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Shot
i have been a GM for shadow run 4th edition for about 1 or 2 years.Have had at least 15 different players under my will. So far i ran into a couple of recurring problems. 1. i can't seem to move away from the dungeon crawling missions. mainly this ends up happening because PCs more or less demand it. THis is i believe part my fault as i try to leave it open to players and they feel as though they have no clue what to do.
2. . my PCs always make Purely Hack&Slash and love to mass murder the poor guys. even when i try to encourage the use of social skills and prosent hacking scenarios. the common responds from my pc's is well it's just feels kinda boring, i just want to kill things..
BlueMax
Your subject and your post are not congruous. Let us skip judging your capability as a GM and move into discussing your items.

SR4 is not a good game for hack and slash, nor for traditional tiered badguy fighting. If thats what the players want to play, you have to either move back to SR2 which was well designed for combat, or move to another system.

I always recommend to sit down with your players and have everyone talk about what they want in a game. You may be surprised and hopefully the discussion provides guidance for everyone.

BlueMax



CollateralDynamo
Well, players will be players, and sometimes you need to give them what they want. That said, have you actually ever spoken with your players about what they want out of the campaign. If they want a high-tech hack and slash type of campaign, that is doable with the SR system, if somewhat scary from my point of view. However, if that isn't what you want out of the game you likely will need to come up with a happy medium.

Going through 15 players in 2 years is kind of a lot, but I guess it depends on your life situation and how you meet them. I generally only play with people I am close friends with before hand, so I tend to slowly go through players. However if you are using your local game shop, I could see the table rapidly becoming a "revolving door" cast of characters. So it may not be a reflection on you at all.

As for your two points:
1) I have seen GMs used to running the cancer causing game getting bogged down in this. Especially if their players come from the same game. They look at a facility and inevitably their thought process becomes "how do I eliminate all hostiles and loot this place of everything not bolted down". Sometimes, this is a fine thought, however it may not work depending on your setting. If you do not wish for it to work, have the PCs his an insurmountably large building. Such as a portion of the Aztech pyramid in Seattle. This way they could conceivably take out everyone in their district, but they still don't have time to go room by room and loot.

Alternately, making it a dungeon crawl likely results in extreme loss of life for the sec guards involved. If you want to discourage this behavior, start sending vendetta teams against the players. Upset family members hire runners to off the players or otherwise make their lives miserable. Might make them think before they take another shot at Johnny Law when they didn't have to.

2) Hack and slash is a difficult concept for me in SR. It is so violent and the players should be so outmatched in some cases that it just seems a bad idea. If the players are frequenting this mode, you should look at the threats you are presenting them with. Perhaps they should be up against stiffer opposition. In an all out gun battle with no real strategy or escape plan, I would say that at least one PC should bite the big one and take a dirt nap, but maybe thats just my running style.

If PCs find social interactions and hacking boring (what about magic things?) then you can still focus on the combat. Perhaps make them mercenaries in a more mil spec level campaign. This results in a lot of gunfire and a lot of opportunity to try out their "Hack and Slash" against opponents of a similar caliber.

In the end, RPGs are about players and DMs coming to a happy middle on what the game should actually be like.
Screaming Eagle
If your players and yourself are having a good time it is a win. That is all.

If your players are having a good time and you are not (this sounds like the case) this will require you to discuss this with the group - sometimes things are just incompatable, you want to run a spy game, they want to play a FPS with dice, this in not a bad thing but your enjoyment is at least of some importance. This is still a tentative win as you are entertaining others - how much food do they bribe you with?

If the players are not having a good time and you are having a good time you fail as a GM and need to overhaul what you are doing or change what they are expecting.

If everyone doesn't like it something needs to be overhauled, probably everything, go rent a movie or something. Take some time off and come back fresh after everyone has had a few weeks of "Ghost in the Shell" or similar to get everyone on the same page.

General advise to avoid the "dungeon crawl/ hack and slack game" - up the leathality, no one wants to be in combat or dally in hostile turf when every bullet could be a winner. Make the leg work important by inceasing the difficulty, they need the information or they will get shot/ electrified/ possesed by the angry ghost during the mission. Killing the homeless is great, until one of them is in fact a grade 7 Physad initiate defending the down trodden man from the evils of the world AKA your PC's, or runner teams get hired by the locals for help, or the cops ACTUALLY SHOW UP! my god, I know... but every PC should know better then to off a beat cop, its just not worth it.
MikeKozar
It's a tricky situation - they're missing out on big parts of the game, you're not happy about it, and forcing them to play out of their comfort zone is a pain for both of you. I get it.

You really shouldn't try to run a game your players don't enjoy, but you might be able to train them to embrace some of the other aspects of the game if you sell it right. Once they see that it can pay off for them, they'll fight you less.

Keeping in mind that your players are combat oriented, set up some optional puzzles/hack challenges/negotiations that give them a combat edge.

