One of my players just sent me the write-up for his Troll's Modified Ruger Super Warhawk. He went into the Arsenal Weapon Mod rules and beefed it up a bit, but it still feels like a Human's gun with a big handle to me. I'd like to direct your attention to the cover art on Runner Havens - if I'm seeing the perspective right, the Troll on the cover is firing a one-handed pistol-grip firearm with a slide over two feet long. It is a Very Big Gun.

Seems to me that just saying '...and it's big enough for a Troll to shoot' doesn't really take into consideration the kind of firepower these guys can (and should) carry. Sure, most Trolls are going to pick up a Vindicator, an HMG, or a Panther XXL - but what about Troll-sized handguns? A Troll is going to treat a .50 like a .22, as far as recoil goes. So why isn't there a Super-Heavy Pistol for the boys who can can use 'em? You know there's a market, and I've never met a gunsmith who didn't get a twinkle in his eye regarding the quest for the bigger boom.

I think I'm going to wind up writing a revolver that uses the Heavy Weapon rules for my game. I'd like it to be scary, but not unbalancing. My current thinking is to raise the base damage from 5 to 6, and rule that firing it means resisting a 3S hit (Heavy Weapons, Arsenal, Pg. 162) - the Troll has 14 body to soak damage, so he could simply cash them in at 4:1 and automatically resist it, but any other character who picked it up would get their wrist broken. This is unlikely to come into play, but making the weapon dangerous to even fire gives it a certain style.

It would also be pretty cool if it had some sort of special rule for being loud - say, +2 to detect the weapon being fired due to the massive blast.

Now, I think a lot of people are going to do the math on this and ask themselves why anyone would bother for DV6. I mean, it's big, it's loud, it's dangerous to even be near, wildly illegal and possibly constitutes a war crime. The rest of you are writing that down to use as the sales pitch.

I'd like to get your opinions on the idea - too big, not big enough, good idea/bad idea. I'm also opening the floor to name suggestions.

Current Leader - The ARES RHINO.

*Eyes twinkling*
I'm a gunsmith and I heartily approve the above post and this thread in general. Let me think about it and get back to you tomorrow. This is something I've been considering for awhile, but it's 4am and I need sleep.

Viva La BANG BANG!!!!

I only play SR3, but in that game Trolls have no penalty for using two handed firearms in one hand. As such, a "troll heavy pistol" would actually be something like a sawed off shotgun with a bigger grip. A basic example would be a sawed off Defiance T-250... base power 9S, uses heavy pistol ranges. For comparison, a Heavy Pistol for a normal person would do 9M. So that works pretty well. Even better would be an SPAS-22 for burst fire.

JaronK

in SR4/SR4A trolls take -1 pool modifier when using 2-handed firearm in one hand (Arsenal pg. 162)

Just use a shortened, modified sniper-rifle. Well.. i did so in SR3 (of course with approvel of a GM, since the rules forbade it). Nice 10S, one bullet, breach loaded, gold plated grip. Awesome for style. I called it the "Golden Silence". Because once it fired, everything went silent *g*.

As a GM i let people build their crazy stuff (if it is feasable). No need to hug the the rules and sleep with them... just guidelines. If you have a insanley strong, massive troll... maybe with a cyberarm, i let you fire ANy caliber out of a handgun. (But of course it will never be as good as a rifle, neither in power nor in accuracy).

I agree the rules already allow trolls advantages- like having a certain strength adding to recoil compensation-something a troll is already going to have almost as a given making them better shots with BF and FA weapons.

Trolls are a very small demigraphic andm ost are not runners so theywill not be buying what would be very expensive customized 'troll guns' sure the occassional runner might ocmission a special piece but nothing that say the Ares Macrotechnologies would mass produce, there isn't a market.

There are RL dumb ass big guns out there. my fav' examples is the Mataba Uniqua 6 and a snub nosed .500 magnum.
The Mataba is a semi-automatic .357 magnum. It was the most accurate hand gun I've ever owned. The big recoil was absorbed by the mechanism meaning not only did the recoil not throw your aim off but you oculd fire a lot of big bullets and not feel it. BUT the fragger was big. At the range they called it "The Italaian Monster" ad tere was no way i could carry it concealed.

