Cast spell, sustain, and then go astral? What happens? Options

[NewtonPulsifer]

I'd love some help and input on a rules question I have.

Rules question #1 - say I cast a physical spell and sustain it. Then I astrally project. Does that spell stay sustained?

#2 Also, what if I cast a mana spell on myself or someone else and sustain it (say a detection spell). Does that stay after the projection?

#3 What about when the spell is sustained by a sustaining focus or spirit? It doesn't seem necessary for a spirit to manifest if using the Spell Sustaining or Spell Binding service, so that might imply that one could cast, sustain, and then go astral (or alternatively, cast while astral, sustain, and then drop back into body).

Here's some source material I scrounged up:

From the faq:

Q: Do you need to maintain line of sight (or touch, with Touch range spells) to sustain a spell? What about Permanent spells?

A: No, once a spell is cast, you do not need to maintain touch or line of sight. You must maintain touch or line of sight when casting a Permanent spell, however, until the spell's effects become permanent.

From pg 184 of 20thAE there is also a limitation on moving the area of an area effect spell while it is sustained:

If an area-effect spell is sustained, the affected area may be moved
with a Complex Action, as long as it remains within line of sight.
Characters who “drop out” of the affected area are no longer affected
by the spell; characters who are “enveloped” by the area must defend
against the effects of the spell as appropriate.

From pg 187

A magician can call upon a spirit for Spell Sustaining in the appropriate
category. While the spirit maintains the spell, the magician
does not suffer any sustaining modifiers for that particular spell. One
service is used up for each period equal to the spirit’s Force in Combat
Turns that it sustains the spell. A Force 3 spirit that owes two services,
for example, can only sustain a spell for 6 Combat Turns. The magician
can take over sustaining the spell as the spirit finishes this service
(or at any time) so that the spell does not end. If a spirit is disrupted or
banished while sustaining a spell, the spell ends.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

We have always played with the caveat that Spells DO NOT CROSS the Astral Boundry (as stated in the Books)...

If you go Astral and are sustaining spells, then your spells go inert and fade... sustaining foci can maintain them, but you would not get the effect of body Augmenting/affecting spells (Most health spells) as they are augmenting your physical form, not your astral form... again, spells do not cross the boundry...

How we have used it, and it works out great for us...

I know that a lot of people do not agree with this... but there you go...

Keep the Faith...

[Neraph]

I largely agree with Timmy, but there are a number of Health Spells that are/would be really useful for anything Astral, namely: Improved Attribute (Willpower, Charisma, Intuition, Logic) (thereby enhancing your Astral stats), Improved Initative (3 IP are nice, but 4 are better), Resist Pain, and being able to use Decrease Attribute (Willpower, Charisma, Intuition, Logic) offensively while Astral.

But using the rule that spells do not cross the Astral Boundry causes an interesting problem: Posession, Materialization, and Inhabitation are all Physical powers. So that means that spirits are useless on the Physical plane, as they can never reach it (they start off Astral, and can't use Physical abilities while astral).

EDIT: I guess my point was that you need to be a little flexible in your use of the rules. I personally have no problem with continuing sustaining spells while astral. Spirit Powers are allowed to be sustained while the spirit goes astral, and heck, spirits are allowed to Materialize/Possess/Inhabit in the first place.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I largely agree with Timmy, but there are a number of Health Spells that are/would be really useful for anything Astral, namely: Improved Attribute (Willpower, Charisma, Intuition, Logic) (thereby enhancing your Astral stats), Improved Initative (3 IP are nice, but 4 are better), Resist Pain, and being able to use Decrease Attribute (Willpower, Charisma, Intuition, Logic) offensively while Astral.

But using the rule that spells do not cross the Astral Boundry causes an interesting problem: Posession, Materialization, and Inhabitation are all Physical powers. So that means that spirits are useless on the Physical plane, as they can never reach it (they start off Astral, and can't use Physical abilities while astral).

EDIT: I guess my point was that you need to be a little flexible in your use of the rules. I personally have no problem with continuing sustaining spells while astral. Spirit Powers are allowed to be sustained while the spirit goes astral, and heck, spirits are allowed to Materialize/Possess/Inhabit in the first place.

By RAW the only Spirit Power allowed to continue while they are astral is Guard... anything else is a Houserule, unless there has been errata on this subject...