For instance, if they're in a fight against heavily armored foes (enough to be a serious threat) and you point out the wrecked vehicle in the corner has an intact Big Gun mount. If they could get it working (mechanic) or break the security (hacking) then one of the characters would get to use the Big Gun for the fight. This should be a legitimate challenge, maybe an Edge point spent, but the gun should absolutely smear the Heavies.

You could point out to the players through an NPC that the extremely well-armed guards on-base don't have vision augs. If they cut the power, or set off the fire suppression systems, the enemy won't be able to target them effectively. This has the double bonus of encouraging puzzle solving and rewarding the foresight to have bought augmented vision in the first place. Again, you have to make this really pay off by giving guards weapons that will really hurt the players - lasers are good for this (AP -half) and you can incorporate the Biometric Safety system and Safe Fire systems to keep the PCs from swiping them.

Brazilian_Shinobi
As I use to say you have 4 options on situations like this:

1- Find new players who share your point of view (this might be trick in some places, where RPG players are an endangered species).
2- Talk to your players that you are not having fun and try to see if they change their attitude.
3- If you've talked to your players and they didn't change or if you think it is moot, you could hipnotize or brainwash them to get the behavior you want them to have. (it will take a while to learn these kinds of abilities).
4- Develop imaginary friends, this way you will have friends the way you want, of course, sometimes your imaginary friends might begin to act in ways you did not intend them too, also, it is highly desirable that you keep this condition hidden from real friends and families or else they might put you on a psichiatrist hospital and you will lose your imaginary friends.
Creel
Play Rifts.
Ol' Scratch
Alternatively, if they're hardcore about wanting to be more hack-and-slashish and your main objection is that you just don't like the flavor of that concept in the standard Shadowrun setting, you can always try an alternative game in the same setting. You could even use those games to slowly taper them to a style you'd prefer.

A mercenary/black ops setting, for instance, would fit right up their alley. Lots of fighting to be had, and still some social interaction and puzzles to be solved on the side. You could use that to slowly get them enravelled in a bigger story and show them how much fun a story arc can be.

But if they're not into that at all, and you really dislike running those types of games, your only real alternative is to just find another game that you all can enjoy. Being a GM is supposed to be as much fun as being a player. If you're miserable, why exactly are you playing a game?
Lok1 :)
devil.gif WARNING OVERSIMPLFIED, BIASED, AND MOSTLY UNHELPFULL ADVICE INCOMEING!!!!!!!! devil.gif

Just convince them to convert over to 4th D&D, thats the type of player that system was built for and get some a group of players that will play shadowrun correctly.
---------------------------------------------------------
Ok now that I got that out of my system I can give you some real advice. smokin.gif
I agree with alot of the people hear in that the problem is a mixture of both yours and the players fault. You've all gotten hooked into a bad style of play. I suggest either moveing on to another system/group or talking to your players and begin moveing the game gradually away from that direction. Realy though the best advice I can give you is change systems/settings for somthing more "Mor Kombat" style. If they like the futerist style perchance its time to go to battletech.

*Said advice may and most likely will be ridden with misspellings do to dyslexia.
AKWeaponsSpecialist
Although you could try a game where they're Urban Brawl combatants.... although that might turn into a Battle Of The Munchkins.....or just an arms race between GM and PC's, which is probably not what you want. However, if they're Urban Brawl contestants, then they have to deal with their agents, their fans, all that jazz, and you might introduce them to the wider world of SR to them through that.....
Shot
Thanks for all the advice. To clarify the reason why i have seen 15 different people at my table is because i have moved 3 times since i have started to play. Also almost after ever run i ask the players what they liked and what they want to see more of. i explain how things could have been different if they choose different paths and how different styles could approach the same problems. i also see what excites a player during playing and what bores them to death. I also know killing off all of my PCs doesn't make for a happy party.

The group i am currently playing with consists of 5 players with no background of pen and paper RPGs.On their fist mission I piratically killed all my PCs due to them blazing in and killing everything.( i help create all of their characters and all of them have skills that would help them through any situation with out mass murder). Afterward the whole group complain how one of them knocked themselves out(mage) and most received damage on their first run. Not to confuse this with complaining I am just trying to paint the picture here. I know this group wants to have story and wants to do more then combat(i see it in their eyes) but i cant think of anyway for them to realize that combat is really risky with out most of the team dying. And if i do that it may discourage them from ever wanting to play again.
Jimson
You could just try dropping them in a place where combat-only resolutions maybe possible. I had a hard time serpetating my PC's from the combat style of D&D. One run I had them escorting someone from Seattle to New York. The plan went down and had to find their way to New York. Then were out in the wilderness for sometime, then eventually found a small town...that was overrun with Ghouls and such. This allowed them to use various skills (survival and navigational skills), but also had the combat they were wanting, without having to worry about Lonestar.

