bad GM?, am i doing something wrong here? Options

[Shot]

i have been a GM for shadow run 4th edition for about 1 or 2 years.Have had at least 15 different players under my will. So far i ran into a couple of recurring problems. 1. i can't seem to move away from the dungeon crawling missions. mainly this ends up happening because PCs more or less demand it. THis is i believe part my fault as i try to leave it open to players and they feel as though they have no clue what to do.
2. . my PCs always make Purely Hack&Slash and love to mass murder the poor guys. even when i try to encourage the use of social skills and prosent hacking scenarios. the common responds from my pc's is well it's just feels kinda boring, i just want to kill things..

[BlueMax]

Your subject and your post are not congruous. Let us skip judging your capability as a GM and move into discussing your items.

SR4 is not a good game for hack and slash, nor for traditional tiered badguy fighting. If thats what the players want to play, you have to either move back to SR2 which was well designed for combat, or move to another system.

I always recommend to sit down with your players and have everyone talk about what they want in a game. You may be surprised and hopefully the discussion provides guidance for everyone.

BlueMax

[CollateralDynamo]

Well, players will be players, and sometimes you need to give them what they want. That said, have you actually ever spoken with your players about what they want out of the campaign. If they want a high-tech hack and slash type of campaign, that is doable with the SR system, if somewhat scary from my point of view. However, if that isn't what you want out of the game you likely will need to come up with a happy medium.

Going through 15 players in 2 years is kind of a lot, but I guess it depends on your life situation and how you meet them. I generally only play with people I am close friends with before hand, so I tend to slowly go through players. However if you are using your local game shop, I could see the table rapidly becoming a "revolving door" cast of characters. So it may not be a reflection on you at all.

As for your two points:
1) I have seen GMs used to running the cancer causing game getting bogged down in this. Especially if their players come from the same game. They look at a facility and inevitably their thought process becomes "how do I eliminate all hostiles and loot this place of everything not bolted down". Sometimes, this is a fine thought, however it may not work depending on your setting. If you do not wish for it to work, have the PCs his an insurmountably large building. Such as a portion of the Aztech pyramid in Seattle. This way they could conceivably take out everyone in their district, but they still don't have time to go room by room and loot.

Alternately, making it a dungeon crawl likely results in extreme loss of life for the sec guards involved. If you want to discourage this behavior, start sending vendetta teams against the players. Upset family members hire runners to off the players or otherwise make their lives miserable. Might make them think before they take another shot at Johnny Law when they didn't have to.

2) Hack and slash is a difficult concept for me in SR. It is so violent and the players should be so outmatched in some cases that it just seems a bad idea. If the players are frequenting this mode, you should look at the threats you are presenting them with. Perhaps they should be up against stiffer opposition. In an all out gun battle with no real strategy or escape plan, I would say that at least one PC should bite the big one and take a dirt nap, but maybe thats just my running style.

If PCs find social interactions and hacking boring (what about magic things?) then you can still focus on the combat. Perhaps make them mercenaries in a more mil spec level campaign. This results in a lot of gunfire and a lot of opportunity to try out their "Hack and Slash" against opponents of a similar caliber.

In the end, RPGs are about players and DMs coming to a happy middle on what the game should actually be like.

[Screaming Eagle]

If your players and yourself are having a good time it is a win. That is all.

If your players are having a good time and you are not (this sounds like the case) this will require you to discuss this with the group - sometimes things are just incompatable, you want to run a spy game, they want to play a FPS with dice, this in not a bad thing but your enjoyment is at least of some importance. This is still a tentative win as you are entertaining others - how much food do they bribe you with?

If the players are not having a good time and you are having a good time you fail as a GM and need to overhaul what you are doing or change what they are expecting.

If everyone doesn't like it something needs to be overhauled, probably everything, go rent a movie or something. Take some time off and come back fresh after everyone has had a few weeks of "Ghost in the Shell" or similar to get everyone on the same page.

General advise to avoid the "dungeon crawl/ hack and slack game" - up the leathality, no one wants to be in combat or dally in hostile turf when every bullet could be a winner. Make the leg work important by inceasing the difficulty, they need the information or they will get shot/ electrified/ possesed by the angry ghost during the mission. Killing the homeless is great, until one of them is in fact a grade 7 Physad initiate defending the down trodden man from the evils of the world AKA your PC's, or runner teams get hired by the locals for help, or the cops ACTUALLY SHOW UP! my god, I know... but every PC should know better then to off a beat cop, its just not worth it.

[MikeKozar]

It's a tricky situation - they're missing out on big parts of the game, you're not happy about it, and forcing them to play out of their comfort zone is a pain for both of you. I get it.

