How do Cyberlimbs stack?, Armor Attributes, specifically Options

[mikal]

I've been messing around with concepts, wondering how cyberlimbs work specifically.
I've been wanting to do a Terminator or Robocop esque Samurai.

In Augmentation it says that the basic limbs can go to race's natural maxs (for a human, 6), then augmented up to 9. My question is this: Do the armor ratings of each limb stack, or are they seperate.
i.e. if I get max armor rating on each limb, will I have an armor of 16, or just 4?
If so, what happens with mismatched armor ratings?

[Godwyn]

Generally, with mismatched armor ratings you just apply whichever is higher in that situation. Generally, SR does not allow armor stacking except for specific instances, such as mystic armor (or FFBA, but it is another issue). If I recall correctly, the purpose in armoring a cyberlimb was to keep it matched up with natural armor (troll) and dermal plating or other natural enhancements, which are not technically applied to the limb.

[mikal]

Generally, with mismatched armor ratings you just apply whichever is higher in that situation. Generally, SR does not allow armor stacking except for specific instances, such as mystic armor (or FFBA, but it is another issue). If I recall correctly, the purpose in armoring a cyberlimb was to keep it matched up with natural armor (troll) and dermal plating or other natural enhancements, which are not technically applied to the limb.

So with that armor, would it stack with "regular" armor, like natural armor or dermal plating does? Or is it useless, maxing out only at 4?

[pbangarth]

There was some discussion about the armor in cyberlimbs a while ago. Good search-fu should find the old thread.

A developer answered a question about this, saying that one calculated the 'armor value' of a person, before worn armor, by taking the average of arms, legs and torso. So, if you put 2 points of armor into each of those five parts, you had armor rating 2. If you had 2,2,1,0,0, then you had armor rating 1. This is an armor rating that adds to the worn armor without adding to encumbrance, just as troll dermaplating, or other dermal modifications.

And of course, there are many who repeatedly point out, "A developer's opinion is just that, an opinion. It isn't RAW." Fact is, RAW doesn't answer the question, so I take the developer's word for it.

[mikal]

There was some discussion about the armor in cyberlimbs a while ago. Good search-fu should find the old thread.

A developer answered a question about this, saying that one calculated the 'armor value' of a person, before worn armor, by taking the average of arms, legs and torso. So, if you put 2 points of armor into each of those five parts, you had armor rating 2. If you had 2,2,1,0,0, then you had armor rating 1. This is an armor rating that adds to the worn armor without adding to encumbrance, just as troll dermaplating, or other dermal modifications.

And of course, there are many who repeatedly point out, "A developer's opinion is just that, an opinion. It isn't RAW." Fact is, RAW doesn't answer the question, so I take the developer's word for it.

Well I was kinda hoping to be able to have small arms fire bounce off my shiny metal hide, the extra 4 armor can't hurt at all when wearing other stuff.

[Ol' Scratch]

Wow, that house rule is horribly broken. It makes cyberlimb armor useless for practically anyone except serious cyber types who get multiple limbs. o.O

And the rules are pretty clear on it. First of all "armor" isn't an attribute so trying to use the rules for cyberlimb attributes is ridiculous. Second, the rules state that the armor is cumulative with all other forms of armor. Third, it works just like any other piecemail type of armor in the game. The most notable examples being helmets and the SecureTech PPP System. The heavy-duty armor they strap to a cyberlimb is easily the equivalence of a helm or shinguard. If you're going to fractionalize that you may as well start fractionalizing every single piece of armor in the game. Especially armored vests. I mean, it only protects the torso which counts as a single limb. So that 6/4 rating drops to 1/0. Mmm, balance.

If they're worried about cyberlimb armor enhancements being overpowered -- as they should since it is -- they just need to add a line where it counts against encumbrance in the same way that Form-Fitting Body Armor does. Problem solved.

[Godwyn]

Exactly. Built-in/Natural armor stacks with what you wear, but I always averaged the armor for all the areas as well, even if it is not RAW. RAW has you do the same thing for differing stats, why not for armor.

[mikal]

Hmm... both interesting view points. If I actually get to try such a character I'll see what the GM allows.
With optimized cyberlimbs and a MBW or WR for the extra IP's I should be good to go.

