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> Troll-Sized Firearms, -When 'Metahuman Adjustment' just doesn't cover it.-
MikeKozar
post Oct 31 2009, 08:48 AM
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One of my players just sent me the write-up for his Troll's Modified Ruger Super Warhawk. He went into the Arsenal Weapon Mod rules and beefed it up a bit, but it still feels like a Human's gun with a big handle to me. I'd like to direct your attention to the cover art on Runner Havens - if I'm seeing the perspective right, the Troll on the cover is firing a one-handed pistol-grip firearm with a slide over two feet long. It is a Very Big Gun.

Seems to me that just saying '...and it's big enough for a Troll to shoot' doesn't really take into consideration the kind of firepower these guys can (and should) carry. Sure, most Trolls are going to pick up a Vindicator, an HMG, or a Panther XXL - but what about Troll-sized handguns? A Troll is going to treat a .50 like a .22, as far as recoil goes. So why isn't there a Super-Heavy Pistol for the boys who can can use 'em? You know there's a market, and I've never met a gunsmith who didn't get a twinkle in his eye regarding the quest for the bigger boom.

I think I'm going to wind up writing a revolver that uses the Heavy Weapon rules for my game. I'd like it to be scary, but not unbalancing. My current thinking is to raise the base damage from 5 to 6, and rule that firing it means resisting a 3S hit (Heavy Weapons, Arsenal, Pg. 162) - the Troll has 14 body to soak damage, so he could simply cash them in at 4:1 and automatically resist it, but any other character who picked it up would get their wrist broken. This is unlikely to come into play, but making the weapon dangerous to even fire gives it a certain style.

It would also be pretty cool if it had some sort of special rule for being loud - say, +2 to detect the weapon being fired due to the massive blast.

Now, I think a lot of people are going to do the math on this and ask themselves why anyone would bother for DV6. I mean, it's big, it's loud, it's dangerous to even be near, wildly illegal and possibly constitutes a war crime. The rest of you are writing that down to use as the sales pitch.

I'd like to get your opinions on the idea - too big, not big enough, good idea/bad idea. I'm also opening the floor to name suggestions. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Current Leader - The ARES RHINO.
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Tachi
post Oct 31 2009, 09:02 AM
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QUOTE (MikeKozar @ Oct 31 2009, 03:48 AM) *
One of my players just sent me the write-up for his Troll's Modified Ruger Super Warhawk. He went into the Arsenal Weapon Mod rules and beefed it up a bit, but it still feels like a Human's gun with a big handle to me. I'd like to direct your attention to the cover art on Runner Havens - if I'm seeing the perspective right, the Troll on the cover is firing a one-handed pistol-grip firearm with a slide over two feet long. It is a Very Big Gun.

Seems to me that just saying '...and it's big enough for a Troll to shoot' doesn't really take into consideration the kind of firepower these guys can (and should) carry. Sure, most Trolls are going to pick up a Vindicator, an HMG, or a Panther XXL - but what about Troll-sized handguns? A Troll is going to treat a .50 like a .22, as far as recoil goes. So why isn't there a Super-Heavy Pistol for the boys who can can use 'em? You know there's a market, and I've never met a gunsmith who didn't get a twinkle in his eye regarding the quest for the bigger boom.

I think I'm going to wind up writing a revolver that uses the Heavy Weapon rules for my game. I'd like it to be scary, but not unbalancing. My current thinking is to raise the base damage from 5 to 6, and rule that firing it means resisting a 3S hit (Heavy Weapons, Arsenal, Pg. 162) - the Troll has 14 body to soak damage, so he could simply cash them in at 4:1 and automatically resist it, but any other character who picked it up would get their wrist broken. This is unlikely to come into play, but making the weapon dangerous to even fire gives it a certain style.

It would also be pretty cool if it had some sort of special rule for being loud - say, +2 to detect the weapon being fired due to the massive blast.

Now, I think a lot of people are going to do the math on this and ask themselves why anyone would bother for DV6. I mean, it's big, it's loud, it's dangerous to even be near, wildly illegal and possibly constitutes a war crime. The rest of you are writing that down to use as the sales pitch.