Have you looked into other cities? I think Caracus is a pretty unlawful town. Maybe put them there, or in Chicago in the middle of the CZ?
Sengir
QUOTE (Shot @ Nov 10 2009, 12:12 AM) *
but i cant think of anyway for them to realize that combat is really risky with out most of the team dying. And if i do that it may discourage them from ever wanting to play again.

Make them run into some extremely tough opposition which captures them and takes their stuff, then they have to break out...yes, PC games are good inspirations when one runs out of ideas wink.gif
Cthulhudreams
If your players are having fun, and so are you, why upset the apple cart?

If someone's not having fun, just talk about the issue upfront.
Tachi
Sometimes, with a group new to SR or players new to RPGs, you have to just tell them how dangerous it is to go in 'guns blazing'. Then, when they don't listen, TPK 'em. But try to do it nicely ( rotfl.gif ), then when they're " eek.gif dead.gif eek.gif OMGWTF he totally PWNed us", tell them again that combat in Shadowrun is exceptionally lethal. Try not to piss them off, it's easy to do with this scenario, because if you do, some may not want to play again. But they have to learn, this IS NOT D&D or a video game. Others here will tell you that I'm an asshole for even suggesting this, but, it's worked for me several times with people who became some of my best players.

THIS IS SHADOWRUN!!!!
*Kicks some random dude into the 'Pit of Death' just to amuse himself.*

Or, conversely, you can just adjust all their opposition so it dies messily and let them keep doing it.

Yet another option, have them read some SR fiction, some of it ends very badly for the main characters.
Saint Sithney
The game comes equipped with many different paths to GM fiat. Here's some in use.

1) The Lying Johnson: If your players are going to act like chumps, have them treated like chumps. They can be the local mongo crew that gets hired to draw the High Threat Response teams away from more important sites while better runners get away with the real score. So, the runners get hired to break in and steal something that isn't there, then, after 20 minutes of looting and bumbling about, the place is surrounded and they've got to fight their way past massive aerial, ground and magic defenses. They then proceed to Hulk out on the heavies while someone else claims the real objective. Before long, the runners get a rep as a ham-fisted wrecking crew prime for the setup.
2) The Setup: Anyone like the guys you describe is going to get a nasty rep. The kind of rep that says "these guys are poison for the whole scene." That's where Laes comes in. They can wake up in flight with a fresh cranial bomb and you don't have to explain a thing. Their memories of the past few hours have been completely irrevocably erased. All they know now is that they have work to do, and they're dead if they don't do it.
3) Africa: There is a place in the 6th World for bloodthirsty killers, and that is the Dark Continent. Ship your hostaged team over there and let them loose. Let them know that, if they try to return home, their heads will explode. They can go to work sterilizing villages infected by HMHVV or Insect Spirits. They can head into Lagos for the tech-gone-wrong set and up to Morocco to get on the smuggling tip. Eventually, they can get the bombs removed, but they shouldn't really even want to leave by then. Africa is where all the nastiest stuff goes down, from experimental gene tech, to massive unidentified critter hunting. It is the Realm which has been Forgotten, and as such, should allow for the sort of behaviors your hack'n'slash players adore.
BlueMax
QUOTE (Saint Sithney @ Nov 9 2009, 04:05 PM) *
The game comes equipped with many different paths to GM fiat. Here's some in use.

1) The Lying Johnson: If your players are going to act like chumps, have them treated like chumps. They can be the local mongo crew that gets hired to draw the High Threat Response teams away from more important sites while better runners get away with the real score. So, the runners get hired to break in and steal something that isn't there, then, after 20 minutes of looting and bumbling about, the place is surrounded and they've got to fight their way past massive aerial, ground and magic defenses. They then proceed to Hulk out on the heavies while someone else claims the real objective. Before long, the runners get a rep as a ham-fisted wrecking crew prime for the setup.
2) The Setup: Anyone like the guys you describe is going to get a nasty rep. The kind of rep that says "these guys are poison for the whole scene." That's where Laes comes in. They can wake up in flight with a fresh cranial bomb and you don't have to explain a thing. Their memories of the past few hours have been completely irrevocably erased. All they know now is that they have work to do, and they're dead if they don't do it.
3) Africa: There is a place in the 6th World for bloodthirsty killers, and that is the Dark Continent. Ship your hostaged team over there and let them loose. Let them know that, if they try to return home, their heads will explode. They can go to work sterilizing villages infected by HMHVV or Insect Spirits. They can head into Lagos for the tech-gone-wrong set and up to Morocco to get on the smuggling tip. Eventually, they can get the bombs removed, but they shouldn't really even want to leave by then. Africa is where all the nastiest stuff goes down, from experimental gene tech, to massive unidentified critter hunting. It is the Realm which has been Forgotten, and as such, should allow for the sort of behaviors your hack'n'slash players adore.


The problem is the system doesn't handle hack 'n' slash. Send the group to Africa and either they kill everything or the die fast. SR4(A) is a game of Glass Cannons and as such, it doesn't fit certain playstyles.