[Karoline]

Wow, that house rule is horribly broken. It makes cyberlimb armor useless for practically anyone except serious cyber types who get multiple limbs. o.O

And the rules are pretty clear on it. First of all "armor" isn't an attribute so trying to use the rules for cyberlimb attributes is ridiculous. Second, the rules state that the armor is cumulative with all other forms of armor. Third, it works just like any other piecemail type of armor in the game. The most notable examples being helmets and the SecureTech PPP System. The heavy-duty armor they strap to a cyberlimb is easily the equivalence of a helm or shinguard. If you're going to fractionalize that you may as well start fractionalizing every single piece of armor in the game. Especially armored vests. I mean, it only protects the torso which counts as a single limb. So that 6/4 rating drops to 1/0. Mmm, balance.

If they're worried about cyberlimb armor enhancements being overpowered -- as they should since it is -- they just need to add a line where it counts against encumbrance in the same way that Form-Fitting Body Armor does. Problem solved.

First off, that isn't a house rule, that is what a developer said was how it was supposed to work.

Second, you're comparing a +8/+8 bonus from a pair of armored cyber limbs to a +1/+2 bonus from a pair of PPP shin guards. You divide the +8/+8 by 5 and you get 1.6, which is -really- close to the PPP system you are comparing it to, so yeah, sounds fair to me to have it divided.

If you think about it, a full set of PPP gets you a total bonus of what? Something like +4/+4? Maybe a bit higher? Which is exactly what you would get from having a fully armored cyberbody. So yes, it does end up working exactly like PPP -if- you divide it. Otherwise it is 5 times more effective.

The reason you fictionalize the cyberlimbs and not other kinds of armor is that they already have that factored in. PPP as a full set is around +4/+4, but when you only have the legs part it drops down to +1/+2. Presto bingo you have fictionalization of PPP. Same goes for other armored things. Notice how a jacket offers more armor than a vest? That's because it covers more of your body. Impressively enough full body armor provides even more protection because... wow, amazing, it covers more of your body.

I also find it funny that as a solution to your interpretation of RAW you add in a house rule instead of accepting the other interpretation (The one supported by devs) which follows RAW all the way. You cry "No, you can't interpret it that way, it isn't RAW... but if you use my RAW you have to add this house rule so it isn't broken."

[Mongoose]

If you're going to fractionalize that you may as well start fractionalizing every single piece of armor in the game. Especially armored vests. I mean, it only protects the torso which counts as a single limb. So that 6/4 rating drops to 1/0. Mmm, balance.

That's assuming the armored vest on its own only has a "cyberlimb armor" equivalency rating of 6/4. I figure the localized torso protection it provides is better than 6/4, but the protection in combat averages out to 6/4.

[Ol' Scratch]

First off, that isn't a house rule, that is what a developer said was how it was supposed to work.

No, that's a house rule. Just because a developer throws it out there, that doesn't make it anymore a real rule than anyone else doing the same thing. Especially when it's not even remotely supported anywhere in the actual rules.

Second, you're comparing a +8/+8 bonus from a pair of armored cyber limbs to a +1/+2 bonus from a pair of PPP shin guards.

No, I'm comparing +2/+2 on a single limb (the highest cyberlimb armor rating you can get at character generation without special rules) to +2/+2 on a single limb (milspec helmet), or alternatively the sectional value of PPP (which covers maybe a third or a half of a given limb in most cases) armor compared to the overall protection of a limb (100% coverage). Maxed out, it's "only" 4/4 for a single limb; twice the benefit of a helmet. Which is perfectly fine logically since the entire limb is protected in a massive amount (Capacity 8) of armor whereas even with a helm you have exposed areas and negligible interior reinforcement of the limb.

f you think about it, a full set of PPP gets you a total bonus of what? Something like +4/+4? Maybe a bit higher? Which is exactly what you would get from having a fully armored cyberbody. So yes, it does end up working exactly like PPP -if- you divide it. Otherwise it is 5 times more effective.

