I've been messing around with concepts, wondering how cyberlimbs work specifically.
I've been wanting to do a Terminator or Robocop esque Samurai.

In Augmentation it says that the basic limbs can go to race's natural maxs (for a human, 6), then augmented up to 9. My question is this: Do the armor ratings of each limb stack, or are they seperate.
i.e. if I get max armor rating on each limb, will I have an armor of 16, or just 4?
If so, what happens with mismatched armor ratings?

Generally, with mismatched armor ratings you just apply whichever is higher in that situation. Generally, SR does not allow armor stacking except for specific instances, such as mystic armor (or FFBA, but it is another issue). If I recall correctly, the purpose in armoring a cyberlimb was to keep it matched up with natural armor (troll) and dermal plating or other natural enhancements, which are not technically applied to the limb.

So with that armor, would it stack with "regular" armor, like natural armor or dermal plating does? Or is it useless, maxing out only at 4?

There was some discussion about the armor in cyberlimbs a while ago. Good search-fu should find the old thread.

A developer answered a question about this, saying that one calculated the 'armor value' of a person, before worn armor, by taking the average of arms, legs and torso. So, if you put 2 points of armor into each of those five parts, you had armor rating 2. If you had 2,2,1,0,0, then you had armor rating 1. This is an armor rating that adds to the worn armor without adding to encumbrance, just as troll dermaplating, or other dermal modifications.

And of course, there are many who repeatedly point out, "A developer's opinion is just that, an opinion. It isn't RAW." Fact is, RAW doesn't answer the question, so I take the developer's word for it.

Well I was kinda hoping to be able to have small arms fire bounce off my shiny metal hide, the extra 4 armor can't hurt at all when wearing other stuff.

Wow, that house rule is horribly broken. It makes cyberlimb armor useless for practically anyone except serious cyber types who get multiple limbs. o.O

And the rules are pretty clear on it. First of all "armor" isn't an attribute so trying to use the rules for cyberlimb attributes is ridiculous. Second, the rules state that the armor is cumulative with all other forms of armor. Third, it works just like any other piecemail type of armor in the game. The most notable examples being helmets and the SecureTech PPP System. The heavy-duty armor they strap to a cyberlimb is easily the equivalence of a helm or shinguard. If you're going to fractionalize that you may as well start fractionalizing every single piece of armor in the game. Especially armored vests. I mean, it only protects the torso which counts as a single limb. So that 6/4 rating drops to 1/0. Mmm, balance.

If they're worried about cyberlimb armor enhancements being overpowered -- as they should since it is -- they just need to add a line where it counts against encumbrance in the same way that Form-Fitting Body Armor does. Problem solved.

Exactly. Built-in/Natural armor stacks with what you wear, but I always averaged the armor for all the areas as well, even if it is not RAW. RAW has you do the same thing for differing stats, why not for armor.

Hmm... both interesting view points. If I actually get to try such a character I'll see what the GM allows.
With optimized cyberlimbs and a MBW or WR for the extra IP's I should be good to go.

First off, that isn't a house rule, that is what a developer said was how it was supposed to work.

Second, you're comparing a +8/+8 bonus from a pair of armored cyber limbs to a +1/+2 bonus from a pair of PPP shin guards. You divide the +8/+8 by 5 and you get 1.6, which is -really- close to the PPP system you are comparing it to, so yeah, sounds fair to me to have it divided.

If you think about it, a full set of PPP gets you a total bonus of what? Something like +4/+4? Maybe a bit higher? Which is exactly what you would get from having a fully armored cyberbody. So yes, it does end up working exactly like PPP -if- you divide it. Otherwise it is 5 times more effective.

The reason you fictionalize the cyberlimbs and not other kinds of armor is that they already have that factored in. PPP as a full set is around +4/+4, but when you only have the legs part it drops down to +1/+2. Presto bingo you have fictionalization of PPP. Same goes for other armored things. Notice how a jacket offers more armor than a vest? That's because it covers more of your body. Impressively enough full body armor provides even more protection because... wow, amazing, it covers more of your body.