The .500 Magnum is a ridiculous gimic gun anyway regardless of the barrell length. I mean my goodness the size of that slug- I edon't want to think of hte recoil, but to make that a SNUB NOSE-we're talking a 2 inch barrel mean accuracy goes all to hell. This is a gun that will only be useful if you're mugged by a hump back whale.

There are always guys who will want BIG GUN. It's like eating raw meat and watching porn for them. I can't tell you how many times I've gone to the range and seen some guy take out a freaking huge hand gun and then run he target just 3 yards down the range and start blazing away. I will admit to enjoying it when I then roll my target 50-60 feet down the range and take out my .380 or a 38 special and shoot just as accurately at that range as they are at 9 feet. Geez at that range you could throw the bullets and hit the target!

I would say that a troll sized heavy pistol should be DV 7, but also make the availability 10... not as much of a market for one of these bad boys.

Here is an easy proposition:
- use the concealability and range of the weapon category
- use the damage code of one class bigger weapons.

Troll heavy pistols do shotgun damage.
SMGs do assault rifle damage.
And so on.

Mass production is not a problem. All you need is one troll runner/action trid star in LA who gets his custom guns from Ares. Then they can sell copies as signature models. Once one prototype has been pruchased, making copies costs almost nothing. Hell, that's what they do with guitars nowadays.

Yeah, I was always amazed at the American Derringer in 30-30 or 45-70 Caliber, you can see the Bullet almost protruding from the Barrel... and massive recoil for something that you can about conceal in the palm of your hand...

Keep the Faith

Amen, put me down for that second part

http://www.vincelewis.net/60magnum.html

there you go, a troll heavy pistol

Not sure where you are going here... I have fired very large caliber, short barreled guns, and though they are loud, they are no more dangerous to be around than a small caliber handgun... and how would they be wildly illegal, or constitute a war crime? There are Very LArge Handguns that are neither illegal, nor have the potential to constitute a war crime... hell, I have a LArge caliber Black Powder handgun, that is even bigger (in Caliber) than the Current Anti-Material rifle in use today (Which is against the Conventions to use against people...so yeah, I was shooting his Radio to remove my opposition's options for communication, Not my fault if it penetrated and blew out his chest, and the guy's next to him), and yet it is not illegal to shoot someone with it if I have just cause to do so...

I am thinking that you have no real experience in this area (Thoguh I could be wrong and apoligize if I am)...

Keep the Faith

I was being over-the-top, yeah. Actually, I was stealing that whole bit from this very early Schlock Mercenary strip where an attempt to talk someone out of buying a ridiculously overpowered weapon doesn't work as planned.

What I was thinking was that if I used the current build ( +1DV, Heavy Weps(3S to user), +2 to Giving away position ) there are more penalties then advantages, and the advantages are the sort of thing you could get by going up to a shotgun or rifle *without* dealing with the penalties. In strict numbers, it's a terrible weapon - however, from a roleplaying perspective, I think the penalties are hilarious and awesome.

Sure... I can see that... thoguh I would not use the Damaging rule (3S to User)... teh extra mass of the weapon (for troll modification) would generally keep this from happening, thoguh I would definitely use Heavy Weapon Recol Rules (Twice Unmodified Modifier)

I was always a fan of 2 Double-Barreled Sawed Off, 10-Guage Shotguns for my Troll... they were pretty brutal (Built on 3rd Edition), and worked pretty well...

HAd great role-playing potential too...

Keep the Faith

I think the body limit should be lower then 14 because not every troll has that much chrome in their body. It should be high enough that most other metahumans except ones with heavy cyber can use it but low enough so that even a non augmented troll could fire the gun. I think the body should be somewhere between 8 and 10. Maybe look something like this?

Good Samaritan
Damage: 8p
AP: -3
Mode: SA (SS if the person has body lower then 8 )
RC: 1 (Electronic Firing)
Ammo: 7(cy)
Availability: 10R
Cost: 1500

If someone fires this gun without a body of at least 8 for every two points less (round down) they receive one point of stun damage that cannot be resisted.

That look ok? And not about "well why is it a revolver" I just did that cuz I felt like it. I mean do you think it would look something like that.