BlueMax
Cthulhudreams
What is the obsession GMs have with being passive aggressive jerks?

If someone working for you is doing something you don't like, and you wait until their end of year performance review to tell them they are doing it wrong, you're a cock. You tell them when they do it. Then if they don't fix it, you give them a shit review.

If you don't like what your players are doing, have a talk to them. If they actively enjoy whatever they are doing, why piss in their beer?

QUOTE
2) The Setup: Anyone like the guys you describe is going to get a nasty rep. The kind of rep that says "these guys are poison for the whole scene." That's where Laes comes in. They can wake up in flight with a fresh cranial bomb and you don't have to explain a thing. Their memories of the past few hours have been completely irrevocably erased. All they know now is that they have work to do, and they're dead if they don't do it.


Is the absolute worst kind of GM railroading in the universe.
Jericho Alar
Personally, if after fragging a run really badly the next session started like that, I'd find it awesome as a player.

then again part of why I play and GM shadowrun is because it's one of the few settings that actively encourages the viewpoint that sometimes things happen to the players that are out of their control and what's interesting isn't how much the change the setting, but how much the setting changes them..
Cthulhudreams
If the players all screwed up and got captured after a run and then that happened, I still don't like it, but it seems reasonable. The actual SUGGESTION though is 'just rail the players with cranial bombs. Don't roll any dice'
Jericho Alar
QUOTE (Cthulhudreams @ Nov 9 2009, 07:49 PM) *
If the players all screwed up and got captured after a run and then that happened, I still don't like it, but it seems reasonable. The actual SUGGESTION though is 'just rail the players with cranial bombs. Don't roll any dice'


I guess I kind of assumed it would follow a couple big-explosion-action-movie-all-over-the-trid botched runs as described in 1) of the "3 steps to making your runners love Africa" plan but I see now that it may not have been meant as one cohesive plan.
Ayeohx
QUOTE (Shot @ Nov 9 2009, 12:27 PM) *
i have been a GM for shadow run 4th edition for about 1 or 2 years.Have had at least 15 different players under my will. So far i ran into a couple of recurring problems. 1. i can't seem to move away from the dungeon crawling missions. mainly this ends up happening because PCs more or less demand it. THis is i believe part my fault as i try to leave it open to players and they feel as though they have no clue what to do.
2. . my PCs always make Purely Hack&Slash and love to mass murder the poor guys. even when i try to encourage the use of social skills and prosent hacking scenarios. the common responds from my pc's is well it's just feels kinda boring, i just want to kill things..


Hard to say but you don't sound like a bad GM, just inexperienced.

Here's a question for you: Is your game world not interesting enough for your players to get properly involved? It's a common problem so don't feel too defensive. Here's a few ideas.

  1. Flesh out your NPCs.
    All of your PCs should have contacts. If shadowrunners don't have contacts then they are not shadowrunners. Gear, information, fake IDs, almost everything comes from contacts. You need to make these contacts unique individuals. These are YOUR characters. If you expect your players to flesh out their PCs then you must flesh out your NPCs. Why do they do what they do, where are they from, etc. Stat them up if your bored. I'll even base them off some obscure TV or movie personality sometimes. But you have to do this. It's a solid step in getting your players to care about the world around them.
  2. Always remember to describe the 5 senses.
    If they are in an alleyway try to work in at least 2 senses into your description, usually sight and sounds. I like adding scents whenever possible.
  3. Always remember the 3 planes of existence: Physical, Astral and Matrix.
    You can also say "Mundane, magical and technological" also, whichever works best. Besides a bunch of cybered meatbags remember there are drones everywhere and spirits zipping through the astral doing their masters' biddings. It's easy to forget the future tech and magic portion or SR. Make sure that you include all three planes into each of your games. It'll up paranoia which, hopefully, will make them think more and be more careful.
  4. Reflect consequences realistically.
    If a player insist on wearing the same set of armor (my lucky lined coat!) every game, doesn't cover his face during runs and is a general sloppy runner it may be time to bring this individual some pain. I'm not saying "Go out of your way to be a prick" but you need to reflect the consequences properly. Otherwise you'll have players take advantage of your unwillingness to run your game realistically. This will up their paranoia and make them think things out more. This is a hard one, even for me; I'm a bit of a carebear GM. But it has to be done.


Anyhow, this should help a bit. If not, and you're still not getting the results that you want, maybe it's time to consider dropping everything and playing a game that fosters hack n' slash.
Brazilian_Shinobi
QUOTE (Ayeohx @ Nov 9 2009, 10:55 PM) *
  • Reflect consequences realistically.
    If a player insist on wearing the same set of armor (my lucky lined coat!) every game, doesn't cover his face during runs and is a general sloppy runner it may be time to bring this individual some pain. I'm not saying "Go out of your way to be a prick" but you need to reflect the consequences properly. Otherwise you'll have players take advantage of your unwillingness to run your game realistically. This will up their paranoia and make them think things out more. This is a hard one, even for me; I'm a bit of a carebear GM. But it has to be done.