I also find it funny that as a solution to your interpretation of RAW you add in a house rule instead of accepting the other interpretation (The one supported by devs) which follows RAW all the way. You cry "No, you can't interpret it that way, it isn't RAW... but if you use my RAW you have to add this house rule so it isn't broken."

That's assuming the armored vest on its own only has a "cyberlimb armor" equivalency rating of 6/4. I figure the localized torso protection it provides is better than 6/4, but the protection in combat averages out to 6/4.

No, that's a house rule. Just because a developer throws it out there, that doesn't make it anymore a real rule than anyone else doing the same thing. Especially when it's not even remotely supported anywhere in the actual rules.


No, I'm comparing +2/+2 on a single limb (the highest cyberlimb armor rating you can get at character generation without special rules) to +2/+2 on a single limb (milspec helmet), or alternatively the sectional value of PPP (which covers maybe a third or a half of a given limb in most cases) armor compared to the overall protection of a limb (100% coverage). Maxed out, it's "only" 4/4 for a single limb; twice the benefit of a helmet. Which is perfectly fine logically since the entire limb is protected in a massive amount (Capacity 8) of armor whereas even with a helm you have exposed areas and negligible interior reinforcement of the limb.


Except PPP is basically a relatively flimsy piece of sports gear versus hardcore full-limb armor. It damn well better be better protection than that. But I guess in your mind having a relatively tiny fraction of your body covered by that flimsy ass armor (and which only costs 1,000 nuyen) is the same as having your entire body plated in heavy-duty armor (a total Capacity of 48 and 7,200 nuyen if applied only to standard grade limbs -- which you can't do since that would be 6.25 Essence). Whatever works for you, I guess.


No they don't. No more than an armor vest or any other piece of armor in the game does. There's a reason there aren't any special rules for cyberlimb armor. Because it's not treated any different than any other form of armor. Armor values already account for both the amount of area they cover and the quality of that coverage. Every. Single. Piece.


Actually I said their house rule was broken because it makes the cost, capacity, and availability of cyberlimb armor all but useless except to a virtual cyberzombie. Broken works both ways, overpowered and -- as it is in this case -- underpowered. And that rule is exceptionally broken. My proposal keeps it functioning just fine and dandy, doesn't require any special rules, and is supported by at least one other piece of armor in the game. The other one is completely and utterly alien to the system, not to mention awkward to describe let alone implement. My proposal fixes the problem of cyberlimb armor being completely abused without making it utterly useless to someone who just wants one or two limbs. God forbid. Whether or not you agree with that is something else entirely, but I was hardly screaming about "RAW" or being hypocritical by suggesting it.

And yes, believe it or not, more than one thing can be broken at the same time. It's a novel concept, I realize that, but that doesn't make it any less true. The developer's house rule is ridiculously underpowered not to mention alien to the rules. The baseline rule for cyberlimb armor (and by extension nearly any piece of armor that has no restriction to its application) is broken if taken to the extreme. But it's a broken rule that can easily be fixed by applying a related rule to it. One that's not alien to the system and one that doesn't neuter it to oblivion.

The KISS Principle. Look it up sometime.

EDIT: Oh, and by the way, with that fractional armor house rule, you can't even get 4/4 armor. A cyberskull only has a Capacity of 4, meaning a max of Armor 2. And you round down with those fractional rules. So 3/3 is the best you can get as a full-conversion 'borg plated head to toe in armor.

Whoa, when, where?

Link?

That's a major rules shift.

Minor digression: I'm assuming cyberlimbs do Physical damage, like metal bones do. Is this damage detailed anywhere?

I'm not looking to jump into the middle of this fight, but... I find it coincidental that 3/3 is also the max you can get for Orthoskin and Dermal Plating, which are examples of other forms of stackable armors that sound like they should be comparable with Cyberlimbs. That said, full replacement cyberlimbs costs quite a bit more essence than the other two suggestions. While I'd like to think there should be additional armor allowed, part of me thinks the 3/3 limit was intentional so balance armor levels... which means the essence cost should be lowered, unless the nuyen cost is significantly cheaper. Not in front of books at the moment, so I can't really say...