You really shouldn't try to run a game your players don't enjoy, but you might be able to train them to embrace some of the other aspects of the game if you sell it right. Once they see that it can pay off for them, they'll fight you less.

Keeping in mind that your players are combat oriented, set up some optional puzzles/hack challenges/negotiations that give them a combat edge.

For instance, if they're in a fight against heavily armored foes (enough to be a serious threat) and you point out the wrecked vehicle in the corner has an intact Big Gun mount. If they could get it working (mechanic) or break the security (hacking) then one of the characters would get to use the Big Gun for the fight. This should be a legitimate challenge, maybe an Edge point spent, but the gun should absolutely smear the Heavies.

You could point out to the players through an NPC that the extremely well-armed guards on-base don't have vision augs. If they cut the power, or set off the fire suppression systems, the enemy won't be able to target them effectively. This has the double bonus of encouraging puzzle solving and rewarding the foresight to have bought augmented vision in the first place. Again, you have to make this really pay off by giving guards weapons that will really hurt the players - lasers are good for this (AP -half) and you can incorporate the Biometric Safety system and Safe Fire systems to keep the PCs from swiping them.

[Brazilian_Shinob...]

As I use to say you have 4 options on situations like this:

1- Find new players who share your point of view (this might be trick in some places, where RPG players are an endangered species).
2- Talk to your players that you are not having fun and try to see if they change their attitude.
3- If you've talked to your players and they didn't change or if you think it is moot, you could hipnotize or brainwash them to get the behavior you want them to have. (it will take a while to learn these kinds of abilities).
4- Develop imaginary friends, this way you will have friends the way you want, of course, sometimes your imaginary friends might begin to act in ways you did not intend them too, also, it is highly desirable that you keep this condition hidden from real friends and families or else they might put you on a psichiatrist hospital and you will lose your imaginary friends.

[Creel]

Play Rifts.

[Ol' Scratch]

Alternatively, if they're hardcore about wanting to be more hack-and-slashish and your main objection is that you just don't like the flavor of that concept in the standard Shadowrun setting, you can always try an alternative game in the same setting. You could even use those games to slowly taper them to a style you'd prefer.

A mercenary/black ops setting, for instance, would fit right up their alley. Lots of fighting to be had, and still some social interaction and puzzles to be solved on the side. You could use that to slowly get them enravelled in a bigger story and show them how much fun a story arc can be.

But if they're not into that at all, and you really dislike running those types of games, your only real alternative is to just find another game that you all can enjoy. Being a GM is supposed to be as much fun as being a player. If you're miserable, why exactly are you playing a game?

[Lok1 :)]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/devil.gif) WARNING OVERSIMPLFIED, BIASED, AND MOSTLY UNHELPFULL ADVICE INCOMEING!!!!!!!! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/devil.gif)

Just convince them to convert over to 4th D&D, thats the type of player that system was built for and get some a group of players that will play shadowrun correctly.
---------------------------------------------------------
Ok now that I got that out of my system I can give you some real advice. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smokin.gif)
I agree with alot of the people hear in that the problem is a mixture of both yours and the players fault. You've all gotten hooked into a bad style of play. I suggest either moveing on to another system/group or talking to your players and begin moveing the game gradually away from that direction. Realy though the best advice I can give you is change systems/settings for somthing more "Mor Kombat" style. If they like the futerist style perchance its time to go to battletech.

*Said advice may and most likely will be ridden with misspellings do to dyslexia.

[AKWeaponsSpecial...]

Although you could try a game where they're Urban Brawl combatants.... although that might turn into a Battle Of The Munchkins.....or just an arms race between GM and PC's, which is probably not what you want. However, if they're Urban Brawl contestants, then they have to deal with their agents, their fans, all that jazz, and you might introduce them to the wider world of SR to them through that.....

[Shot]

Thanks for all the advice. To clarify the reason why i have seen 15 different people at my table is because i have moved 3 times since i have started to play. Also almost after ever run i ask the players what they liked and what they want to see more of. i explain how things could have been different if they choose different paths and how different styles could approach the same problems. i also see what excites a player during playing and what bores them to death. I also know killing off all of my PCs doesn't make for a happy party.

The group i am currently playing with consists of 5 players with no background of pen and paper RPGs.On their fist mission I piratically killed all my PCs due to them blazing in and killing everything.( i help create all of their characters and all of them have skills that would help them through any situation with out mass murder). Afterward the whole group complain how one of them knocked themselves out(mage) and most received damage on their first run. Not to confuse this with complaining I am just trying to paint the picture here. I know this group wants to have story and wants to do more then combat(i see it in their eyes) but i cant think of anyway for them to realize that combat is really risky with out most of the team dying. And if i do that it may discourage them from ever wanting to play again.