I'd like to get your opinions on the idea - too big, not big enough, good idea/bad idea. I'm also opening the floor to name suggestions. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Current Leader - The ARES RHINO.

*Eyes twinkling*
I'm a gunsmith and I heartily approve the above post and this thread in general. Let me think about it and get back to you tomorrow. This is something I've been considering for awhile, but it's 4am and I need sleep.

Viva La BANG BANG!!!! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wacko.gif)
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JaronK
post Oct 31 2009, 09:18 AM
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I only play SR3, but in that game Trolls have no penalty for using two handed firearms in one hand. As such, a "troll heavy pistol" would actually be something like a sawed off shotgun with a bigger grip. A basic example would be a sawed off Defiance T-250... base power 9S, uses heavy pistol ranges. For comparison, a Heavy Pistol for a normal person would do 9M. So that works pretty well. Even better would be an SPAS-22 for burst fire.

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Stingray
post Oct 31 2009, 09:43 AM
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QUOTE (JaronK @ Oct 31 2009, 12:18 PM) *
I only play SR3, but in that game Trolls have no penalty for using two handed firearms in one hand. As such, a "troll heavy pistol" would actually be something like a sawed off shotgun with a bigger grip. A basic example would be a sawed off Defiance T-250... base power 9S, uses heavy pistol ranges. For comparison, a Heavy Pistol for a normal person would do 9M. So that works pretty well. Even better would be an SPAS-22 for burst fire.

JaronK

in SR4/SR4A trolls take -1 pool modifier when using 2-handed firearm in one hand (Arsenal pg. 162)
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Summerstorm
post Oct 31 2009, 09:55 AM
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Just use a shortened, modified sniper-rifle. Well.. i did so in SR3 (of course with approvel of a GM, since the rules forbade it). Nice 10S, one bullet, breach loaded, gold plated grip. Awesome for style. I called it the "Golden Silence". Because once it fired, everything went silent *g*.

As a GM i let people build their crazy stuff (if it is feasable). No need to hug the the rules and sleep with them... just guidelines. If you have a insanley strong, massive troll... maybe with a cyberarm, i let you fire ANy caliber out of a handgun. (But of course it will never be as good as a rifle, neither in power nor in accuracy).

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Snow_Fox
post Oct 31 2009, 12:38 PM
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I agree the rules already allow trolls advantages- like having a certain strength adding to recoil compensation-something a troll is already going to have almost as a given making them better shots with BF and FA weapons.

Trolls are a very small demigraphic andm ost are not runners so theywill not be buying what would be very expensive customized 'troll guns' sure the occassional runner might ocmission a special piece but nothing that say the Ares Macrotechnologies would mass produce, there isn't a market.

There are RL dumb ass big guns out there. my fav' examples is the Mataba Uniqua 6 and a snub nosed .500 magnum.
The Mataba is a semi-automatic .357 magnum. It was the most accurate hand gun I've ever owned. The big recoil was absorbed by the mechanism meaning not only did the recoil not throw your aim off but you oculd fire a lot of big bullets and not feel it. BUT the fragger was big. At the range they called it "The Italaian Monster" ad tere was no way i could carry it concealed.

The .500 Magnum is a ridiculous gimic gun anyway regardless of the barrell length. I mean my goodness the size of that slug- I edon't want to think of hte recoil, but to make that a SNUB NOSE-we're talking a 2 inch barrel mean accuracy goes all to hell. This is a gun that will only be useful if you're mugged by a hump back whale.

There are always guys who will want BIG GUN. It's like eating raw meat and watching porn for them. I can't tell you how many times I've gone to the range and seen some guy take out a freaking huge hand gun and then run he target just 3 yards down the range and start blazing away. I will admit to enjoying it when I then roll my target 50-60 feet down the range and take out my .380 or a 38 special and shoot just as accurately at that range as they are at 9 feet. Geez at that range you could throw the bullets and hit the target!
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KCKitsune
post Oct 31 2009, 01:46 PM
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I would say that a troll sized heavy pistol should be DV 7, but also make the availability 10... not as much of a market for one of these bad boys.
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Traul
post Oct 31 2009, 02:04 PM
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Here is an easy proposition:
- use the concealability and range of the weapon category
- use the damage code of one class bigger weapons.