It was my understanding that cyberlimbs were Physical Damage, but I can't quote the reference off the top of my head.

Crizh, it was a question I submitted on the FanPro Shadowrun help site a couple of years ago. Rob Boyle answered it. I posted it in Dumpshock HERE, but I copy it below. The weblink in the message goes to something else now, so you will just have to trust me, I guess, that this conversation actually took place. At the moment, I can't find the followup email in which he said don't use the head in the calculation of average.
#####
Hi Peter,

> I sent this message quite a while ago, and as you guys are usually quick in your responses, I wonder if the message got lost. It could be that it is a difficult question, and you need time to figure it out, and if so please forgive me for bothering you with this repeat send.

No, I just haven't gotten around to answering yet. I'll take a quick shot at it here.


I understand how the calculation for BOD, AGI and STR works for determining the average values for those Attributes in a character. It is not clear to me how armor works. There seem to be two options to deal with it. Does either of them apply?

1) ARMOR IN INCREMENTS

In a character who is not cybered, wearing an armored vest, which covers only the torso, gives that character an armor value equal to that of the vest. Covering only the head with a helmet adds to the armor rating of the individual, rather than requiring an averaging calculation. A small shield does the same. It would seem, then, that adding armor to a cyberlimb would also increment the overall armor rating of the character, rather than requiring an average to be calculated.

Particularly if only one cyberlimb had armor, and the other limbs, cyber- or otherwise, did not, an averaging would require using a value of 0 for those limbs in the calculation.

The way it was intentioned, IIRC, was that cyberlimb armor really only applied when that particular limb was targeted with an attack (like a called shot, or only that part of the person isn't behind cover). So it doesn't normally get added to the character's overall Armor rating. This was partly for simplicity. It's a bit different from helmets and shields because helmets cover a more vital area and shields cover more of the body.

I can see an argument for adding at least part of the value in, however, so I would allow it. In that case, I'd add the average Armor value, though (using non-armored limbs as a 0).

2) 'NATURAL' ARMOR

Following that idea of the value of 0 for unarmored limbs, worn armor adds onto an averaged natural body armor of 0, which could be augmented by cyberlimbs. Only after the average 'natural' armor value is calculated is the worn armor value added. This would then pretty well require all five cyberlimbs to be armored before it would have any effect.

Cyberlimb armor should be treated as "natural" and not worn armor, yeah.

B))
If cyberlimbs have armor enhancement, is it reasonable to presume that this armor value is considered 'internal' and therefore does not count in the encumbrance calculation on p.149 of SR4?

Correct.

I hope that helps

:: Rob Boyle ::
Shadowrun Developer for FanPro LLC
info@shadowrunrpg.com ~ www.shadowrunrpg.com

#####

Take this how you want, I guess. He certainly didn't sound as if he were stating RAW, but rather his interpretation.

STR/2P. As the amount of damage does not change, they did not tab it anywhere. The physical damage is just noted somewhere int the text description of cyberlimbs.

While I hate to disagree with Rob I can easily cite numerous instances on either side of that particular exchange that directly contradict it.

Here and here for example.

Admittedly Frank is no longer on the dev team but he was at the time. In particular that first thread is littered with posts from Synner that never see fit to contradict Frank's stance.

This argument never ceases to amaze me, have you ever tried to build a real PC that exploits cyberlimb armour stacking?

It costs 6.25 Essence for a full replacement and nearly 100,000 . Compare that to the cost of Dermal Plating or Orthoskin or the potential armour value of a full Cyborg body.

The averaging rule clearly doesn't stack up against Orthoskin or Dermal plating, it costs 4 to 5 times as much Essence and up to 10 times as much money for the same effect. Comparing it to an Otomo is even worse and realistically the difference is very small, an Otomo has to carry a life support system and can still mange to mount up to 18 points of Vehicle armour.