As for the use of Spirit Materialization, Posession, etc, I think that they messed that up, but then, there is a whole topic on this subject buried in here somewhere, and it was beaten like a dead horrse if I remember correctly... It is an inconsistency, but there you go... In my interpretation, the use of the power makes them transition on the physical plane by default (Thus the Physical Aspect), as they cannot do so (Materialize or Possess) on the Astral Realm... Just Sayin'

Keep the Faith

[Kagetenshi]

If it works anything like SR3, projection is an Exclusive action, so you can't perform it with spells sustained.

~J

[NewtonPulsifer]

If it works anything like SR3, projection is an Exclusive action, so you can't perform it with spells sustained.

~J

Thanks, that helps - at least without direct info it gives a balance of evidence of what the designers probably intended. But then there are spell sustaining foci and spirits used to sustain/bind spells which leaves the question still vague in SR3.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Thanks, that helps - at least without direct info it gives a balance of evidence of what the designers probably intended. But then there are spell sustaining foci and spirits used to sustain/bind spells which leaves the question still vague in SR3.

In the End, Whatever works for you is best... but I do think that the intention is that sustained spells on the body do not translate over to teh Astral Realm, however you wnat to emulate that works, whether it is that the spells go away, or that teh spells stay up, bot no benefit is allowed...

Keep the Faith

[Falconer]

Tymeaus, please don't spout house rules as RAW. We've been over this in other threads.

You have a consistent theme in many of your posts. Bone the mage. Then you claim house rules as RAW.

There is nothing which says that once applied effects cannot be sustained, nothing. I want an exact page and cite. Your quote only deals w/ CASTING effects, NOT WITH SUSTAINING THEM. If necessarily I will dig up a link to the thread where Muspellsheimr and others went at you for pages on pages of this point. If it's a house rule, it's a house rule. DO NOT CLAIM IT"S RAW IN ANY WAY SHAPE OR FORM. It's intentionally misleading the newbs.


I can think of another physical power which 'breaks' the rule. Concealment, it's a physical power which specifically states it also works in the astral. There are a lot of health spells which are quickened/sustained like increase wil on astral enetities as it's the only way to buff those attributes up to higher levels.

The general rule is that a physical power must be applied while materialized for a spirit, but after that the spirit can dematerialize and sustain it.... good example here would be say an enhance movement power on an aircraft... even air spirit flight speeds aren't that high to keep up w/ the aircraft, astral movement rates are though. (our house rule is that the spirit has to stay within a reasonable distance either astral or material, no metaplanes hopping; again house rule).


If the mage continues to take the sustaining penalty for anything it keeps going.

Do we play w/ a house rule... yes, the only one is that the spirit must stay reasonably close to the action to sustain it's magic... IE: no cast it then run back home to the metaplane.


To help the new guy... here are the RAW answers. SR4 is not SR3... a lot changed and magic is generally a lot weaker now than in prior editions. (every new edition has seen magic get weaker and weaker)
1. yes it's sustained so long as you have it sustained (quickinging, take the -2 penalty, have someone else cast it on you and sustain, or have an active sustaining foci of the appropriate spell type w/ your astral form)
2. Yes they both stay, though the detection spell may not be overly usefull to you on the astral, also note you're sustaining two spells for a cumulative -4 penalty on your actions.
3. yes, though generally these are some of the worst uses of bound spirit powers (it torques off spirits making them more likely to gain you a spirit bane negative quality in which case the spirit may attempt to spend edge to resist your summoning in the future).

Related note: there's also 'innate spell' on spirits of man. That would allow for the spirit of man to cast increase reflexes and sustain it indefinitely for the use of a service.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Tymeaus, please don't spout house rules as RAW. We've been over this in other threads.

You have a consistent theme in many of your posts. Bone the mage. Then you claim house rules as RAW.

There is nothing which says that once applied effects cannot be sustained, nothing. I want an exact page and cite. Your quote only deals w/ CASTING effects, NOT WITH SUSTAINING THEM. If necessarily I will dig up a link to the thread where Muspellsheimr and others went at you for pages on pages of this point. If it's a house rule, it's a house rule. DO NOT CLAIM IT"S RAW IN ANY WAY SHAPE OR FORM. It's intentionally misleading the newbs.


I can think of another physical power which 'breaks' the rule. Concealment, it's a physical power which specifically states it also works in the astral. There are a lot of health spells which are quickened/sustained like increase wil on astral enetities as it's the only way to buff those attributes up to higher levels.

The general rule is that a physical power must be applied while materialized for a spirit, but after that the spirit can dematerialize and sustain it.... good example here would be say an enhance movement power on an aircraft... even air spirit flight speeds aren't that high to keep up w/ the aircraft, astral movement rates are though. (our house rule is that the spirit has to stay within a reasonable distance either astral or material, no metaplanes hopping; again house rule).