Because as Garou likes to say, paranoia is only a condition when no one is after you. When someone is after you, it becomes a life style cyber.gif
BlueMax
QUOTE (Ayeohx @ Nov 9 2009, 05:55 PM) *
Hard to say but you don't sound like a bad GM, just inexperienced.

Here's a question for you: Is your game world not interesting enough for your players to get properly involved? It's a common problem so don't feel too defensive. Here's a few ideas.

  1. Flesh out your NPCs.
    All of your PCs should have contacts. If shadowrunners don't have contacts then they are not shadowrunners. Gear, information, fake IDs, almost everything comes from contacts. You need to make these contacts unique individuals. These are YOUR characters. If you expect your players to flesh out their PCs then you must flesh out your NPCs. Why do they do what they do, where are they from, etc. Stat them up if your bored. I'll even base them off some obscure TV or movie personality sometimes. But you have to do this. It's a solid step in getting your players to care about the world around them.
  2. Always remember to describe the 5 senses.
    If they are in an alleyway try to work in at least 2 senses into your description, usually sight and sounds. I like adding scents whenever possible.
  3. Always remember the 3 planes of existence: Physical, Astral and Matrix.
    You can also say "Mundane, magical and technological" also, whichever works best. Besides a bunch of cybered meatbags remember there are drones everywhere and spirits zipping through the astral doing their masters' biddings. It's easy to forget the future tech and magic portion or SR. Make sure that you include all three planes into each of your games. It'll up paranoia which, hopefully, will make them think more and be more careful.
  4. Reflect consequences realistically.
    If a player insist on wearing the same set of armor (my lucky lined coat!) every game, doesn't cover his face during runs and is a general sloppy runner it may be time to bring this individual some pain. I'm not saying "Go out of your way to be a prick" but you need to reflect the consequences properly. Otherwise you'll have players take advantage of your unwillingness to run your game realistically. This will up their paranoia and make them think things out more. This is a hard one, even for me; I'm a bit of a carebear GM. But it has to be done.


Anyhow, this should help a bit. If not, and you're still not getting the results that you want, maybe it's time to consider dropping everything and playing a game that fosters hack n' slash.


I was right with you until the "Kill the game with Minutia" Clause. What a buzzkill. This reminds me of reading A Fistful of Data last week. In one of the early chapters the author spent pages talking about cameras, face surgery blah blah blah but after establishing all that background bulldrek for someone who may not read anything Shadowrun or cyberpunk, the author did not touch the subject again. If they had, what a fragging bore the novel would have been.

I keep the tasklist, checklist, chores paranoia to a limited number of direct actions. When we want more color, we do a 1D6 traction ( From Top Secret, we all remember Top Secret... right?) roll. On a one, someone forgot something or something simple went wrong.

For tasklist, checklist, chores minutia, I stick to my real life OCD. We gave up wasting 20 minutes with the thief on door SOP back in 1987 and I doubt we will ever go back.
/me wears an onion on his belt proudly.

Paranoia should come from plot elements and play path choices, and should not always been about following a programmed set of actions. How corp.


BlueMax
/yes, that may have a been a bit too much "Get off my lawn"
//sorry
Cthulhudreams
QUOTE (Jericho Alar @ Nov 10 2009, 11:59 AM) *
I guess I kind of assumed it would follow a couple big-explosion-action-movie-all-over-the-trid botched runs as described in 1) of the "3 steps to making your runners love Africa" plan but I see now that it may not have been meant as one cohesive plan.



Hey that would actually be cool, but if the objective is making the players stop running in chainguns blazing, an entire plot arch on te premise that they will keep doing that isn't probably what is being suggested.

Though that said, would be fun.
Warlordtheft
QUOTE (Shot @ Nov 9 2009, 06:12 PM) *
I also know killing off all of my PCs doesn't make for a happy party.

The group i am currently playing with consists of 5 players with no background of pen and paper RPGs.On their fist mission I piratically killed all my PCs due to them blazing in and killing everything.( i help create all of their characters and all of them have skills that would help them through any situation with out mass murder). Afterward the whole group complain how one of them knocked themselves out(mage) and most received damage on their first run. Not to confuse this with complaining I am just trying to paint the picture here. I know this group wants to have story and wants to do more then combat(i see it in their eyes) but i cant think of anyway for them to realize that combat is really risky with out most of the team dying. And if i do that it may discourage them from ever wanting to play again.



Keep the kid gloves on for the first couple of runs (killing PCs is not something you should do on a regular basis).

One of my favorite first runs is bodyguard duty in the barrens (I've run it more then a few times) for a Johnson to Johnson meet. Have the NPCs argue and act like they are about to fight. Make them realize that the other johnson has a security detail as well. (Through perception checks, astral scouting and so forth). Keep it tense and constantly do things to accentuate it. Like while arguing, the other johnson quickly reaches into his jacket for a flask of brandy.