The fact remains that SR4 doesn't have any hit location system. If you want to avoid the armour on an otherwise naked target's shins then you take a DP penalty for a called shot. There should never be any circumstance where the limited coverage of a piece of armour reduces it's effectiveness. It's coverage is factored into it's Rating by design.

I've got to weigh in to the stack camp. The 2 capacity for each level of armor is a considerable amount of metal/ceramic/whatever. Armor 4 is basically like having over a half inch of reinforced steel covering every surface of that limb. Trying to compare that to shin guards or even a helmet is a far stretch.

Man, we have been over this so many times....

Cyberlimb armor simply adds its rating, no dividing, nothing.

Anyone who talks about dividing is mixing up SR3 rules.

I can't remember the specific thread, but a dev reinforced this in the past.

Thats exactly how it Works
Cyberlimb Armor is not an Attribute so it doesn't get averaged

Hough !
Medicineman

Which would be a fair argument if all you got out of having five cyberlimbs was extra armor. But you also get... cyberlimbs out of the deal, which means possibly increased stats all around. It also means tons of capacity to put all kinds of fun bonuses in. And of course you are only looking at all or nothing. You couldn't get the armor up to 4 at CG, but it wouldn't be hard (And certainly not expensive) to get it shortly after. It takes 2 essence and 32400 to get two cyberlimbs with maxed armor on them, that gives you 8 bonus points of armor, along with still having 12 capacity on each limb. Then you can throw in getting your stats up to double digits for a bit of extra nuyen, and spending no more essence, which means you now have not only a rating 8 orthoskin, you also have rating 8ish (or however much you want) muscle enhancement, oh, and the rough equivalent of titanium bone lacing.

As for PPP being 'flimsy sports gear' I'm fairly sure the description of it is more along the lines of "The SecureTech PPP (Personal Protection Piecemeal) System consists of padded densiplast sections that the wearer can combine to give additional protection to several body parts." And densiplastic is rated the same as 'bulletproof' glass and security doors, so it isn't exactly 'flimsy'.


Nice self contradiction there. You start by saying that armor doesn't take fractionation into account by how much they cover, then a sentence or so later you say that armor takes into account how much it covers.

May want to do your math again. Armor value is divided by 5. There are six limbs you could theoretically get armor on, so you can go with 'just' torso, both arms, and both legs, and end up with 4/4 armor.

I'm not saying that the divide by 5 rule is great, I'm just saying that a single cyberleg with armor 4 is equal to rating 4 orthoskin for a fraction of the cost and the same amount of essence, and that is before adding in the fact that you then have the other benefits of a cyberlimb to play with. Heck it is even cheaper than a theoretical rating 4 dermal plating which would cost an extra 1 point of essence, and once again has more advantages.


Your right, because 300 nuyen a rating is going to break the bank. Your problem is that you are looking at getting a cyberlimb as a means of getting the armor, instead of the armor being a cheap and handy addition when already having the limb. Sure, if you go get all your limbs chopped off and replaced with cyberlimbs for the sole purpose of the armor they provide, they are fairly expensive. But if you are getting a cyberlimb because of the dozen other advantages to them, and you just happen to go "Hey, why not throw some armor on there?" then yeah, not dividing is absurdly overpowered. But dividing provides a nice little 1 bonus point of armor (Which is more or less equivalent to the penalty you get to orthoskin and such for having cyberlimbs, isn't it?)

Which is a huge penalty.

When you put a cyberlimb on a character you have doomed yourself to a situation where you have to buy every upgrade twice.



get you stats up to double digits? Rating (however much you want muscle replacement)? For a bit of extra nuyen? WOW. I wana play at your table.

First consider that orthoskin, musle toner, muscle augmentation, titanium bonelace, all cost the same wether you have two cyberlegs or not. So If I want cyberlegs and some nifty bio/bodyware I have to pay for that AND I have to pay for two customized cyberlegs for which I have to pay extra just to get them up to par with my meat body. After I've paid alot of nuyen and pretty much filled the capacity of the legs to get them atributes that are somewhere near my augmented meat body I might be able to fit something cool in there, Like a bio monitor or something. And that's only if my meat atributes are low enough that I can get the legs at an atainable availability.