Not a big fan of Body Requirements for weapons... with proper technique, anyone can fire any personal weapon (With reason, of course, a 3 year old will not be firing a Barrett Light Fifty for instance)... it is simply a matter of training...


Personally, I would go with Heavy Recoil Modifiers instead... i.e Double uncompensated recoil for penalties, and don't let the first shot be compensated unless they have RC...

Keep the Faith

Well were talking about something made for trolls right? Specifically a handgun. While yes with proper technique anyone can fire most guns if something is big enough and heavy enough that merely pulling the trigger is a chore then all the technique in the world wont help you without a brace of some sort.

Hmm, I may take that instead.

The source of the Body 14 was not intended to be a hard and fast ruling - that's just how big the player's character is. I was looking at the Heavy Weapon optional rules in Arsenal (161) to give the build some authority - it says that to carry and fire a Heavy Weapon without a gyromount requires Strength and Body of 8, and doing so causes the user to resist stun damage and knockdown at half the weapon's DV. Since I happen to know he can soak a 3S hit without pausing the game to roll, it looked like a cool option.

I know there are some weapons out there chambered for anti-material loads, and I'm trying to get away from that. This isn't supposed to be a one-handed Assault Cannon - just the biggest, meanest pistol out there, for the biggest, meanest Troll out there. I'm thinking 'sidearm' here - like if the enemy sniper manages a called shot to break your minigun, you can still pull out something impressive.

Common urban legend, but legend nevertheless. Unless the round happens to be poisoned or hollow point there is nothing illegal about shooting enemy combatants with a 20mm round

Not really, it is a Battlefield Legend, Not Urban Legen... but there you go... and Hollow Points are not illegal...

Besides, using a 20mm round against a person is a waste of munitions... especially when a 5.56 or 7.62 is way cheaper...
or a grenade for that awesome area of effect, or a bouncing betty, or .... well, you get the point... besides, I am not in the habit of using a 20mm rifle so that does pose an issue... Though it is really only slightly bigger (.05 Caliber bigger, .7874 Caliber) than a 12 guage shotgun slug (.72 Caliber), but it does tend to have a much greater mass involved...

Keep the Faith

And what about urban battlefields?


They are, "bullets which expand or flatten easily in the human body" are explicitly forbidden by the Hague Conventions. Together with poisoned weapons these are the only kinds of banned ammunition, however. All the legends about AMRs being banned for anti-personal use or illegal high speed munition which kills by "neural shock" even from a grazing wound are just that, legends.
(And the bans only apply in warfare and when both sides are signatories)

Sure, hollow point isn't illegal, but it is illegal to use them in war against enemy soldiers.

Point Taken...

That was a pun wasn't it?

I'm not sure about that. I'd think that the energy difference between the two rounds is still much bigger than the difference in "anatomical" resilience to recoil between trolls and humans.

What about the Magnum Research BFR revolvers? Those are already what I'd consider a Troll handgun. Just enlarge the trigger guard.

if he's smart, he'll say 'yes' even if it wasn't

I know I would.

Speaking of troll sized guns what do you think the stats would be for Hell Boys revolver? I wouldn't mind that beast in a FUBAR situation.

I am proposing "controllability" to be proportional to the ratio of the shooter Mass to the weapon's muzzle energy.

An average troll is approx 3.8 times the mass of the average human. Therefore:

A troll can fire a handgun chambered in .454 Casull as easily as a human can fire one in .40 S&W.

A troll can fire a handgun chambered in .500 S&W Magnum as easily as a human can fire one in .357 Magnum.

A troll can fire a rifle chambered in .338 Lapua Magnum, as easily as a human fires one in 5.56mm.

A troll can fire a rifle chambered in .50 BMG as easily as a human fires one in .300 Winchester Magnum.

At the top end, a troll can fire a 20mm autocannon as easily as a human fires a .50BMG sniper rifle.

That with most soldiers being outfitted with body armor, hollow-points loose a good degree of effectiveness since they tend to mushroom out and that hinders armor penetration. More economical to a bullet with a hard core and tumbles or fragments after passing through some protective ballistic cloth or armor plate as it will go through armor and still have a decent ability to take someone down.