Except PPP is basically a relatively flimsy piece of sports gear versus hardcore full-limb armor. It damn well better be better protection than that. But I guess in your mind having a relatively tiny fraction of your body covered by that flimsy ass armor (and which only costs 1,000 nuyen) is the same as having your entire body plated in heavy-duty armor (a total Capacity of 48 and 7,200 nuyen if applied only to standard grade limbs -- which you can't do since that would be 6.25 Essence). Whatever works for you, I guess.

The reason you fictionalize the cyberlimbs and not other kinds of armor is that they already have that factored in.

No they don't. No more than an armor vest or any other piece of armor in the game does. There's a reason there aren't any special rules for cyberlimb armor. Because it's not treated any different than any other form of armor. Armor values already account for both the amount of area they cover and the quality of that coverage. Every. Single. Piece.

I also find it funny that as a solution to your interpretation of RAW you add in a house rule instead of accepting the other interpretation (The one supported by devs) which follows RAW all the way. You cry "No, you can't interpret it that way, it isn't RAW... but if you use my RAW you have to add this house rule so it isn't broken."

Actually I said their house rule was broken because it makes the cost, capacity, and availability of cyberlimb armor all but useless except to a virtual cyberzombie. Broken works both ways, overpowered and -- as it is in this case -- underpowered. And that rule is exceptionally broken. My proposal keeps it functioning just fine and dandy, doesn't require any special rules, and is supported by at least one other piece of armor in the game. The other one is completely and utterly alien to the system, not to mention awkward to describe let alone implement. My proposal fixes the problem of cyberlimb armor being completely abused without making it utterly useless to someone who just wants one or two limbs. God forbid. Whether or not you agree with that is something else entirely, but I was hardly screaming about "RAW" or being hypocritical by suggesting it.

And yes, believe it or not, more than one thing can be broken at the same time. It's a novel concept, I realize that, but that doesn't make it any less true. The developer's house rule is ridiculously underpowered not to mention alien to the rules. The baseline rule for cyberlimb armor (and by extension nearly any piece of armor that has no restriction to its application) is broken if taken to the extreme. But it's a broken rule that can easily be fixed by applying a related rule to it. One that's not alien to the system and one that doesn't neuter it to oblivion.

The KISS Principle. Look it up sometime.

EDIT: Oh, and by the way, with that fractional armor house rule, you can't even get 4/4 armor. A cyberskull only has a Capacity of 4, meaning a max of Armor 2. And you round down with those fractional rules. So 3/3 is the best you can get as a full-conversion 'borg plated head to toe in armor.

[crizh]

A developer answered a question about this, saying that one calculated the 'armor value' of a person, before worn armor, by taking the average of arms, legs and torso.

Whoa, when, where?

Link?

That's a major rules shift.

[mikal]

Minor digression: I'm assuming cyberlimbs do Physical damage, like metal bones do. Is this damage detailed anywhere?

[Cheshyr]

So 3/3 is the best you can get as a full-conversion 'borg plated head to toe in armor.

I'm not looking to jump into the middle of this fight, but... I find it coincidental that 3/3 is also the max you can get for Orthoskin and Dermal Plating, which are examples of other forms of stackable armors that sound like they should be comparable with Cyberlimbs. That said, full replacement cyberlimbs costs quite a bit more essence than the other two suggestions. While I'd like to think there should be additional armor allowed, part of me thinks the 3/3 limit was intentional so balance armor levels... which means the essence cost should be lowered, unless the nuyen cost is significantly cheaper. Not in front of books at the moment, so I can't really say...

It was my understanding that cyberlimbs were Physical Damage, but I can't quote the reference off the top of my head.

[pbangarth]

Crizh, it was a question I submitted on the FanPro Shadowrun help site a couple of years ago. Rob Boyle answered it. I posted it in Dumpshock HERE, but I copy it below. The weblink in the message goes to something else now, so you will just have to trust me, I guess, that this conversation actually took place. At the moment, I can't find the followup email in which he said don't use the head in the calculation of average.
#####
Hi Peter,

> I sent this message quite a while ago, and as you guys are usually quick in your responses, I wonder if the message got lost. It could be that it is a difficult question, and you need time to figure it out, and if so please forgive me for bothering you with this repeat send.