If the mage continues to take the sustaining penalty for anything it keeps going.

Do we play w/ a house rule... yes, the only one is that the spirit must stay reasonably close to the action to sustain it's magic... IE: no cast it then run back home to the metaplane.


To help the new guy... here are the RAW answers. SR4 is not SR3... a lot changed and magic is generally a lot weaker now than in prior editions. (every new edition has seen magic get weaker and weaker)
1. yes it's sustained so long as you have it sustained (quickinging, take the -2 penalty, have someone else cast it on you and sustain, or have an active sustaining foci of the appropriate spell type w/ your astral form)
2. Yes they both stay, though the detection spell may not be overly usefull to you on the astral, also note you're sustaining two spells for a cumulative -4 penalty on your actions.
3. yes, though generally these are some of the worst uses of bound spirit powers (it torques off spirits making them more likely to gain you a spirit bane negative quality in which case the spirit may attempt to spend edge to resist your summoning in the future).

Related note: there's also 'innate spell' on spirits of man. That would allow for the spirit of man to cast increase reflexes and sustain it indefinitely for the use of a service.

You know Falconer... Please read what I actually said, not what you interpreted... Don't take a High Horse and claim that you are the one with the absolute answer and that only your interpretation is correct, I have not done so, so why do you feel the need to do so... Threatening to bring up past threads where this discussion was never resolved does nothing but make you look like you are trying to prove you are better than some one else... I have always implied, if not come right out and said, that what I am posting is controversial and that not everyone might agree (Because of the previous thread you referenced) and I have not problems with that...

Show me a House RUle that I have Claimed as RAW... You will not find one...

As for your point about Susatained spells, yes, there is nothing that says you cannot sustain a spell after casting... however, any sustained spell effects will NEVER cross the boundry of Astral Space... so actual sustaining those effects will only be a detriment to the caster in astral space, unless they are sustained by foci or Quickening Metamagic...

My intentions are not to BONE THE MAGE as you imply, but to bring babalnce, as intended, to the various abilities... if you allow interpretation to override common sense in areas of balance, I would be surprised that you had anything other than Magic Wielders in your game... Balance makes the other archtypes both useful and desireable... once your magic becomes unbalanced, it is very hard to recover... Any of the interpretations that I provide are for maintaining balance and cohesion to the magical abilities in use...

The BOOK says that spells DO NOT CROSS BARRIERS... Period... at that point, it is interpretation, and ONLY Interpretation... You choose to allow it, I choose not to do so...

There is only one Critter power that EXPLICITLY STATES that you can sustain it from the Astral, that power is GUARD... Everything else is Interpretation... Period... You apparently allow other powers to be sustained by spirits across the barrier, I do not...

Concealment will hide astral shadows, so it works on both the Physical Realm and the Astral Realm... BUT IT CAN ONLY BE USED FROM THE PHYSICAL REALM... it is a physical power... thus not useable in Astral Space... its EFFECTS carry over to the Astral, because it obscures the SHADOW of the physically concealed character or object, or whatever, so it translates poorly to astral space, thus the penalty in Astral space as well...

Your interpretation and Musplheimr's interpretation differs from mine... that is all...
You fix the problem with House Rules, We do not, we use the common sense interpretation of the Book Explanations to enforce the rules... You may not agree with those interpretations, and that is OKAY...

No virulent counter-posts are necessary, but I did want to correct what you were saying there... Many of the Rules in Shadowrun are open to Interpretation, If your interpretation conflicts with a simpler Interpretation/Explanation that is okay, as long as you remember that bot are valid, it is just that you are not taking the simplest route... not a bad thing, maybe you like a more complex solutions... that is your perrogative...

As for your Answers to the OP, they only differ in Interpretation from mine, and what I told him is almost essentially what you told him with the exception of Point 2, which is that you interpret the books statement that Spell Effects can cross barriers, and I say that they cannot... we can both be correct here, but I take a simpler solution than you do...

If you want a spell to influence your astral form, cast it on the Astral.... Problem Solved...

And on your related note.. Innate spell and Indefinite benefit for a service... NO, a prolonged service ends at either sun up or sundown as a general guideline unless it is a Remote Service, which could take more time... sustaining a spell is not a remote service... so that would not work... you want to sustain a spell indefinitely use Metamagic to do so... that is what it is for afterall, and yes, it is susceptible to dispelling... thus are the vagaries of Magic... nothing is indefinite...

Keep the Faith

[Karoline]

Where does it say that spirits can't sustain any spells from the astral? I've never noticed it before.