Also If I have titanimum bone lace +3 damage unarmed, and i put cyberlegs on that character I loose half of that bonus because RAW. Because bulky armored obvious metal ceramic mechanical limbs do not give a damage bonus.

Stacking cyberlimb armor is the only, sole, single, thing that balances the bad idea of having to replace your meat counterparts.

I'm here to promote the house rule that each full cyber replacement should lower the essence and nuyen cost of bodyware by 15%

You're working from the presumption that cyberlimbs are desirable to replace your meat limb. That's that penalty of cyberlimbs. The benefit of cyberlimbs comes from what you can do with them that you cannot do with your meat limbs. Embed weapons, smuggling compartments, other cyber upgrades. It provides an avenue to -decrease- your cyber essence cost by embedding other cyberware within the limb. Olfactory Booster 6? 1.2 essence as a piece of headware. Plop it in your cyberarm and you get it for no additional essence cost.

Stacking cyberlimb armor is far from the only, sole, single thing that makes cyberlimbs a good choice.

Disclaimer: I am in no means suggesting that people get olfactory boosters in cyberlegs in order to smell people through olfactory sensors embedded in cyberfeet.

Um, didn't I just say that cyberlimbs are a huge penalty? Oh ya, I did. It's right there at the top of my post.

Of course if that olfactory booster (1.2 essence) works out better in your cyber foot it's probably worth it to pay 30 grand for a cyberleg (1.0 essence) so you can save 0.2 essence.

Come on guys. Capacity and availablity mechanics dictate that in cyberlimbs you can have Atributes or Armor or Toys. Cyberlimbs are ballanced in that way. *if you use the stacking rules the way they're intended* You can have a fairly usefull mix of the three but don't expect better than average stats.

The imballance comes when you consider the fact that you can get the same thing cheaper by skiping the limbs and buying some ware at a higher grade.

I can see that your mind is made up about the need for this 'averaging' house rule but I'll try to cover each of your points anyway.



The point was not that Cyberlimbs aren't good but that the theoretical 20 Armour bogey-man doesn't exist except on the GM's side of the screen. The legs example is a bit disingenuous, all the best mod's are for arms. What's the point of having double digit stat's in your legs? Ever tried squeezing four points of armour and double digit stat's into a cyberarm?



Good point, thanks for raising it. How exactly do you explain toughened skin being more effective than the maximum amount of kevlar, face hardened 2072 alloys and angled ballistic plate that can be supported on a a completely mechanical limb?

What you are saying with this house rule is that a Street Sam' that looks like Iron Man only has 4 points of armour but that the exact same armour on a heavy military exoskeleton is 18/16.



That isn't a contradiction at all but is interesting that you try to ignore the point made by saying so.

You know full well how the SR4 armour system works. Armour value is an abstract figure that represents both armour quality and coverage.

SR4 has always been, by design, hit-location agnostic.

Look at it this way, the materials involved in fitting Armour 4 to a Cyber-torso are, in all probability, almost identical in design, make-up and coverage to an Armour Vest. Except with the house-rule you are determined is necessary those same materials only provide 1 point of Armour.



So if I go the whole hog I get 7/7 because you don't average the skull? Maybe I should just get the skull...




But that's the wrong comparison to make. A single Cyber-leg with max armour is about the same as a quarter of the heaviest military grade armour it is possible to fit on a human sized frame. Which, as they are exactly the same stuff, makes sense.



Again Orthoskin and Armour Plating, not the same thing. One is inherently better than the other.

Assault rifles are inherently better than sling shots. Nuclear bombs are inherently better than Arbalests.

While from a balance perspective you might have a point from a realism, common sense and RAW perspective your proposed house rule is just flat wrong.

If you do get all your limbs chopped off and replaced with massively armour plated futuristic Terminator limbs and your chest and ribs removed and plated with the same futuristic anti-ballistic materials you can bet your ass you're expecting to get a shit load more than 4 points of armour.