No, I just haven't gotten around to answering yet. I'll take a quick shot at it here.


I understand how the calculation for BOD, AGI and STR works for determining the average values for those Attributes in a character. It is not clear to me how armor works. There seem to be two options to deal with it. Does either of them apply?

1) ARMOR IN INCREMENTS

In a character who is not cybered, wearing an armored vest, which covers only the torso, gives that character an armor value equal to that of the vest. Covering only the head with a helmet adds to the armor rating of the individual, rather than requiring an averaging calculation. A small shield does the same. It would seem, then, that adding armor to a cyberlimb would also increment the overall armor rating of the character, rather than requiring an average to be calculated.

Particularly if only one cyberlimb had armor, and the other limbs, cyber- or otherwise, did not, an averaging would require using a value of 0 for those limbs in the calculation.

The way it was intentioned, IIRC, was that cyberlimb armor really only applied when that particular limb was targeted with an attack (like a called shot, or only that part of the person isn't behind cover). So it doesn't normally get added to the character's overall Armor rating. This was partly for simplicity. It's a bit different from helmets and shields because helmets cover a more vital area and shields cover more of the body.

I can see an argument for adding at least part of the value in, however, so I would allow it. In that case, I'd add the average Armor value, though (using non-armored limbs as a 0).

2) 'NATURAL' ARMOR

Following that idea of the value of 0 for unarmored limbs, worn armor adds onto an averaged natural body armor of 0, which could be augmented by cyberlimbs. Only after the average 'natural' armor value is calculated is the worn armor value added. This would then pretty well require all five cyberlimbs to be armored before it would have any effect.

Cyberlimb armor should be treated as "natural" and not worn armor, yeah.

B))
If cyberlimbs have armor enhancement, is it reasonable to presume that this armor value is considered 'internal' and therefore does not count in the encumbrance calculation on p.149 of SR4?

Correct.

I hope that helps (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

:: Rob Boyle ::
Shadowrun Developer for FanPro LLC
info@shadowrunrpg.com ~ www.shadowrunrpg.com

#####

Take this how you want, I guess. He certainly didn't sound as if he were stating RAW, but rather his interpretation.

[Traul]

Minor digression: I'm assuming cyberlimbs do Physical damage, like metal bones do. Is this damage detailed anywhere?

STR/2P. As the amount of damage does not change, they did not tab it anywhere. The physical damage is just noted somewhere int the text description of cyberlimbs.

[crizh]

While I hate to disagree with Rob I can easily cite numerous instances on either side of that particular exchange that directly contradict it.

Here and here for example.

Admittedly Frank is no longer on the dev team but he was at the time. In particular that first thread is littered with posts from Synner that never see fit to contradict Frank's stance.

This argument never ceases to amaze me, have you ever tried to build a real PC that exploits cyberlimb armour stacking?

It costs 6.25 Essence for a full replacement and nearly 100,000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) . Compare that to the cost of Dermal Plating or Orthoskin or the potential armour value of a full Cyborg body.

The averaging rule clearly doesn't stack up against Orthoskin or Dermal plating, it costs 4 to 5 times as much Essence and up to 10 times as much money for the same effect. Comparing it to an Otomo is even worse and realistically the difference is very small, an Otomo has to carry a life support system and can still mange to mount up to 18 points of Vehicle armour.

The fact remains that SR4 doesn't have any hit location system. If you want to avoid the armour on an otherwise naked target's shins then you take a DP penalty for a called shot. There should never be any circumstance where the limited coverage of a piece of armour reduces it's effectiveness. It's coverage is factored into it's Rating by design.

[Saint Sithney]

I've got to weigh in to the stack camp. The 2 capacity for each level of armor is a considerable amount of metal/ceramic/whatever. Armor 4 is basically like having over a half inch of reinforced steel covering every surface of that limb. Trying to compare that to shin guards or even a helmet is a far stretch.

[Squinky]

Man, we have been over this so many times....

Cyberlimb armor simply adds its rating, no dividing, nothing.

Anyone who talks about dividing is mixing up SR3 rules.

I can't remember the specific thread, but a dev reinforced this in the past.

[Medicineman]

Man, we have been over this so many times....