Note in this scenario I usually let each Johnson allow one body guard. This means the rest of the party should be descreet as possible. Though if the two security details inform their perspective Johnson of the security detail, the Johsons will joke about it.

The point being, if a firefight does breakout, not only is the Johnson hosed (so much for the pay and rep) so is the one PC (the street sam trool is a good choice for this).
Garou
QUOTE (Brazilian_Shinobi @ Nov 10 2009, 02:35 AM) *
Because as Garou likes to say, paranoia is only a condition when no one is after you. When someone is after you, it becomes a life style cyber.gif


And you say this because i spoke something about Augmentations new Shiawase Biodrone, isn't it? smile.gif
Jericho Alar
Although it *would* be a viable way to inject a little more shadowrun into a very hack and slash game; and especially if you emphasize the differences in Africa (i.e. how terribly hard it is to get even basic 'necessities' - how amazingly high-tech the corp compounds in the bush are compared to the runners, how hard it is to find a good cyberdoc, let alone a clinic; how *Absolutely* dependent they are on making contacts for even basic necessities like clean water etc.) it may serve as incentives to try a more "civilized" set of runners the next time around in addition to providing an entire continent on which to enjoy hack and slash fun.

personally I think Amazonia/Aztlan is equally fun, although the bent here tends to be a bit more magical/blood magic, both settings would let you show off some of the *cool* in the SR setting without having to punish players for wanting to bring out their biggest toys for every fight.
Kumo
QUOTE (Shot @ Nov 10 2009, 01:12 AM) *
The group i am currently playing with consists of 5 players with no background of pen and paper RPGs.On their fist mission I piratically killed all my PCs due to them blazing in and killing everything.( i help create all of their characters and all of them have skills that would help them through any situation with out mass murder). Afterward the whole group complain how one of them knocked themselves out(mage) and most received damage on their first run. Not to confuse this with complaining I am just trying to paint the picture here. I know this group wants to have story and wants to do more then combat(i see it in their eyes) but i cant think of anyway for them to realize that combat is really risky with out most of the team dying. And if i do that it may discourage them from ever wanting to play again.

(emphasis mine)

1. Help them to understand SR world. If they know only cRPGs, it's not easy for them to switch to totally another game style "just like that". First session was just a try.

2. You can always give them suggestions directly ("Are you SURE you want to do it this way?" "Look, you can try to talk your way out... It will be safer, cheaper - you don't get ammo and street doc for free, right? - and more discreet." Or just "hey, now you can do this or that.")

3. Make social and Matrix actions more emotional. Examples:
- if PCs have meeting with local oyabun, let them know that guy doesn't like metahumans. And he has really good security. AND his help may be crucial for PCs' mission. If they make any faux pas... will he just say "get out and don't show here anymore", or order his soldiers to geek the runners?
- when runners are supressed by drone's fire, it's good idea to hack these drones... if only team's hacker/TM can beat security hacker, IC and encryption. It's a part of the battle.
MikeKozar
I don't know if it's been suggested already, but you can get a lot of mileage out of a veteran NPC who will show the players the ropes. You can even use him as a tutorial, getting the players deep into a facility without triggering any alerts by making the smart move and having the right gear every time, until they get the paydata and he gets fried by a security system. Suddenly the players realize they're at the bottom of a very deep hole and the guy with the codes just bought it. With any luck, they'll remember the tricks he used and use them to get back out.
Ascalaphus
QUOTE (MikeKozar @ Nov 13 2009, 01:01 AM) *
I don't know if it's been suggested already, but you can get a lot of mileage out of a veteran NPC who will show the players the ropes. You can even use him as a tutorial, getting the players deep into a facility without triggering any alerts by making the smart move and having the right gear every time, until they get the paydata and he gets fried by a security system. Suddenly the players realize they're at the bottom of a very deep hole and the guy with the codes just bought it. With any luck, they'll remember the tricks he used and use them to get back out.


Watch some movies with scenes like this for inspiration. It can be a nice mini-adventure, training.
Shot
I like the training NPC idea. Gives a nice chance to flesh out an important NPC and gives the PCs an idea on how to interact with NPCs. Also the general idea on how to play SR. If my team chooses to continue on the destruction part i do believe South America and Africa seem like excellent places to have a very combat focus SR adventure with NPCs still playing a big part. Love the suggestion guys.
Drraagh
So, to make sure I understand, the original post was 'How do I turn SR from a Dungeon Crawl into something more?' and 'How do I turn it from a slaughterfest?'