I totally agree that you can't cast a spell from the astral and have it affect the physical, but I don't seem much reason that projecting would cause the spells to collapse. Now, if you cast improve willpower, I don't think that would carry over to the astral with you, because it is affecting your physical body and not your astral self.

But if you cast levitate on yourself, fly up, and then astrally project, I don't think you'd come crashing back to earth, though you most likely won't be able to control your movement.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Where does it say that spirits can't sustain any spells from the astral? I've never noticed it before.

I totally agree that you can't cast a spell from the astral and have it affect the physical, but I don't seem much reason that projecting would cause the spells to collapse. Now, if you cast improve willpower, I don't think that would carry over to the astral with you, because it is affecting your physical body and not your astral self.

But if you cast levitate on yourself, fly up, and then astrally project, I don't think you'd come crashing back to earth, though you most likely won't be able to control your movement.

AS I have told others here, Including Falconer and Muspelheimr, that is the interpretation of what the book states... it states that spells do not cross barriers... therefore it is interpretation on whether your sustained spells remain if you astrally project... In my opinion, I would say yes, if they are susteined by Foci or Quickening MEtamagic, but not if you are sustaining yourself... because they cannot cross barriers, and your consciousness has now crossed the barrier, you no longer have the mental contact necessary to do so...

The key is Conscious Control... you no longer have conscious control of your body, at all, and so the magic that relies upon that contact with your physically present consciousness fails when it is not there...

As for Spirits maintaining powers across the barrier, there is no sustaining penalty for powers for spirits, and it only Explicitly States that Guard can be Suatianed across the barrier, no other critter power states so... by logic, that means that Specific trumps general... in general, no abilities/spells can cross the astral barrier, they must be sustained on the side they are enacted... but specifically, Guard can be enacted on the Physical Realm, and then susteined by the spirit across the barrier... Specific trumps General... Note that it is the ONLY critter power with that Specific clause... If that was not the case, why would they Specifically annote that it was capable FOR THAT POWER? Logic Wins...

Keep the Faith

[Falconer]

No Tymeaus, you're telling him something that is at best a niche interpetation and worse claiming it's strictly RAW. I have nothing against house rules, we all play w/ them, we all use them. I just don't like blatantly misinforming a new player in his first or second post w/ a serious question.

Just because a spells EFFECT does not cross astral barriers does not mean that the caster cannot sustain it from there. You cannot take one sentence or snippet of a sentence then take it out of the context of it's paragraph and placement and base that as the argument for a radical reading of the rules. In thise case, you're taking "Step 7" section and putting an arbitrary limitation that IS NOT THERE. Even if an action may cause disruption and require a concentration check... last paragraph Wil + Spellcasting test (2) to keep it going. (generally not a hard test for spellcasters)

You have yet to provide a page or cite. I take offense and called you out on it, because you claim it as RAW. When you know full well it's a very very niche reading which most people in this forum do not accept. Especially among the rules lawyer types.


OP: your second paragraph.
I just glanced at SR4a... the rule for sustaining an area effect is similar... so long as the center of the area effect lies within your LOS. You can move the center w/in your LOS. Once it leaves your sight, all you can do is sustain it and can't move it anymore.

Here's an example... you're in a firefight, and you're playing support mage to your front line guys... you cast physical barrier and put up a magical wall. You can now move the wall so long as it stays in your LOS... now lets say you need to barricade a hallway and run... you move the wall to the hallway, and you run, while sustaining it. Most likely since physical barriers aren't the strongest of walls they'll break it down disrupting the spell (and ending your sustaining).

Disadvantage, you're taking a -2 penalty to your actions while sustaining. (and the barrier itself is a high drain spell)
Advantage: when they do break it, you'll know because the spell will suddenly drop and you'll lose the penalty.

Link to prior thread where this was discussed... http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?show...6640&st=200 (warning long, most of it is near the end).

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

No Tymeaus, you're telling him something that is at best a niche interpetation and worse claiming it's strictly RAW. I have nothing against house rules, we all play w/ them, we all use them. I just don't like blatantly misinforming a new player in his first or second post w/ a serious question.

Just because a spells EFFECT does not cross astral barriers does not mean that the caster cannot sustain it from there. You cannot take one sentence or snippet of a sentence then take it out of the context of it's paragraph and placement and base that as the argument for a radical reading of the rules. In thise case, you're taking "Step 7" section and putting an arbitrary limitation that IS NOT THERE. Even if an action may cause disruption and require a concentration check... last paragraph Wil + Spellcasting test (2) to keep it going. (generally not a hard test for spellcasters)

You have yet to provide a page or cite. I take offense and called you out on it, because you claim it as RAW. When you know full well it's a very very niche reading which most people in this forum do not accept. Especially among the rules lawyer types.