Cyberlimb armor simply adds its rating, no dividing, nothing.

Anyone who talks about dividing is mixing up SR3 rules.

I can't remember the specific thread, but a dev reinforced this in the past.

Thats exactly how it Works (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
Cyberlimb Armor is not an Attribute so it doesn't get averaged

Hough !
Medicineman

[Karoline]

It costs 6.25 Essence for a full replacement and nearly 100,000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) . Compare that to the cost of Dermal Plating or Orthoskin or the potential armour value of a full Cyborg body.

Which would be a fair argument if all you got out of having five cyberlimbs was extra armor. But you also get... cyberlimbs out of the deal, which means possibly increased stats all around. It also means tons of capacity to put all kinds of fun bonuses in. And of course you are only looking at all or nothing. You couldn't get the armor up to 4 at CG, but it wouldn't be hard (And certainly not expensive) to get it shortly after. It takes 2 essence and 32400 to get two cyberlimbs with maxed armor on them, that gives you 8 bonus points of armor, along with still having 12 capacity on each limb. Then you can throw in getting your stats up to double digits for a bit of extra nuyen, and spending no more essence, which means you now have not only a rating 8 orthoskin, you also have rating 8ish (or however much you want) muscle enhancement, oh, and the rough equivalent of titanium bone lacing.

As for PPP being 'flimsy sports gear' I'm fairly sure the description of it is more along the lines of "The SecureTech PPP (Personal Protection Piecemeal) System consists of padded densiplast sections that the wearer can combine to give additional protection to several body parts." And densiplastic is rated the same as 'bulletproof' glass and security doors, so it isn't exactly 'flimsy'.

No they don't. No more than an armor vest or any other piece of armor in the game does. There's a reason there aren't any special rules for cyberlimb armor. Because it's not treated any different than any other form of armor. Armor values already account for both the amount of area they cover and the quality of that coverage. Every. Single. Piece.

Nice self contradiction there. You start by saying that armor doesn't take fractionation into account by how much they cover, then a sentence or so later you say that armor takes into account how much it covers.

EDIT: Oh, and by the way, with that fractional armor house rule, you can't even get 4/4 armor. A cyberskull only has a Capacity of 4, meaning a max of Armor 2. And you round down with those fractional rules. So 3/3 is the best you can get as a full-conversion 'borg plated head to toe in armor.

May want to do your math again. Armor value is divided by 5. There are six limbs you could theoretically get armor on, so you can go with 'just' torso, both arms, and both legs, and end up with 4/4 armor.

I'm not saying that the divide by 5 rule is great, I'm just saying that a single cyberleg with armor 4 is equal to rating 4 orthoskin for a fraction of the cost and the same amount of essence, and that is before adding in the fact that you then have the other benefits of a cyberlimb to play with. Heck it is even cheaper than a theoretical rating 4 dermal plating which would cost an extra 1 point of essence, and once again has more advantages.

Actually I said their house rule was broken because it makes the cost, capacity, and availability of cyberlimb armor all but useless except to a virtual cyberzombie

Your right, because 300 nuyen a rating is going to break the bank. Your problem is that you are looking at getting a cyberlimb as a means of getting the armor, instead of the armor being a cheap and handy addition when already having the limb. Sure, if you go get all your limbs chopped off and replaced with cyberlimbs for the sole purpose of the armor they provide, they are fairly expensive. But if you are getting a cyberlimb because of the dozen other advantages to them, and you just happen to go "Hey, why not throw some armor on there?" then yeah, not dividing is absurdly overpowered. But dividing provides a nice little 1 bonus point of armor (Which is more or less equivalent to the penalty you get to orthoskin and such for having cyberlimbs, isn't it?)

[OneTrikPony]

But you also get... cyberlimbs out of the deal

Which is a huge penalty.

When you put a cyberlimb on a character you have doomed yourself to a situation where you have to buy every upgrade twice.

