Summoning spirits, Any "fix" that is not rp related ? Options

[Thanee]

However the mage could, for one example, utilize a F3 spirit to maintain a spell. That is effectively close to a free sustaining focus, (no ? prove me wrong please)

That kind of service requires Binding, which is not free (and unlike a Sustaining Focus, the services cannot be 'reused', you have to invest/pay more time/money to get new ones).

Bye
Thanee

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

That kind of service requires Binding, which is not free (and unlike a Sustaining Focus, the services cannot be 'reused', you have to invest/pay more time/money to get new ones).

Bye
Thanee

And don't forget that if you Spell Bind a Spirit, its force reduces by one each day, after 3 days, your Force 3 Spirit is destroyed (Has a Force of 0, which destroys it permanently)... do this a few times and you can expect to have the Spirit Bane Quality...

Also, the Spirit can only bind spells of the category that it represents...

If you go the Spell Sustaining route rather than the Spell Binding Route, then it will sustain a spell for its force in Rounds per service... this is a slightly better option, but its duration is truly insignificant for spells that you want to sustain with a sustaining focus...

Keep the Faith

[Dakka Dakka]

The easiest route to have a spirit sustain a spell is having the Spirit of Man cast and sustain it. Any unbound Spirit of Man can do it and can sustain it indefinitely, well until the next sunrise or sunset.

[Orcus Blackweath...]

In my current game, I play a Technomancer. We have implemented the rule of having high rating sprites roll edge to resist compiling and registering. After the first time that I nearly died from summoning a force 6 paladin sprite, I decided that discretion was called for. Now there are role playing opportunities as I try to convince my good friend the sprite that I am not so harsh a master, and to convince him to join me without the struggle (picture Ike and Tina?). As a rule I summon lower rating sprites unless I am willing to risk life and limb.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

The easiest route to have a spirit sustain a spell is having the Spirit of Man cast and sustain it. Any unbound Spirit of Man can do it and can sustain it indefinitely, well until the next sunrise or sunset.

This is True... But they only get the spell (one spell only) that the Caster Gives them, and ONLY a spirit of man can do it...
Spell Binding and Spell Sustaining are there for the traditions that don't get Spirits of Man, or for those characters that need more than a singel spell sustained at a time, and want the versatility of having more than Spirits of Man on Call...

Keep the Faith

[Dakka Dakka]

Actually it's one per 3 Force points and one Category isn't that much better. It's true though for the traditions that don't have spirits of man.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Actually it's one per 3 Force points and one Category isn't that much better. It's true though for the traditions that don't have spirits of man.

That would be true If the spirit is in increments of 3, but that is pretty uncommon... I could see a Spirit of Man with 2 Spells (Force 6-8 ) with no real problem, but beyond that it becomes problematic...

Keep the Faith

[Dakka Dakka]

That would be true If the spirit is in increments of 3, but that is pretty uncommon... I could see a Spirit of Man with 2 Spells (Force 6-8 ) with no real problem, but beyond that it becomes problematic...

True, my point was that two spells of any category are most of the time better than all spells from one category. Also having the spirit cast the spell does not reduce its Force and should not get the summoner into Spirit Bane territory.

[Semerkhet]

Is the issue that you want summoning to be more unpredictable (which will have the effect of encouraging people to summon lower level spirits or take injuries more often), or that you feel summoning is overpowered? If you think summoning's overpowered you could always just make spirits less powerful in some way while keeping the drain rules the same.

Spirits, per RAW, are super useful. In just four or five sessions, I've seen the magician in my group use spirits for Combat, Movement, Confusion, Search, and Concealment. His spirits have been instrumental in several situations, and that's been without binding any of them.

I can see why someone might want to de-emphasize spirits and reduce their usefulness. What do you, or anyone else, suggest as an alternative to messing with Summoning Drain?

[pbangarth]

Many years ago I GMed a group of guys who saw themselves as real pros of the game, and they treated newbies with disdain, particularly female newbies.