So, there's a pretty strong, dare I say virulent, reaction being presented here to the idea of averaging cyberlimb armour. Given that the armour upgrades to cyberlimbs are internal modifications, taking up Capacity slots, what about encumbrance and armour stacking? Do the armour improvements to cyberlimbs contribute to the stacking limitations? If so, why?

No.

The word 'worn' in the armour stacking rules.

Cyberlimb armour isn't 'worn' so it isn't covered by the rules that prevent it stacking.

Wanna see if somebody brings up the formatting/paragraph of that part of the rules again?
Also, all Cyber-Limb-Armor directly stacks. What do you think all the brick posts were about?

Just as a general comment, you may want to be more careful about quoting. I don't think Crizh or anyone else around here would appreciate having my words thrown in their virtual mouths.


You should read the full description. It's interesting that you quote that, but ignore the very next sentence. "Each piece of armor is available in at least three styles: as discreet protection designed to be worn beneath other clothing, as an obvious strapped addition to other visible armor, and as sports equipment."

It doesn't get much more flimsy than that. Especially when compared to the hardened alloys and other such materials used in cyberlimb armor.


That's the best rebuttal you could come up with?

You said the rules account for fractional armor ratings by applying them to their values. They don't, because that assumes the rules use fractional armor ratings. Instead, they give whole values to armor ratings, and those whole ratings account for both cover and quality. No fractions involved.


You have a page reference for that use of the number "5?" The rules say that you take the average of all limbs, right after saying that cyberskulls and cybertorsos are considered limbs. The number "5" never comes up. Two arms + two legs + skull + torso = 6 cyberlimbs, especially when getting shot in the head counts in the "take the average value of all limbs involved in the task (round down)" conditional.


Except they're not related at all. Both Orthoskin and Dermal Plating are little more than toughened skin. Your entire body is covered by it but it still provides only half the benefit of an Armor Vest. Both of those pale in comparison to an entire limb covered in and out with hardened alloys, reinforced joints, and improved structural reinforcement. Not some thin coating spraypainted on the surface, which is all but what it would have to be to work the way you so desperately seem to want it to work.

Afterall, at character creation, you could have a Cybertorso and Cyberskull loaded with the maximum amount of armor (2 points each). And do you know what you get for that? Absolutely nothing. No benefit whatsoever. It takes a minimum of three such limbs before you see so much as one point of actual armor under that house rule.

And yes, if you only look at the cost of the armor, cyberlimb armor is fairly cheap even if it's hard as fuck to get (Availability 20 for Armor 4; that's the same as Heavy Milspec Armor!). Considering that you have to also have cyberlimbs before you can armor them, and that a minimum of one of them has to be alphagrade, and that unless you go full beta you can't get any kind of reflex enhancements.. Especially since you have to apply the same multiplier to the armor, too, since its an enhancement. Yeah, so cheap and convenient to get!

To reiterate, in order to get to this mythical cybermonster you're so terrified of existing, you pretty much have to blow 388,800¥ and 4.35 Essence on the cyberlimbs and armor alone. That leaves you with a whole 1.65 Essence to work with, letting you get Wired Reflexes or Move-By-Wire 1, or maybe 2 if you can get your hands on deltaware. Totally worth 3/3 armor. Yessir. And I see those every day in games, too! Oh, and did I mention that price and availability is only for a baseline cyberlimb, meaning Bod 3/Agi 3/Str 3 for all your stats on all tests? If you want to get those stats up to a functional level for a cybermonster, the price and especially the availability skyrockets. Just to get it to Bod 4/Agi 4/Str 4 is +108,000¥. Nevermind that you had to blow around 46 Capacity to get there, too, which is huge considering that Capacity is the primary perk cyberlimbs provide.

But yeah, you're so right. 388,800+¥ and 4.35 is so much cheaper than Orthoskin or Dermal Sheathing, both of which have their own special options available, too. And it's about as subtle as a guy walking down main street in Heavy Milspec Armor wielding a Panther Assault Cannon. And if you do try going the subtle approach, you really can't. The only synthetic limbs that could support the full Armor 4 are the arms and legs, and that takes up all but a total of 4 Capacity. The torso could only support 2 points and you can't get a synthetic skull, so that's right out.