It takes 2 essence and 32400 to get two cyberlimbs with maxed armor on them, that gives you 8 bonus points of armor, along with still having 12 capacity on each limb [Obvious cyber legs only]. Then you can throw in getting your stats up to double digits for a bit of extra nuyen, and spending no more essence, which means you now have not only a rating 8 orthoskin, you also have rating 8ish (or however much you want) muscle enhancement, oh, and the rough equivalent of titanium bone lacing.

get you stats up to double digits? Rating (however much you want muscle replacement)? For a bit of extra nuyen? WOW. I wana play at your table.

First consider that orthoskin, musle toner, muscle augmentation, titanium bonelace, all cost the same wether you have two cyberlegs or not. So If I want cyberlegs and some nifty bio/bodyware I have to pay for that AND I have to pay for two customized cyberlegs for which I have to pay extra just to get them up to par with my meat body. After I've paid alot of nuyen and pretty much filled the capacity of the legs to get them atributes that are somewhere near my augmented meat body I might be able to fit something cool in there, Like a bio monitor or something. And that's only if my meat atributes are low enough that I can get the legs at an atainable availability.

Also If I have titanimum bone lace +3 damage unarmed, and i put cyberlegs on that character I loose half of that bonus because RAW. Because bulky armored obvious metal ceramic mechanical limbs do not give a damage bonus.

Stacking cyberlimb armor is the only, sole, single, thing that balances the bad idea of having to replace your meat counterparts.

I'm here to promote the house rule that each full cyber replacement should lower the essence and nuyen cost of bodyware by 15%

[StealthSigma]

First consider that orthoskin, musle toner, muscle augmentation, titanium bonelace, all cost the same wether you have two cyberlegs or not. So If I want cyberlegs and some nifty bio/bodyware I have to pay for that AND I have to pay for two customized cyberlegs for which I have to pay extra just to get them up to par with my meat body. After I've paid alot of nuyen and pretty much filled the capacity of the legs to get them atributes that are somewhere near my augmented meat body I might be able to fit something cool in there, Like a bio monitor or something. And that's only if my meat atributes are low enough that I can get the legs at an atainable availability.

Also If I have titanimum bone lace +3 damage unarmed, and i put cyberlegs on that character I loose half of that bonus because RAW. Because bulky armored obvious metal ceramic mechanical limbs do not give a damage bonus.

Stacking cyberlimb armor is the only, sole, single, thing that balances the bad idea of having to replace your meat counterparts.

I'm here to promote the house rule that each full cyber replacement should lower the essence and nuyen cost of bodyware by 15%

You're working from the presumption that cyberlimbs are desirable to replace your meat limb. That's that penalty of cyberlimbs. The benefit of cyberlimbs comes from what you can do with them that you cannot do with your meat limbs. Embed weapons, smuggling compartments, other cyber upgrades. It provides an avenue to -decrease- your cyber essence cost by embedding other cyberware within the limb. Olfactory Booster 6? 1.2 essence as a piece of headware. Plop it in your cyberarm and you get it for no additional essence cost.

Stacking cyberlimb armor is far from the only, sole, single thing that makes cyberlimbs a good choice.

Disclaimer: I am in no means suggesting that people get olfactory boosters in cyberlegs in order to smell people through olfactory sensors embedded in cyberfeet.

[OneTrikPony]

Um, didn't I just say that cyberlimbs are a huge penalty? Oh ya, I did. It's right there at the top of my post.

Of course if that olfactory booster (1.2 essence) works out better in your cyber foot it's probably worth it to pay 30 grand for a cyberleg (1.0 essence) so you can save 0.2 essence.

Come on guys. Capacity and availablity mechanics dictate that in cyberlimbs you can have Atributes or Armor or Toys. Cyberlimbs are ballanced in that way. *if you use the stacking rules the way they're intended* You can have a fairly usefull mix of the three but don't expect better than average stats.

The imballance comes when you consider the fact that you can get the same thing cheaper by skiping the limbs and buying some ware at a higher grade.

[crizh]

I can see that your mind is made up about the need for this 'averaging' house rule but I'll try to cover each of your points anyway.