Until my then-wife, a relatively new SR player, played a few sessions with the bunch of them and taught them all (I learned a few new tricks too) how to properly use spirits. She and her stable of spirits stole the show and outperformed the rest of them combined. So, I can understand the feeling that Conjuring is overpowered and needs to be reigned in, though in the above example I think her outperformance of the rest of the team was more an artifact of their complacency and lack of imagination than any real difference in power among the PCs.

Nevertheless, I maintain that the advantages of Conjuring do not outweigh other skillsets in the game. What often does happen, in my experience, is that the balances built into Conjuring are not played to their fullest by the GM. Not only can this give the player a free ride, but it robs the GM of some fun. Drain is an important aspect of those balances, and should be watched carefully by the GM. As well there are other balances such as Tradition limitations, literal interpretation of commands by spirits, financial costs, time restraints, visibility of the act of Conjuration, effects of conjurer-spirit interaction on the long-term relationship between them, and probably more that don't come to me off the top of my head.

I also believe that there are spheres of action in which every archetype has the opportunity to shine above the others, and perhaps in a game in which a magician seems to be overpowering, maybe the GM needs to provide opportunities in which the magician cannot outshine another team member.

I think Magic in general and Conjuring in particular are not overpowered, and they don't need to be fixed.

[Semerkhet]

Many years ago I GMed a group of guys who saw themselves as real pros of the game, and they treated newbies with disdain, particularly female newbies.

Until my then-wife, a relatively new SR player, played a few sessions with the bunch of them and taught them all (I learned a few new tricks too) how to properly use spirits. She and her stable of spirits stole the show and outperformed the rest of them combined. So, I can understand the feeling that Conjuring is overpowered and needs to be reigned in, though in the above example I think her outperformance of the rest of the team was more an artifact of their complacency and lack of imagination than any real difference in power among the PCs.

Nevertheless, I maintain that the advantages of Conjuring do not outweigh other skillsets in the game. What often does happen, in my experience, is that the balances built into Conjuring are not played to their fullest by the GM. Not only can this give the player a free ride, but it robs the GM of some fun. Drain is an important aspect of those balances, and should be watched carefully by the GM. As well there are other balances such as Tradition limitations, literal interpretation of commands by spirits, financial costs, time restraints, visibility of the act of Conjuration, effects of conjurer-spirit interaction on the long-term relationship between them, and probably more that don't come to me off the top of my head.

I also believe that there are spheres of action in which every archetype has the opportunity to shine above the others, and perhaps in a game in which a magician seems to be overpowering, maybe the GM needs to provide opportunities in which the magician cannot outshine another team member.

I think Magic in general and Conjuring in particular are not overpowered, and they don't need to be fixed.

You make reasonable points. I don't feel strongly that spirits need a nerf, but I am curious about how people would go about it.

Minor quibble on "visibility of the act of Conjuration." Just how visible can an action that takes no more than three seconds be? In the case of a magician with Increased Reflexes running, an act of Conjuration lasting one second. That's not even enough time to do "big arms." (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Muspellsheimr]

For all Spirits, remove the Edge attribute and replace "Force" with "Force ÷ 2" for Physical and Mental attributes (minimum 1).
Change the Drain Value of Summoning & Binding to "(Force ÷ 2) + Hits*"
* = Spirit's Hits on the opposed test (not Net Hits)

For all Sprites, remove the Edge attribute and replace "Rating" with "Rating ÷ 2" for Matrix attributes (minimum 1).
Change the Fading Value of Compiling & Registering to "(Rating ÷ 2) + Hits*"
* = Sprite's Hits on the opposed test (not Net Hits)

A magician or technomancer may use Edge to augment a controlled spirit or sprite's test as if it where their own.




Edit: This alone should be enough to reduce spirits to an excelent resource & effective combatant, while removing the possiblility of them destroying balance. Thus far, it has worked quite well in my games.