[Jimson]

You could just try dropping them in a place where combat-only resolutions maybe possible. I had a hard time serpetating my PC's from the combat style of D&D. One run I had them escorting someone from Seattle to New York. The plan went down and had to find their way to New York. Then were out in the wilderness for sometime, then eventually found a small town...that was overrun with Ghouls and such. This allowed them to use various skills (survival and navigational skills), but also had the combat they were wanting, without having to worry about Lonestar.

Have you looked into other cities? I think Caracus is a pretty unlawful town. Maybe put them there, or in Chicago in the middle of the CZ?

[Sengir]

but i cant think of anyway for them to realize that combat is really risky with out most of the team dying. And if i do that it may discourage them from ever wanting to play again.

Make them run into some extremely tough opposition which captures them and takes their stuff, then they have to break out...yes, PC games are good inspirations when one runs out of ideas (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Cthulhudreams]

If your players are having fun, and so are you, why upset the apple cart?

If someone's not having fun, just talk about the issue upfront.

[Tachi]

Sometimes, with a group new to SR or players new to RPGs, you have to just tell them how dangerous it is to go in 'guns blazing'. Then, when they don't listen, TPK 'em. But try to do it nicely ( (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotfl.gif) ), then when they're " (IMG:style_emoticons/default/eek.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/dead.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/eek.gif) OMGWTF he totally PWNed us", tell them again that combat in Shadowrun is exceptionally lethal. Try not to piss them off, it's easy to do with this scenario, because if you do, some may not want to play again. But they have to learn, this IS NOT D&D or a video game. Others here will tell you that I'm an asshole for even suggesting this, but, it's worked for me several times with people who became some of my best players.

THIS IS SHADOWRUN!!!!
*Kicks some random dude into the 'Pit of Death' just to amuse himself.*

Or, conversely, you can just adjust all their opposition so it dies messily and let them keep doing it.

Yet another option, have them read some SR fiction, some of it ends very badly for the main characters.

[Saint Sithney]

The game comes equipped with many different paths to GM fiat. Here's some in use.

1) The Lying Johnson: If your players are going to act like chumps, have them treated like chumps. They can be the local mongo crew that gets hired to draw the High Threat Response teams away from more important sites while better runners get away with the real score. So, the runners get hired to break in and steal something that isn't there, then, after 20 minutes of looting and bumbling about, the place is surrounded and they've got to fight their way past massive aerial, ground and magic defenses. They then proceed to Hulk out on the heavies while someone else claims the real objective. Before long, the runners get a rep as a ham-fisted wrecking crew prime for the setup.
2) The Setup: Anyone like the guys you describe is going to get a nasty rep. The kind of rep that says "these guys are poison for the whole scene." That's where Laes comes in. They can wake up in flight with a fresh cranial bomb and you don't have to explain a thing. Their memories of the past few hours have been completely irrevocably erased. All they know now is that they have work to do, and they're dead if they don't do it.
3) Africa: There is a place in the 6th World for bloodthirsty killers, and that is the Dark Continent. Ship your hostaged team over there and let them loose. Let them know that, if they try to return home, their heads will explode. They can go to work sterilizing villages infected by HMHVV or Insect Spirits. They can head into Lagos for the tech-gone-wrong set and up to Morocco to get on the smuggling tip. Eventually, they can get the bombs removed, but they shouldn't really even want to leave by then. Africa is where all the nastiest stuff goes down, from experimental gene tech, to massive unidentified critter hunting. It is the Realm which has been Forgotten, and as such, should allow for the sort of behaviors your hack'n'slash players adore.

[BlueMax]

The game comes equipped with many different paths to GM fiat. Here's some in use.

1) The Lying Johnson: If your players are going to act like chumps, have them treated like chumps. They can be the local mongo crew that gets hired to draw the High Threat Response teams away from more important sites while better runners get away with the real score. So, the runners get hired to break in and steal something that isn't there, then, after 20 minutes of looting and bumbling about, the place is surrounded and they've got to fight their way past massive aerial, ground and magic defenses. They then proceed to Hulk out on the heavies while someone else claims the real objective. Before long, the runners get a rep as a ham-fisted wrecking crew prime for the setup.
2) The Setup: Anyone like the guys you describe is going to get a nasty rep. The kind of rep that says "these guys are poison for the whole scene." That's where Laes comes in. They can wake up in flight with a fresh cranial bomb and you don't have to explain a thing. Their memories of the past few hours have been completely irrevocably erased. All they know now is that they have work to do, and they're dead if they don't do it.
3) Africa: There is a place in the 6th World for bloodthirsty killers, and that is the Dark Continent. Ship your hostaged team over there and let them loose. Let them know that, if they try to return home, their heads will explode. They can go to work sterilizing villages infected by HMHVV or Insect Spirits. They can head into Lagos for the tech-gone-wrong set and up to Morocco to get on the smuggling tip. Eventually, they can get the bombs removed, but they shouldn't really even want to leave by then. Africa is where all the nastiest stuff goes down, from experimental gene tech, to massive unidentified critter hunting. It is the Realm which has been Forgotten, and as such, should allow for the sort of behaviors your hack'n'slash players adore.