Troll heavy pistols do shotgun damage.
SMGs do assault rifle damage.
And so on.

Mass production is not a problem. All you need is one troll runner/action trid star in LA who gets his custom guns from Ares. Then they can sell copies as signature models. Once one prototype has been pruchased, making copies costs almost nothing. Hell, that's what they do with guitars nowadays.
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Oct 31 2009, 04:55 PM
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QUOTE (Snow_Fox @ Oct 31 2009, 06:38 AM) *
I agree the rules already allow trolls advantages- like having a certain strength adding to recoil compensation-something a troll is already going to have almost as a given making them better shots with BF and FA weapons.

Trolls are a very small demigraphic andm ost are not runners so theywill not be buying what would be very expensive customized 'troll guns' sure the occassional runner might ocmission a special piece but nothing that say the Ares Macrotechnologies would mass produce, there isn't a market.

There are RL dumb ass big guns out there. my fav' examples is the Mataba Uniqua 6 and a snub nosed .500 magnum.
The Mataba is a semi-automatic .357 magnum. It was the most accurate hand gun I've ever owned. The big recoil was absorbed by the mechanism meaning not only did the recoil not throw your aim off but you oculd fire a lot of big bullets and not feel it. BUT the fragger was big. At the range they called it "The Italaian Monster" ad tere was no way i could carry it concealed.

The .500 Magnum is a ridiculous gimic gun anyway regardless of the barrell length. I mean my goodness the size of that slug- I edon't want to think of hte recoil, but to make that a SNUB NOSE-we're talking a 2 inch barrel mean accuracy goes all to hell. This is a gun that will only be useful if you're mugged by a hump back whale.

There are always guys who will want BIG GUN. It's like eating raw meat and watching porn for them. I can't tell you how many times I've gone to the range and seen some guy take out a freaking huge hand gun and then run he target just 3 yards down the range and start blazing away. I will admit to enjoying it when I then roll my target 50-60 feet down the range and take out my .380 or a 38 special and shoot just as accurately at that range as they are at 9 feet. Geez at that range you could throw the bullets and hit the target!



Yeah, I was always amazed at the American Derringer in 30-30 or 45-70 Caliber, you can see the Bullet almost protruding from the Barrel... and massive recoil for something that you can about conceal in the palm of your hand...

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Tias
post Oct 31 2009, 05:03 PM
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QUOTE (MikeKozar @ Oct 31 2009, 09:48 AM) *
Now, I think a lot of people are going to do the math on this and ask themselves why anyone would bother for DV6. I mean, it's big, it's loud, it's dangerous to even be near, wildly illegal and possibly constitutes a war crime. The rest of you are writing that down to use as the sales pitch.


Amen, put me down for that second part (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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Angry Ork
post Oct 31 2009, 05:08 PM
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http://www.vincelewis.net/60magnum.html

there you go, a troll heavy pistol (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Oct 31 2009, 05:22 PM
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QUOTE (MikeKozar @ Oct 31 2009, 02:48 AM) *
It would also be pretty cool if it had some sort of special rule for being loud - say, +2 to detect the weapon being fired due to the massive blast.

Now, I think a lot of people are going to do the math on this and ask themselves why anyone would bother for DV6. I mean, it's big, it's loud, it's dangerous to even be near, wildly illegal and possibly constitutes a war crime. The rest of you are writing that down to use as the sales pitch.



Not sure where you are going here... I have fired very large caliber, short barreled guns, and though they are loud, they are no more dangerous to be around than a small caliber handgun... and how would they be wildly illegal, or constitute a war crime? There are Very LArge Handguns that are neither illegal, nor have the potential to constitute a war crime... hell, I have a LArge caliber Black Powder handgun, that is even bigger (in Caliber) than the Current Anti-Material rifle in use today (Which is against the Conventions to use against people...so yeah, I was shooting his Radio to remove my opposition's options for communication, Not my fault if it penetrated and blew out his chest, and the guy's next to him), and yet it is not illegal to shoot someone with it if I have just cause to do so...