That being said, it is actually intended to work with other House Rules I have in place. Of those, the most important is the change to Hardened Armor & Immunity. Immunity grants Hardened Armor equal to the creatures Magic attribute (opposed to RAW x2). Hardened Armor is now treated as automatic Hits on Resistance tests; it is affected by Penetration normally.

While role-playing aspects of the conjuring should be included, they are not appropriate for mechanical balance. They are variable from game to game, & often even within a game. Further, mechanical balance is, obviously, mechanical in effect. As such, it should work in conjunction with, but remain seperate from, anything without mechanical effects (fluff & cruch should compliment each other, not depend on each other).


For comparison on the Drain aspect:
Minimum / Average / Maximum
Summoning
Force 1 : 2 / 2 / 2 changes to 2 / 2 / 2
Force 3 : 2 / 2 / 6 changes to 2 / 2 / 4
Force 6 : 2 / 4 / 12 changes to 3 / 5 / 9
Force 9 : 2 / 6 / 18 changes to 4 / 7 / 13
Force 12 : 2 / 8 / 24 changes to 6 / 10 / 18

Binding
Force 1 : 2 / 2.66 / 4 changes to 2 / 2 / 2
Force 3 : 2 / 4 / 12 changes to 2 / 3 / 7
Force 6 : 2 / 8 / 24 changes to 3 / 7 / 15
Force 9 : 2 / 12 / 36 changes to 4 / 10 / 22
Force 12 : 2 / 16 / 48 changes to 6 / 14 / 30


Summoning minimum & average Drain increases, maximum decreases.
Binding minimum Drain increases, average & maximum decreases.

The minimum Drain increase tends to have a greater impact than the maximum decrease. More importantly, however, Drain becomes more consistant, allowing a conjurer to bind a Force 4 spirit without risk of instant-death, & bind a Force 12 without risk of minor headace.

[pbangarth]

Minor quibble on "visibility of the act of Conjuration." Just how visible can an action that takes no more than three seconds be? In the case of a magician with Increased Reflexes running, an act of Conjuration lasting one second. That's not even enough time to do "big arms." (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Under Noticing Magic (SR4A, p. 179), it is stated that a Perception Test with a Threshold of (6-Force) can be used to notice the use of a Magical Skill. This applies both to Spellcasting and Summoning. This is often missed in play by the GM, when a character who wants to avoid the costs of Binding tends to rely on Summoning. You can call a bound spirit quickly and quietly, but Summoning draws attention.

[Semerkhet]

Under Noticing Magic (SR4A, p. 179), it is stated that a Perception Test with a Threshold of (6-Force) can be used to notice the use of a Magical Skill. This applies both to Spellcasting and Summoning. This is often missed in play by the GM, when a character who wants to avoid the costs of Binding tends to rely on Summoning. You can call a bound spirit quickly and quietly, but Summoning draws attention.

I'm not quibbling with you so much as quibbling with the rule for Noticing Magic. I guess if there are special effects involved, sure, but if it's based on the gestures a magician can do in one second, I'm dubious.

Putting the quibble aside and accepting the RAW interpretation, I can't think of a single instance yet where the magician in my group summoned a spirit in a situation where it would be important if someone noticed. That is, they've all been in combat or in situations where only friendly characters were present.

That said, it will come up. Summoning a spirit in a crowded public place would get you some attention. Even if it doesn't manifest, I would think that the paranoid mundanes would run screaming if they thought an honest-to-Gaia magician was about to start throwing some mojo around.

[pbangarth]

Yes, I agree Summoning tends to happen among friendlies, but when it doesn't it can be a problem for anonymity.

[Muspellsheimr]

Please note it is not a Visual or Audio Perception. Although the description indicates that you notice the gestures or muttering of the magician, this cannot be accurate because neither are neccessary unless the magician possesses the appropriate Geas.

In effect, what you notice is the increase of ambient mana in the area just prior to completion, something akin to a "6th-Sense". While mundanes may be able to detect it, most will not be able to actaully identify it, being something like a chill run down their spine, or the feeling of the sun shining on them briefly, or really anything else appropriate to the spell/spirit & magician.