And as for large caliber revolvers, they are mainly aimed toward the crazies that like to live where there are big nasties like mountain lions and anything that is larger and denser then a black bear. AKA Kodiac's and Grizzlies bears, wont be dropping one of those with a .357 mag or a .44 mag that us for sure. The 4" barrel length is meant to make it easier to carry. This idea is nothing new as they been doing it in Africa for a long time, they "REQUIRE" you to have something as big if not bigger then a .50 cal as anything smaller will not drop half the big cats they got. Favorite back up gun is a break action .500 Nitro Express.

Yes It Was...

Keep the Faith

That might be just a little hyperbolic. A number of years back a similar topic came up and Raygun or one of the other firearms enthusiasts of the site calculated that IIRC under Shadowrun Three rules the average troll would suffer comparable recoil firing a .44 Magnum handgun that an average human would firing a 9mm one. As I said though this was a few years back so my recollection is somewhat hazy.

African big game certainly requires more powerful rifles than most North American big game, but nothing (even an elephant) requires .50BMG. Common "African Rifles" generate 1/3 to 1/2 the energy of a .50 BMG.

Well, the mentioned .500 Nitro Express is in that range, at least according to wikipedia. However, the minimum caliber acceptable for the "Big Five" (lion, elephant, buffalo, leopard and rhino) is IIRC the .375 Holland & Holland Magnum. And AFAIK at least for the african big cats, the problem is rather getting a good shot at them than their "bullet resistance". That is more of a problem with elephants, buffalos, and rhinos.

This....

Keep the Faith

Well I stand corrected there, but the main point is that for big bad critters require big stupid powerfull rounds to be stop reliably. Not saying you'd want to use a .50BMG to shoot a big cat or a bear with though I am sure the effects would be knee jerkingly funny to some, myself no but some. But the S&W X-frames are aimed more or less at those kinda customers that need one shot drops since more then that means you're fragged, and also at the dumbasses that want to try and be bad asses. [Sarc]I hear being mauled to death is a bad and very painful way to die.[/sarc]

I'm kind of surprised, here - the general consensus I'm hearing is that Trolls aren't big enough to use calibers larger then are already available in 2009 for unmodified humans.

Eichiro Hatamoto II modified for a 5 round cylinder is what I've used for the Hellboy gun in the past. Ran it at 2,000

Though, I do like the idea of a "Troll Gun" as a large caliber weapon which is poorly designed enough that if anyone but a troll tries to use it, it'll hurt them.

This has always been a problem in SR, but its really part of SR's more pervasive firearms wonkiness. Its more of a game balance issue.

I'm not sure I'd say that, but just that it is unlkikely there would be neough on a market to support the R&D and manufacturing when it's just easier to use the same R&D for a 'normal' handgun and just make the grip and trigger guard bigger.

I understand your point, but you shouldn't generalize so much about gun nuts, it could be dangerous. The .500 Mag is intended as a big game hunting pistol, but, I know a guy in Colorado Springs who carries a snub-nose .500 as his concealed carry weapon. I've also seen him put 5 rounds through the x-ring at 30 yards with it in under 7 seconds. Of course, he looks kinda like a mountain with legs and arms... so, uh, yeah. To each his own, he handles it like most people handle a .45. On the other hand, If I lived in Alaska I'd buy a .500 mag, and I'd never leave my house without it.


My buddies dad has an antique .410/.45 Long Colt double-barrel derringer that he uses as a snake gun when he's out on the prairie. The ends of the .410 shells are only 1/8 of an inch from the muzzle. Unfortunately, he has refused to sell to to me.


Okay, here's my thoughts on a troll pistol. Note: I may be overestimating a troll's capability, but I don't think so. Also, I haven't been able to find my copy of Hatcher's Notebook since I moved so this will be little more than a guess. Second also, I'm not particularly familiar with the .50 BMG, I specialize in tactical customization not large caliber rifles, so any of you more familiar with it, especially you military types, feel free to chime in. Third also, all this is coming off the cuff so please correct anything I get wrong.

Oh, BTW, in case you hadn't noticed by now, I decided to go full-on gonzo with it.