The problem is the system doesn't handle hack 'n' slash. Send the group to Africa and either they kill everything or the die fast. SR4(A) is a game of Glass Cannons and as such, it doesn't fit certain playstyles.

BlueMax

[Cthulhudreams]

What is the obsession GMs have with being passive aggressive jerks?

If someone working for you is doing something you don't like, and you wait until their end of year performance review to tell them they are doing it wrong, you're a cock. You tell them when they do it. Then if they don't fix it, you give them a shit review.

If you don't like what your players are doing, have a talk to them. If they actively enjoy whatever they are doing, why piss in their beer?

2) The Setup: Anyone like the guys you describe is going to get a nasty rep. The kind of rep that says "these guys are poison for the whole scene." That's where Laes comes in. They can wake up in flight with a fresh cranial bomb and you don't have to explain a thing. Their memories of the past few hours have been completely irrevocably erased. All they know now is that they have work to do, and they're dead if they don't do it.

Is the absolute worst kind of GM railroading in the universe.

[Jericho Alar]

Personally, if after fragging a run really badly the next session started like that, I'd find it awesome as a player.

then again part of why I play and GM shadowrun is because it's one of the few settings that actively encourages the viewpoint that sometimes things happen to the players that are out of their control and what's interesting isn't how much the change the setting, but how much the setting changes them..

[Cthulhudreams]

If the players all screwed up and got captured after a run and then that happened, I still don't like it, but it seems reasonable. The actual SUGGESTION though is 'just rail the players with cranial bombs. Don't roll any dice'

[Jericho Alar]

If the players all screwed up and got captured after a run and then that happened, I still don't like it, but it seems reasonable. The actual SUGGESTION though is 'just rail the players with cranial bombs. Don't roll any dice'

I guess I kind of assumed it would follow a couple big-explosion-action-movie-all-over-the-trid botched runs as described in 1) of the "3 steps to making your runners love Africa" plan but I see now that it may not have been meant as one cohesive plan.

[Ayeohx]

i have been a GM for shadow run 4th edition for about 1 or 2 years.Have had at least 15 different players under my will. So far i ran into a couple of recurring problems. 1. i can't seem to move away from the dungeon crawling missions. mainly this ends up happening because PCs more or less demand it. THis is i believe part my fault as i try to leave it open to players and they feel as though they have no clue what to do.
2. . my PCs always make Purely Hack&Slash and love to mass murder the poor guys. even when i try to encourage the use of social skills and prosent hacking scenarios. the common responds from my pc's is well it's just feels kinda boring, i just want to kill things..

Hard to say but you don't sound like a bad GM, just inexperienced.

Here's a question for you: Is your game world not interesting enough for your players to get properly involved? It's a common problem so don't feel too defensive. Here's a few ideas.

1. Flesh out your NPCs.
   All of your PCs should have contacts. If shadowrunners don't have contacts then they are not shadowrunners. Gear, information, fake IDs, almost everything comes from contacts. You need to make these contacts unique individuals. These are YOUR characters. If you expect your players to flesh out their PCs then you must flesh out your NPCs. Why do they do what they do, where are they from, etc. Stat them up if your bored. I'll even base them off some obscure TV or movie personality sometimes. But you have to do this. It's a solid step in getting your players to care about the world around them.
2. Always remember to describe the 5 senses.
   If they are in an alleyway try to work in at least 2 senses into your description, usually sight and sounds. I like adding scents whenever possible.
3. Always remember the 3 planes of existence: Physical, Astral and Matrix.
   You can also say "Mundane, magical and technological" also, whichever works best. Besides a bunch of cybered meatbags remember there are drones everywhere and spirits zipping through the astral doing their masters' biddings. It's easy to forget the future tech and magic portion or SR. Make sure that you include all three planes into each of your games. It'll up paranoia which, hopefully, will make them think more and be more careful.
4. Reflect consequences realistically.
   If a player insist on wearing the same set of armor (my lucky lined coat!) every game, doesn't cover his face during runs and is a general sloppy runner it may be time to bring this individual some pain. I'm not saying "Go out of your way to be a prick" but you need to reflect the consequences properly. Otherwise you'll have players take advantage of your unwillingness to run your game realistically. This will up their paranoia and make them think things out more. This is a hard one, even for me; I'm a bit of a carebear GM. But it has to be done.