Higher-level security should always be trained to recognize the use of magic, but the general populace will likely have no idea what happend beyond "it felt strange".

[pbangarth]

What about the 'shamanic mask'?

[Dakka Dakka]

Is the summoning visible on the physical plane, if the magician summons during Astral Projection? If so, where? On his comatose body? In the physical location that corresponds to the astral location?

@Mullspellheimer: According to RAW only the sensation of an astral form passing through a physical one is unidentifiable unless the observer is trained for it. Spellcasting is identified as such if the perception test is successful.

@pbangarth: It gives +2 dice to the observer to notice magic.

[Muspellsheimr]

That is a visual effect, but still mana-based; visual modifiers still technically do not apply. Mechanically no one possesses it unless they choose to. Thus, those who have it do so for two possible reasons: Flavor purposes, or the Intimidation bonus from "wielding obvious magic".

Personally, I have considered altering it so that it decreases the Perception threshold for magical skills by 2, and make it a 5-point Negative quality. I have not actually tested this yet, but I think it would work well.

[Semerkhet]

What about the 'shamanic mask'?

I don't remember if there's a rule for it, but I would guess it would just add dice to the Perception Test?

[Muspellsheimr]

@Mullspellheimer: According to RAW only the sensation of an astral form passing through a physical one is unidentifiable unless the observer is trained for it. Spellcasting is identified as such if the perception test is successful.

Incorrect.

Noticing if someone is using a magical skill requires a Perception Test (p. 135) with a
threshold equal to 6 minus the magic’s Force. More powerful magic is easier to spot with
the gathered mana normally appearing as a disturbance or glowing aura in the air around the
caster. The gamemaster should apply additional modifiers as appropriate, or if the perceiver
is Awakened themselves (+2 dice), astrally perceiving (+2 dice), or if a shamanic mask is
evident (+2 dice).

If you succeed on the Perception test, you notice the use of magic. At no point does it indicate that you identify it as magic.

For comparison, someone who has never heard of the Aurora Borealis will certainly be capable of seeing it, but despite doing so, will continue to have no idea what it is or what causes it.

[Screaming Eagle]

The build in randomness of the number of hits higher force spirits can net on "a good day" leaves my players' mages very hesitatnt to summon anything over force 4 - anything more then 5 MIGHT knock them out. This "3timesforce" rule would bring the "safe" cap down to force 3 - anything more then 4 could knock you out. I'm not sure if I like this rule...

I also think they are just fine as is... however:

You want to really slow them down summoning? Make the drain always physical damage and declare it cannot be treated by first aid or magic. Suddenly a couple of "poor" dice rools later and you are staring 4-6 boxes of physical damage in the face. Couple this with having spirits habitually (say half the time?) use edge to resist being summoned and ALWAYS spend edge to resist binding and you will find yourself in a spirit light game and those that are around will usually be smaller. They are still there, and they are still kick arse, but people will deside they NEED one before they summon one.

Oh and woe betide the mage with spirit bane if this is the baseline. I'm not sure what happens when a spirit BURNS edge to resist the summoning test but it cannot be good for the summoner.

[Dakka Dakka]

If you succeed on the Perception test, you notice the use of magic. At no point does it indicate that you identify it as magic.

You quoted the relevant passage yourself. It talks about noticing someone using a magical skill, not the telltale signs of magic use. As such it is identified as magic if the Perception test is successful.

@Aurora borealis: If someone, who has no idea what the phenomenon is, is near an aurora borealis, he would not notice an aurora but a 'glowing thing in the sky'.

[pbangarth]

There was a HUGE argument about burning EDG by NPCs in another thread a while back. A very polarized set of opinions exists about the fairness of the GM burning what amounts to an unlimited pool of EDG among his unlimited NPCs.

[Ravor]

Of course that only applies if the DM forgets that his NPCs are "real" and should only Burn Edge when they really fragging need to since it is not an unlimited source as far as the NPC himself is concerned.