First, the job of a GM is to provide the palyers with a good time. If the players want to be mass murders who charge in, seek out anything living to kill and then leave, then you have two choices.
First, you can put them in positions where that can happen, such as taking them out of the city and putting them into a warzone. Or, turn them into something akin to a SWAT team, that way, they can charge into a building, kill the terrorists and save the hostages. If they kill the hostages, there will be hell to paqy and then they should start learning.
Second, you can, as some people have suggested, work to wean them away from this. The way is to provide them both in game and out of game ideas. Some people have mentioned movies, which is definately an option. I am working on a video compilation of how I perceive shadowrun, so that way people will be able to see 'This is my world, here is how I interpret the rules and theme'. Another way is the NPC option people mentioned. But not just veteran PCs. Blackjack's Guide for Bitter Gamemastering had an article 'Threat to the Profession' about a possible way to deal with PC killing teams. There also was an article more about drawing people out into roleplay, called 'Personality Problems', but it mentioned teaming a runner up with some almost insane runners trying plans like involving hot air balloons and suction cup arrows.

Those will allow PCs to experience different possible actions, seeing the worst sort of tactics, the best sort of tactics, and also seeing what punishment happens for people who do kill without remorse. Add in the movies, maybe even check online for some military manuals/videos, as I showed my team some stuff on military breaching and fields of fire for marching and some SWAT tactics for urban assault, to give them some idea on how professionals may carry themselves and act. It's like the opening of Ronin, at first you're wondering why the guy is walking all over the place, and then he tells you that he never walks into a place without knowing how to walk out.

Now, the other part of this situation is the GM. Blackjack had another article called 'Cannon Fodder' where he basically made NPCs as targets for people to shoot. Which meant, he was providing the PCs with a shooting gallery. If you don't want them to turn it into combat, then do some stuff like; put them into situations where shooting is not the only option, have the NPCs act like real people with motivations and friends and family (people who will miss them and maybe even hire runners to hunt them down or do it themselves or the like), also try and show that Shadowrun (much like a lot of cyberpunk) is full of shades of grey. The corporate person is working for a corporation to feed their family and provide security and benefits and may not know about all the shadowy details of the corp. A cop may be working to keep the streets safe for their friends and family safe, but at the same time, maybe they're just C-average students looking to let out their frustrations.

Craft the world you want to play in, give rewards for doing the 'right' thing and penalties and punishments for doing the 'wrong' thing, and players will begin to realize what gets them rewards. Sure, it's Pavlovian, but it is all just a game.
Kumo
@Drraagh:
your link to "Blackjack's Guide..." doesn't work.
JaronK
As a rule, I find that if your PCs are going for guns every time, that's because guns work. Make situations where guns make them lose... and have smart enough security for that to work.

JaronK
Jericho Alar
QUOTE (Kumo @ Nov 16 2009, 06:29 AM) *
@Drraagh:
your link to "Blackjack's Guide..." doesn't work.


it 'does'; just remove the extra http:// language in front of it;

like here should do it
StealthSigma
QUOTE (Lok1 :) @ Nov 9 2009, 06:01 PM) *
devil.gif WARNING OVERSIMPLFIED, BIASED, AND MOSTLY UNHELPFULL ADVICE INCOMEING!!!!!!!! devil.gif

Just convince them to convert over to 4th D&D, thats the type of player that system was built for and get some a group of players that will play shadowrun correctly.


Despite being a joke.... I can't believe you'd recommend 4th over 3rd....

QUOTE (Lok1 :) @ Nov 9 2009, 06:01 PM) *
Ok now that I got that out of my system I can give you some real advice. smokin.gif
I agree with alot of the people hear in that the problem is a mixture of both yours and the players fault. You've all gotten hooked into a bad style of play. I suggest either moveing on to another system/group or talking to your players and begin moveing the game gradually away from that direction. Realy though the best advice I can give you is change systems/settings for somthing more "Mor Kombat" style. If they like the futerist style perchance its time to go to battletech.

*Said advice may and most likely will be ridden with misspellings do to dyslexia.


Just because something isn't optimized within a system doesn't mean you have to go use another system. You just need to be move clever in how you present it. Personally I've found that when acting as a GM I have more fun presenting a problem to the players without any particular solution in mind. I'm fortunate that I can think on the fly fairly easily, and I find great entertainment in the ideas that others come up with. However this isn't for everyone.

My personal suggestion is to use one of the following two methods. Go along with their desire or provide incentives to them to act outside of the dungeon crawler mentality.

To go along would mean to put them in a SWAT, Black Ops, or merc style setting.

If you're going to provide incentives, it will work if they really are the loot the hell out of this dungeon crawlers. Shinies and phat lewts for doing things outside of the hack&slash method should work to alter their behavior, otherwise you will have to deal with the hack&slash or just call off playing.
Traul
QUOTE (Shot @ Nov 13 2009, 07:59 PM) *
I like the training NPC idea. Gives a nice chance to flesh out an important NPC and gives the PCs an idea on how to interact with NPCs. Also the general idea on how to play SR. If my team chooses to continue on the destruction part i do believe South America and Africa seem like excellent places to have a very combat focus SR adventure with NPCs still playing a big part. Love the suggestion guys.