Which would be a fair argument if all you got out of having five cyberlimbs was extra armor. But you also get... cyberlimbs out of the deal, which means possibly increased stats all around. It also means tons of capacity to put all kinds of fun bonuses in. And of course you are only looking at all or nothing. You couldn't get the armor up to 4 at CG, but it wouldn't be hard (And certainly not expensive) to get it shortly after. It takes 2 essence and 32400 to get two cyberlimbs with maxed armor on them, that gives you 8 bonus points of armor, along with still having 12 capacity on each limb. Then you can throw in getting your stats up to double digits for a bit of extra nuyen, and spending no more essence, which means you now have not only a rating 8 orthoskin, you also have rating 8ish (or however much you want) muscle enhancement, oh, and the rough equivalent of titanium bone lacing.

The point was not that Cyberlimbs aren't good but that the theoretical 20 Armour bogey-man doesn't exist except on the GM's side of the screen. The legs example is a bit disingenuous, all the best mod's are for arms. What's the point of having double digit stat's in your legs? Ever tried squeezing four points of armour and double digit stat's into a cyberarm?

As for PPP being 'flimsy sports gear' I'm fairly sure the description of it is more along the lines of "The SecureTech PPP (Personal Protection Piecemeal) System consists of padded densiplast sections that the wearer can combine to give additional protection to several body parts." And densiplastic is rated the same as 'bulletproof' glass and security doors, so it isn't exactly 'flimsy'.

Good point, thanks for raising it. How exactly do you explain toughened skin being more effective than the maximum amount of kevlar, face hardened 2072 alloys and angled ballistic plate that can be supported on a a completely mechanical limb?

What you are saying with this house rule is that a Street Sam' that looks like Iron Man only has 4 points of armour but that the exact same armour on a heavy military exoskeleton is 18/16.

Nice self contradiction there. You start by saying that armor doesn't take fractionation into account by how much they cover, then a sentence or so later you say that armor takes into account how much it covers.

That isn't a contradiction at all but is interesting that you try to ignore the point made by saying so.

You know full well how the SR4 armour system works. Armour value is an abstract figure that represents both armour quality and coverage.

SR4 has always been, by design, hit-location agnostic.

Look at it this way, the materials involved in fitting Armour 4 to a Cyber-torso are, in all probability, almost identical in design, make-up and coverage to an Armour Vest. Except with the house-rule you are determined is necessary those same materials only provide 1 point of Armour.

May want to do your math again. Armor value is divided by 5. There are six limbs you could theoretically get armor on, so you can go with 'just' torso, both arms, and both legs, and end up with 4/4 armor.

So if I go the whole hog I get 7/7 because you don't average the skull? Maybe I should just get the skull...

I'm not saying that the divide by 5 rule is great, I'm just saying that a single cyberleg with armor 4 is equal to rating 4 orthoskin for a fraction of the cost and the same amount of essence, and that is before adding in the fact that you then have the other benefits of a cyberlimb to play with. Heck it is even cheaper than a theoretical rating 4 dermal plating which would cost an extra 1 point of essence, and once again has more advantages.

But that's the wrong comparison to make. A single Cyber-leg with max armour is about the same as a quarter of the heaviest military grade armour it is possible to fit on a human sized frame. Which, as they are exactly the same stuff, makes sense.

Your right, because 300 nuyen a rating is going to break the bank. Your problem is that you are looking at getting a cyberlimb as a means of getting the armor, instead of the armor being a cheap and handy addition when already having the limb. Sure, if you go get all your limbs chopped off and replaced with cyberlimbs for the sole purpose of the armor they provide, they are fairly expensive. But if you are getting a cyberlimb because of the dozen other advantages to them, and you just happen to go "Hey, why not throw some armor on there?" then yeah, not dividing is absurdly overpowered. But dividing provides a nice little 1 bonus point of armor (Which is more or less equivalent to the penalty you get to orthoskin and such for having cyberlimbs, isn't it?)

Again Orthoskin and Armour Plating, not the same thing. One is inherently better than the other.

Assault rifles are inherently better than sling shots. Nuclear bombs are inherently better than Arbalests.

While from a balance perspective you might have a point from a realism, common sense and RAW perspective your proposed house rule is just flat wrong.

If you do get all your limbs chopped off and replaced with massively armour plated futuristic Terminator limbs and your chest and ribs removed and plated with the same futuristic anti-ballistic materials you can bet your ass you're expecting to get a shit load more than 4 points of armour.