So, If that is not a rational explanation/Interpretation then why do the Developers EXPLICITLY state that the only POwer to be sustainable across the Astral Barrier is the Guard Power... It is EXPLICIT in its statement... which would imply that NO OTHER ABILITY can be sustained across the barrier...

Hard to argue that precedent now isn't it? If it is the ONLY one, then NO OTHERS may be sustained... Specific Trumps General...

I have no problem admitting actual House Riules when that is what they are... I do not see my interpretation as Very Niche, nor as a House Rule... I see it as the intent of the Developers, based on a Specific and Explicit notation (which has apparently been removed from SR4A, gotta go look at the eratta to verify... so My argument may now be even stronger), that that is the intended interpretation... Others may disagre, and that is okay, just don't tell me that it is not RAW... it IS RAW... and as such, it is open to interpretation... Some RAW needs no interpretation, Some Does... I don't see this as the Latter, but you do... to each his own...

Looking at Page 292, SR4A, Critters, Powers Section...

Note that in order for a critter to USE a power against a target, they MUST share the same "state:" Astral or Physical. Astral Forms CANNOT AFFECT physical Targets, and Vice Versa (See the Astral World, Page 191). Astral Critters THAT MATERIALIZE can affect physical targets, however, just as Dual Natured critters can interact with both the Physical and Astral Planes equally effectively.

Notice that the quote indicates that the critter must be Materialized to affect any physical taraget... so they MUST STAY MATERIALIZED to continue to have an effect, unless they are dual natured... Spirits are only Dual Natured when they are Materialized... so therefore they CANNOT Sustain Effects (Innate or otherwise) unless they are Materialized... That also throws out my exception of Guard, doesn't it... Unless I can find the reference that allowed it in SR4... which is currently elluding me at the moment...

In the section that desribes Duration of Powers... a Spirit does not have to be present or stay within line of sight to sustain...

Combined, these rules indicate that the abilities CAN be sustained from anywhere, but not for an indefinite amount of time (subject to Services owed), nor can they cross the Astral Barrier (MUST be in the Same State)...

There you go... Pages and Citations...

Keep the Faith

[darthmord]

Everything I've read between the BBB & Street Magic is that you must be legit to in order to activate the spirit power or cast the spell. Once the power / spell is active, you can sustain it WHERE EVER you want.

The example I remember seeing is you call up your spirit and task it to use Concealment. The spirit would have to move from its metaplace (unless it was hanging out with you in the Astral) to the Astral and then to the Physical, activate the Power, and then move back to the Astral to wait for further instructions.

It would continue to sustain the (physical realm) Power while on the Astral. It just needed to be on the Physical to activate it. The power can be sustained by the spirit whether it is on the Astral or the Physical. It cannot however sustain the Power if it goes back the Metaplanes.

Replace Power with Spell and you have a perfectly workable system with proven examples. It is logically consistent with RAW examples and easy to understand.

So you could cast Improve Willpower, sustain it, then astrally project. On a side note, it'll help you on the Astral since it's boosting your Willpower. Just remember, you'll have that spell sustaining penalty to worry about.

YMMV.

[Neraph]

I seem to remember in an FAQ or another such article the idea of having a spirit hit you with a power and then dismissing the spirit while retaining the power. It might have been the Guard power, but I swear it was either Movement or Concealment in question. I'll go hunting for it, but no guarentees about time here.

EDIT: Also, in order to try and keep some cool heads around here, simply remember: A soft answer turns away wrath, but grievous words stir up anger. If we are to have a proper "debate" or "discussion", then let's keep our answers and questions nice and non-offensive. I try this myself, but it doesn't always work, but if we can get everyone to put in an honest effort, we should see some real interesting things come out of here.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I seem to remember in an FAQ or another such article the idea of having a spirit hit you with a power and then dismissing the spirit while retaining the power. It might have been the Guard power, but I swear it was either Movement or Concealment in question. I'll go hunting for it, but no guarentees about time here.

EDIT: Also, in order to try and keep some cool heads around here, simply remember: A soft answer turns away wrath, but grievous words stir up anger. If we are to have a proper "debate" or "discussion", then let's keep our answers and questions nice and non-offensive. I try this myself, but it doesn't always work, but if we can get everyone to put in an honest effort, we should see some real interesting things come out of here.

Thanks Neraph... I needed that...

Keep the Faith