Be careful not to overuse it: the NPC is here to help them, not to do their job. A remote hacker would be fine to set a boundary: he gets real time info, he can give them advice, but in the end your players are still the ones taking the final decision and doing stuff.
MikeKozar
QUOTE (Traul @ Nov 16 2009, 11:38 AM) *
Be careful not to overuse it: the NPC is here to help them, not to do their job.


Quite true - there's a real temptation to make the NPC into a GM PC, especially if he's a few hundred build points more experienced then the players. That's why I suggested letting him dispense his wisdom and then get killed - it keeps him from taking over, and reminds the players of how dangerous the job is.

Another way to do this would be the Aliens scenario - send the heroes in with a team of specialists, who all get picked off by the monster of the week in Act 1. Before they die, they can demonstrate some problem solving - security door bypass, breaching charges, miniwelder, smart firing platform/sentry gun, etc... and then get taken out. This lets you build up the tension without killing off the PCs. I'd probably make the third attack target a PC, just so they don't think they're going to die last - think of the facehugger attack in the lab.

Your suggestion about an off-site hacker is pretty solid...the 'Oracle' schtick is real handy, especially if you can find a way to make him very useful without being gamebreaking. A solid information broker (who always gets paid) and who can do basic hacks on the party's behalf is a two-birds, one-stone scenario. You've got a way to deliver backstory and exposition, and you don't have to split the party for Matrix action, just roll for it offscreen. The real trick is training the players to ask questions in the first place.
The Monk
Some of the ways I get long time D$D players interested in Shadowrun: two to three days before each game I send each player (via e-mail) what I title 6th world news. It's the newsworthy headlines from across the Shadowrun world.

Sometimes I make them up, but most of the times I just use the headlines from the various source books. I also like to parallel headlines from the New York Times.

Also before each game I read to them a short story or recap of last session in story form. In it I try to highlight the setting and the mood. There are great posts in the "vignette" thread that you could get some ideas from, or even use (I'm sure no one would mind, not that anyone could do anything about it).

Also tell them that you will give out extra Karma for anyone that writes a short story about their character, but the story must include some themes from the Shadowrun setting.

I also purchased a couple of Shadowrun novels and gave out extra Karma to anyone that read one.

The Shadowrun world is central in the game. I try to treat it like another NPC, once the players get to know it, their fun factor will go way up.

But you have to educate yourself with it as well, be sure to cement into your mind how you envision the world. What corporate life is like, what SINless life is like. What are the roles of law enforcement and organized crime. How do the people with SINs and the people without interact. How are they segregated. How are Metahumans treated in each caste. How do the players, contacts, and other NPCs fit into all of this.

Most of all, take your time. Keep the story simple but focus on the details of the setting. There is plenty of time to develop a complicated plot.
Saint Sithney
QUOTE (BlueMax @ Nov 9 2009, 04:16 PM) *
The problem is the system doesn't handle hack 'n' slash. Send the group to Africa and either they kill everything or the die fast. SR4(A) is a game of Glass Cannons and as such, it doesn't fit certain playstyles.

BlueMax


There are things you can do to make it more hack 'n' slash. For instance, you could reduce the rate at which armor encumbrance affects agility, so that even the waifs have an option to sacrifice a little mobility for extra protection. Second, you can alter the rules for stun damage, so that if someone's damage is converted to stun, and the stun damage is half the target's impact armor or less, then the amount of stun taken is reduced. That way you get that sort of North Hollywood Shootout feel where no amount of small arms fire can stop a guy wearing 3 layers of protection. And finally, you can even beef up the stun track to 8+will. And now you've basically the same situation as a heavily armored fighter wading through a sea of kobalds. The troll tank with 22/24 B/I armor and Platelet Factories should be able to soak up 9mm like walking through a light rain.

And CD, why would you want to roll dice to find out if a plot device being used to maximize everyone's enjoyment worked or not? Or are you concerned that they didn't get a chance to suicide in one of the many, many TPK scenarios which would arise from a group of people acting like they can: Walk into the front door of an R&D facility. Murder anyone who gets in their way. Then spend hours looting the place of anything not bolted down. Only to finally walk out of the door and go home? There is nothing in the Dungeon Crawling mentality which, to me, suggests that these folks are going to have the slightest defense against walking out of a stuffershack into a barrage of stick and shock so thick that you can't fit two fingers between them. Is it that they didn't get a perception test to see that they were inconceivably fragged to the gills? I doubt that a crew such as that has used an Observe in Detail action outside of finding gold fillings to pry out of dead guards' teeth. But, you know what? That kind of play is just fine, in Africa. If you want to scavenge off the dead and build a stronghold full of stolen loot, Africa is the place. If you want to kick in doors with machine gunner teams and liquidate every thing with breath, then welcome to Africa. If you are interested in exploring an underground city full of ancient magic and extra-planar horror, then don't bother with the travel agent. I've got your boarding passes right here - a one way trip to the glorious Motherland, of Africa.
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