It gives +2 dice to the observer to notice magic.

That is a visual effect, but still mana-based; visual modifiers still technically do not apply. Mechanically no one possesses it unless they choose to. Thus, those who have it do so for two possible reasons: Flavor purposes, or the Intimidation bonus from "wielding obvious magic".

Personally, I have considered altering it so that it decreases the Perception threshold for magical skills by 2, and make it a 5-point Negative quality. I have not actually tested this yet, but I think it would work well.

I don't remember if there's a rule for it, but I would guess it would just add dice to the Perception Test?

Incorrect.

If you succeed on the Perception test, you notice the use of magic. At no point does it indicate that you identify it as magic.

For comparison, someone who has never heard of the Aurora Borealis will certainly be capable of seeing it, but despite doing so, will continue to have no idea what it is or what causes it.

The build in randomness of the number of hits higher force spirits can net on "a good day" leaves my players' mages very hesitatnt to summon anything over force 4 - anything more then 5 MIGHT knock them out. This "3timesforce" rule would bring the "safe" cap down to force 3 - anything more then 4 could knock you out. I'm not sure if I like this rule...

I also think they are just fine as is... however:

You want to really slow them down summoning? Make the drain always physical damage and declare it cannot be treated by first aid or magic. Suddenly a couple of "poor" dice rools later and you are staring 4-6 boxes of physical damage in the face. Couple this with having spirits habitually (say half the time?) use edge to resist being summoned and ALWAYS spend edge to resist binding and you will find yourself in a spirit light game and those that are around will usually be smaller. They are still there, and they are still kick arse, but people will deside they NEED one before they summon one.

Oh and woe betide the mage with spirit bane if this is the baseline. I'm not sure what happens when a spirit BURNS edge to resist the summoning test but it cannot be good for the summoner.

You quoted the relevant passage yourself. It talks about noticing someone using a magical skill, not the telltale signs of magic use. As such it is identified as magic if the Perception test is successful.

@Aurora borealis: If someone, who has no idea what the phenomenon is, is near an aurora borealis, he would not notice an aurora but a 'glowing thing in the sky'.

There was a HUGE argument about burning EDG by NPCs in another thread a while back. A very polarized set of opinions exists about the fairness of the GM burning what amounts to an unlimited pool of EDG among his unlimited NPCs.

Of course that only applies if the DM forgets that his NPCs are "real" and should only Burn Edge when they really fragging need to since it is not an unlimited source as far as the NPC himself is concerned.