I am thinking that you have no real experience in this area (Thoguh I could be wrong and apoligize if I am)...

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MikeKozar
post Oct 31 2009, 07:16 PM
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QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Oct 31 2009, 10:22 AM) *
I am thinking that you have no real experience in this area (Thoguh I could be wrong and apoligize if I am)...


I was being over-the-top, yeah. Actually, I was stealing that whole bit from this very early Schlock Mercenary strip where an attempt to talk someone out of buying a ridiculously overpowered weapon doesn't work as planned.

What I was thinking was that if I used the current build ( +1DV, Heavy Weps(3S to user), +2 to Giving away position ) there are more penalties then advantages, and the advantages are the sort of thing you could get by going up to a shotgun or rifle *without* dealing with the penalties. In strict numbers, it's a terrible weapon - however, from a roleplaying perspective, I think the penalties are hilarious and awesome.
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Oct 31 2009, 07:20 PM
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QUOTE (MikeKozar @ Oct 31 2009, 01:16 PM) *
I was being over-the-top, yeah. Actually, I was stealing that whole bit from this very early Schlock Mercenary strip where an attempt to talk someone out of buying a ridiculously overpowered weapon doesn't work as planned.

What I was thinking was that if I used the current build ( +1DV, Heavy Weps(3S to user), +2 to Giving away position ) there are more penalties then advantages, and the advantages are the sort of thing you could get by going up to a shotgun or rifle *without* dealing with the penalties. In strict numbers, it's a terrible weapon - however, from a roleplaying perspective, I think the penalties are hilarious and awesome.


Sure... I can see that... thoguh I would not use the Damaging rule (3S to User)... teh extra mass of the weapon (for troll modification) would generally keep this from happening, thoguh I would definitely use Heavy Weapon Recol Rules (Twice Unmodified Modifier)

I was always a fan of 2 Double-Barreled Sawed Off, 10-Guage Shotguns for my Troll... they were pretty brutal (Built on 3rd Edition), and worked pretty well...

HAd great role-playing potential too...

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WyldKnight
post Oct 31 2009, 07:20 PM
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I think the body limit should be lower then 14 because not every troll has that much chrome in their body. It should be high enough that most other metahumans except ones with heavy cyber can use it but low enough so that even a non augmented troll could fire the gun. I think the body should be somewhere between 8 and 10. Maybe look something like this?

Good Samaritan
Damage: 8p
AP: -3
Mode: SA (SS if the person has body lower then 8 )
RC: 1 (Electronic Firing)
Ammo: 7(cy)
Availability: 10R
Cost: 1500

If someone fires this gun without a body of at least 8 for every two points less (round down) they receive one point of stun damage that cannot be resisted.

That look ok? And not about "well why is it a revolver" I just did that cuz I felt like it. I mean do you think it would look something like that.
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Oct 31 2009, 07:23 PM
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QUOTE (WyldKnight @ Oct 31 2009, 01:20 PM) *
I think the body limit should be lower then 14 because not every troll has that much chrome in their body. It should be high enough that most other metahumans except ones with heavy cyber can use it but low enough so that even a non augmented troll could fire the gun. I think the body should be somewhere between 8 and 10. Maybe look something like this?

Good Samaritan
Damage: 8p
AP: -3
Mode: SA (SS if the person has body lower then 8 )
RC: 1 (Electronic Firing)
Ammo: 7(cy)
Availability: 10R
Cost: 1500

If someone fires this gun without a body of at least 8 for every two points less (round down) they receive one point of stun damage that cannot be resisted.

That look ok? And not about "well why is it a revolver" I just did that cuz I felt like it. I mean do you think it would look something like that.



Not a big fan of Body Requirements for weapons... with proper technique, anyone can fire any personal weapon (With reason, of course, a 3 year old will not be firing a Barrett Light Fifty for instance)... it is simply a matter of training...