Of course with my proposed house rule, that monstrosity is avoided, too. Much more succinctly and without being awkward to handle (even you can't get it right and I know you're a smartie; see below) and otherwise completely alien to the armor rules.


I know I'm right when applied to the entire argument rather than a shifting argument that ignores the full impact of the rule when it wants to.


It's one in the same. If you're getting a limb to get the armor, then you literally just got the limb as a means of getting the armor. It's also an option to just have some extra armor stuffed in a limb you already have if you have nothing else you want to put in there... but that's purely a matter of perspective. And you still lose out in all the other GoodThings™ you could have had installed in its place considering how much Capacity is wasted on it.


Nope. By that logic, then you fully expect to gain absolutely no benefit whatsoever from the armor. One cyberlimb with maxed out Armor is 4/4 (or 2/2 by default at creation). Guess what! Either way, that's +0/+0 with this stupid house rule. It rounds down. Hooray for rules that gives you absolutely nothing in return. <golfclap>

Well, I won't bother arguing this much more, as you are doing an even better job of ignoring half of what I say as you say I'm doing.


I said it was divided by 5 because that is what pbangarth posted the dev as having said (I presume they don't expect you to have an armored head) And I don't know where you get this 'it rounds down' stuff from. I never said that, and I don't recall the book having mentioned anything about rounding. Could be wrong about that though. Ah, I see where you're getting that, from the passage about rounding down when you average your attributes. You know, I notice that in that case they say that you average all your attributes, natrual and each limb counting the same, so it is actually cheaper to get a high body by just having a single cyberlimb than having multiple. Perhaps armor could work like this as well, with your 'natural' armor being 0 or equal to your dermal plating/orthoskin value. Thus it is easy to get a few points, but hard to maintain as you cyber yourself up, following the difficulty faced in attributes.

Given that dermal plating refrences having plasteel placed into your skin, I have little doubt that it is in fact slightly more than 'tough skin'. I also don't know where you get the idea that rating 4 cyberlimb armor is half an inch of SuperToughStuff^tm It never states what any given rating of armor in a limb can be compared to, so rating 4 cyberlimb armor could be the equivalent of 'tough skin' as you like to put it.

Yes I did say that. That 6/4 armored vest is made of the same stuff as the 8/6 armored trench coat, but the trench coat provides more armor because it covers more of the body. The fact that they list it as 8/6 instead of 8.121534213/6.49182351234 doesn't mean that the idea of changing armor value based on amount of body coverage it gave didn't apply. So yeah, even though they didn't proved fractional numbers for you (which would be uselss) doesn't mean that fractionalization wasn't used and those numbers rounded. As you yourself keep pointing out, the armor rating accounts for amount covered, which is the same as saying that it was fractionalized from some higher value that it would theoretically be if it covered your entire body.

Because something being sports equipment turns strong metals into thin aluminum sheeting? Just because something can be made sports equipment doesn't mean it is any weaker. It doesn't matter if it is sports equipment or body armor. If it is made of the same stuff, and in the same way, it will offer the same protection, regardless of what its intended use is. You presume that combat armor is made of something different than PPP, which there is no evidence of. Especially as I'd figure that most armored vests and such are made of kevlar, and the material that PPP is made of has the same rating as kevlar. You also once again make an assumption that cyberlimb armor is made form some magical extra strong material, and not the standard bulletproof materials that other armor is made of. If you can find me the passage where it says that cyberlimb armor is made of anything particularly special, I'll start to believe that it should provide more protection than standard armor.


Really? I missed the passage that said that a rating 4 armor on a cyberlimb is made of the same stuff, and provided in the same thickness (Thicker actually), as a heavy military exoskeleton.