Anyhow, this should help a bit. If not, and you're still not getting the results that you want, maybe it's time to consider dropping everything and playing a game that fosters hack n' slash.

[Brazilian_Shinob...]

• Reflect consequences realistically.
  If a player insist on wearing the same set of armor (my lucky lined coat!) every game, doesn't cover his face during runs and is a general sloppy runner it may be time to bring this individual some pain. I'm not saying "Go out of your way to be a prick" but you need to reflect the consequences properly. Otherwise you'll have players take advantage of your unwillingness to run your game realistically. This will up their paranoia and make them think things out more. This is a hard one, even for me; I'm a bit of a carebear GM. But it has to be done.

Because as Garou likes to say, paranoia is only a condition when no one is after you. When someone is after you, it becomes a life style (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif)

[BlueMax]

Hard to say but you don't sound like a bad GM, just inexperienced.

Here's a question for you: Is your game world not interesting enough for your players to get properly involved? It's a common problem so don't feel too defensive. Here's a few ideas.

1. Flesh out your NPCs.
   All of your PCs should have contacts. If shadowrunners don't have contacts then they are not shadowrunners. Gear, information, fake IDs, almost everything comes from contacts. You need to make these contacts unique individuals. These are YOUR characters. If you expect your players to flesh out their PCs then you must flesh out your NPCs. Why do they do what they do, where are they from, etc. Stat them up if your bored. I'll even base them off some obscure TV or movie personality sometimes. But you have to do this. It's a solid step in getting your players to care about the world around them.
2. Always remember to describe the 5 senses.
   If they are in an alleyway try to work in at least 2 senses into your description, usually sight and sounds. I like adding scents whenever possible.
3. Always remember the 3 planes of existence: Physical, Astral and Matrix.
   You can also say "Mundane, magical and technological" also, whichever works best. Besides a bunch of cybered meatbags remember there are drones everywhere and spirits zipping through the astral doing their masters' biddings. It's easy to forget the future tech and magic portion or SR. Make sure that you include all three planes into each of your games. It'll up paranoia which, hopefully, will make them think more and be more careful.
4. Reflect consequences realistically.
   If a player insist on wearing the same set of armor (my lucky lined coat!) every game, doesn't cover his face during runs and is a general sloppy runner it may be time to bring this individual some pain. I'm not saying "Go out of your way to be a prick" but you need to reflect the consequences properly. Otherwise you'll have players take advantage of your unwillingness to run your game realistically. This will up their paranoia and make them think things out more. This is a hard one, even for me; I'm a bit of a carebear GM. But it has to be done.

Anyhow, this should help a bit. If not, and you're still not getting the results that you want, maybe it's time to consider dropping everything and playing a game that fosters hack n' slash.

I was right with you until the "Kill the game with Minutia" Clause. What a buzzkill. This reminds me of reading A Fistful of Data last week. In one of the early chapters the author spent pages talking about cameras, face surgery blah blah blah but after establishing all that background bulldrek for someone who may not read anything Shadowrun or cyberpunk, the author did not touch the subject again. If they had, what a fragging bore the novel would have been.

I keep the tasklist, checklist, chores paranoia to a limited number of direct actions. When we want more color, we do a 1D6 traction ( From Top Secret, we all remember Top Secret... right?) roll. On a one, someone forgot something or something simple went wrong.

For tasklist, checklist, chores minutia, I stick to my real life OCD. We gave up wasting 20 minutes with the thief on door SOP back in 1987 and I doubt we will ever go back.
/me wears an onion on his belt proudly.

Paranoia should come from plot elements and play path choices, and should not always been about following a programmed set of actions. How corp.


BlueMax
/yes, that may have a been a bit too much "Get off my lawn"
//sorry

[Cthulhudreams]

I guess I kind of assumed it would follow a couple big-explosion-action-movie-all-over-the-trid botched runs as described in 1) of the "3 steps to making your runners love Africa" plan but I see now that it may not have been meant as one cohesive plan.

Hey that would actually be cool, but if the objective is making the players stop running in chainguns blazing, an entire plot arch on te premise that they will keep doing that isn't probably what is being suggested.

Though that said, would be fun.