Personally, I would go with Heavy Recoil Modifiers instead... i.e Double uncompensated recoil for penalties, and don't let the first shot be compensated unless they have RC...

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WyldKnight
post Oct 31 2009, 07:26 PM
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Well were talking about something made for trolls right? Specifically a handgun. While yes with proper technique anyone can fire most guns if something is big enough and heavy enough that merely pulling the trigger is a chore then all the technique in the world wont help you without a brace of some sort.

Hmm, I may take that instead.
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MikeKozar
post Oct 31 2009, 07:36 PM
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The source of the Body 14 was not intended to be a hard and fast ruling - that's just how big the player's character is. I was looking at the Heavy Weapon optional rules in Arsenal (161) to give the build some authority - it says that to carry and fire a Heavy Weapon without a gyromount requires Strength and Body of 8, and doing so causes the user to resist stun damage and knockdown at half the weapon's DV. Since I happen to know he can soak a 3S hit without pausing the game to roll, it looked like a cool option.

I know there are some weapons out there chambered for anti-material loads, and I'm trying to get away from that. This isn't supposed to be a one-handed Assault Cannon - just the biggest, meanest pistol out there, for the biggest, meanest Troll out there. I'm thinking 'sidearm' here - like if the enemy sniper manages a called shot to break your minigun, you can still pull out something impressive.
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Sengir
post Oct 31 2009, 07:48 PM
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QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Oct 31 2009, 06:22 PM) *
the Current Anti-Material rifle in use today (Which is against the Conventions to use against people...

Common urban legend, but legend nevertheless. Unless the round happens to be poisoned or hollow point there is nothing illegal about shooting enemy combatants with a 20mm round (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Oct 31 2009, 08:04 PM
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QUOTE (Sengir @ Oct 31 2009, 01:48 PM) *
Common urban legend, but legend nevertheless. Unless the round happens to be poisoned or hollow point there is nothing illegal about shooting enemy combatants with a 20mm round (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)



Not really, it is a Battlefield Legend, Not Urban Legen... but there you go... and Hollow Points are not illegal...

Besides, using a 20mm round against a person is a waste of munitions... especially when a 5.56 or 7.62 is way cheaper...
or a grenade for that awesome area of effect, or a bouncing betty, or .... well, you get the point... besides, I am not in the habit of using a 20mm rifle so that does pose an issue... Though it is really only slightly bigger (.05 Caliber bigger, .7874 Caliber) than a 12 guage shotgun slug (.72 Caliber), but it does tend to have a much greater mass involved...

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Sengir
post Oct 31 2009, 08:37 PM
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QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Oct 31 2009, 09:04 PM) *
Not really, it is a Battlefield Legend, Not Urban Legen[d]

And what about urban battlefields? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

QUOTE
and Hollow Points are not illegal...

They are, "bullets which expand or flatten easily in the human body" are explicitly forbidden by the Hague Conventions. Together with poisoned weapons these are the only kinds of banned ammunition, however. All the legends about AMRs being banned for anti-personal use or illegal high speed munition which kills by "neural shock" even from a grazing wound are just that, legends. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
(And the bans only apply in warfare and when both sides are signatories)
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Axl
post Oct 31 2009, 08:44 PM
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Sure, hollow point isn't illegal, but it is illegal to use them in war against enemy soldiers.
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Oct 31 2009, 09:22 PM
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QUOTE (Axl @ Oct 31 2009, 02:44 PM) *
Sure, hollow point isn't illegal, but it is illegal to use them in war against enemy soldiers.



Point Taken...
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WyldKnight
post Oct 31 2009, 09:29 PM
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That was a pun wasn't it?

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EKBT81
post Oct 31 2009, 10:20 PM
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QUOTE (MikeKozar @ Oct 31 2009, 09:48 AM) *
A Troll is going to treat a .50 like a .22, as far as recoil goes.


I'm not sure about that. I'd think that the energy difference between the two rounds is still much bigger than the difference in "anatomical" resilience to recoil between trolls and humans.

What about the Magnum Research BFR revolvers? Those are already what I'd consider a Troll handgun. Just enlarge the trigger guard.
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