Take your basic .50 BMG, shorten it to 3 inches, no neck, 1000gr (approx.) .70(?) FMJ pistol bullet.

Load it in a 15lb. automatic pistol... (Should be able to fit those cartridges in a troll sized pistol grip, maybe.)

(Troll Pistol)
Ares Desolation .700 Supermag (Named for the feeling you get looking down the barrel.)
Dmg: 9p
AP: 0
Mode: SA
RC: 4
Ammo: 6 ( c )
Avail: 12R
Cost: 8,000
The Ares Desolation comes with an Internal Smartlink, Extended Heavy Barrel, and Gas Vent 3. All ammo costs are quadrupled. The Desolation uses Heavy Pistol ranges, +10%. Double all uncompensated recoil modifiers as with heavy weapons. Adding a Stock and Metahuman Customization allows the Desolation to be used by non-trolls.

(Troll SMG)
Ares Desolation .700 SuperSMG
Dmg: 9p
AP: -1
Mode: SA/BF
RC: 5(6)(Folding Stock)
Ammo: 20 ( c )
Avail: 15R
Cost: 12,000

The Desolation SuperSMG comes with an Internal Smartlink, Extended Heavy Barrel, Gas Vent 3, Folding Stock, and Foregrip. All ammo costs are quadrupled. The SuperSMG uses SMG ranges +10%. Double all uncompensated recoil modifiers as with heavy weapons. Adding Metahuman Customization allows the SuperSMG to be used by non-trolls, though firing in burst fire mode causes uncompensated recoil to triple instead of double, and the non-troll must resist 1S damage each time they (inadvisedly) fire a burst.

I knew it!

I like... I want... but it might be a touch unbalanced. Assume AV rounds (which my troll uses standard), and a moderate dice pool (12). 3 hits would be... 12P -5AP, twice an IP. Compare this to an Ares Vigorous. 3 hits would be... 13P -6AP, once an IP. This is stock, mind you... we could modify the weapons accordingly afterwards. I would LOVE to have this weapon! In terms of game balance though, I might suggest 7P and SS as the baseline. Just a slight kick up from the stock Super Warhawk. Metahuman Modification required. After that, standard mods would still make it SA, 8 ( c ), etc, anyway.

I'm going to go drool now.

Blame the system, not the weapon. It is a pistol firing rifle-caliber ammo (Africa-scale ammo, mind you). I don't have a problem with it doing rifle-scale damage.

The Desolation will have to be the size of a SMG just so a troll can conveniently manipulate it (compared to the tiny little buttons & levers of a normal gun). It will have a distinct sound that will carry for blocks. And the magazines will be HUGE!

Mandatory CyberEars with Sound Damping just to avoid rolling to not go deaf. Awesome.

Not big enought, Ruger Super Warhawk allready has DV 6P and AP-2, so at minimum a troll revolver should be DV7 AP-2, (possibly even DV8 AP -3 or DV9 AP-2).

The Ares Vigorous isn't a rifle, it's an assault cannon. The weapon being proposed outperforms the Thunderstruck, Shadowrun's first man-portable gauss weapon. I don't blame the weapon, I just blame the system and the people who write the weapons despite knowing what the system is. If it's going to have that kind of damage code, then it shouldn't be compatible with the fancier ammo types.

Or... Might be a broken idea for a troll gun but its a novel idea no? Anyone seen how some of the large AMR rifles fire, when they recoil they ride on a slide with a shock absorber muck like a mobile arty piece. I think its called a long recoil system, I could be wrong. Make the weapon very large yes, but no more broken wrists and very very controllable. But this idea does have one major flaw which would balance it out, the weapon needs to wait to have the system reset which before firing again.

I also like the 7DV, one tick up from a Super Warhawk. Ammo is going to be fragging expensive, though. Is there an Artisan(Reloading) skill yet?

This is probably what is packed in Assault cannons and makes them SS weapons.

Troll sized weapons... y'all are crazy.

Besides, I always thought of shotguns as the troll "pistol" (different skill but you get the idea). Hell, with a few mods, a troll can one hand a Spas-22 and fire 2 burst with only the -1 penalty. And then there's the rule for firing heavy weapons without braces.

What I wonder is would corps actually mass produce troll specific weaponry?