How do you get almost 400k? Limbs are 15k each, and rating 4 armor is 1200 each, which gives a whopping cost of 64800 for an extra 16 points of armor. Now admittedly that is 4 points of essence, but you also have a total of 38 capacity to stick other mods in. And that isn't including the fact that for 1500 a point you can jack up your str/agi on your fighting arm to increase your combat potential, and could have sat around with a str/bod/agi of 1, and now suddenly have 2 on your average stat, with getting them up to 3 only costing a few k.


You make that assessment arbitrarily. Nothing except your interpretation of the rules says that cyberlimb armor is any better than dermal plating. If the 'divide' rule is correct, then they are in fact the same thing, if your rule is correct, then they are different.

I also think there was some comment about my mention of being the equivilent of bone lacing and a few other things (Can't find it looking back over the comments for some reason) but I think you misunderstood me. I was saying that because of the 8 points of armor, that is the rough equivalent of having a rating 8 dermal plating. And I was saying that if you got customized cyberlimbs, that was the rough equivalent of having strength enhancement for str/agi improvements, and bone lacing (only thing that is similar to a body increase) in the case of increased body for your cyberlimbs.

Just for fun I'll throw together an armor monster using the cyberlimb armor stacks ruling. The only CG thing I'll break is allow myself to go up to rating 4 on the armor with the assumption that the character got it as soon as possible and to better illustrate my point.

Has been done.
Look up the concept of BRICK the Cyber Monster Armor Tank Troll.
Or my own Idea of Binky.

Rating 4 is the maximum amount of Armour Plating that can be placed on a Cyberlimb.

Is there some reason why the sort of Cerametal lunacy found on Heavy Military Armour can't be placed on a Cyberlimb?

Bearing in mind that the availability of Armour 4 on Cyberlimbs is 20, the same as Heavy Military Military Armour.

Rating 4 is the maximum it is possible to have therefore Rating 4 is the heaviest, toughest, most advanced type of armour that you can conceive of on a cyberlimb.

Rating 4 is 80% of the capacity of normal torsos, 55% the capacity of arms and 40% of legs. That's a hellish amount of the best armour one could conceivably fit to a mechanical limb.

(Which is probably functionally identical to the limbs on an Otomo which can mount 18 points of vehicle armour)

edit - my capacity percentages were BS.

Considering that you're not even referencing the rules, but clinging to an off-hand comment made by a developer (who's comment, as seen earlier in the thread, was basically a "as I recall" which is neither a confirmed rule or even an accurate one, but something he's pulling out of his ass that he kinda recollects)... well, whatever. <shrugs>


Do you even have a clue what anyone is talking about, yourself included?

Look. You're saying that cyberlimb armor is fractional, meaning that you don't actually get the rating you purchase but a 1/6th (and it is 1/6th) fraction of it. No other armor in the entire game works that way. They're all whole values that account for coverage and the quality of that coverage. At no point whatsoever do you use a fraction of those ratings when calculating its value. The sole exception is Form-Fitting Body Armor, and then only for determining its impact on your encumbrance. Which is what my proposed house rule to solve the cyberlimb armor is based upon.

This "IIRC" house rule has zero -- zero -- backing anywhere in the rules. No piece of armor works even remotely like that mechanic does. It's awkward. It's confusing. And most importantly it renders the armor useless except to the hardcore cyberbreaks with multiple limbs and tons of wasted Capacity. Even worse, Rob Boyle didn't even present it as a house rule, but a mistaken recollection of some conversation about the rules!


It's in the same paragraph that you're getting the stuff about it being worse than sports gear. Oh wait. That's right. They're both extrapolations based upon the impact of the rules in question. Duh.


No, the line "discreet protection designed to be worn beneath other clothing" does that.


Because you can't do it as standard ware. Why am I not shocked that you can't grasp the whole picture again? In order to get maxed out cyberlimb armor and still have a character that can do something else, all of those limbs have to be betaware. That's a base of (90,000¥ x 4) and (6.25 x 0.7) Essence for a total of 360,000 and 4.35 Essence, with physical attributes of Body 3/Agility 3/Strength 3. The armor alone is 300¥ and 2 Capacity per point, and it has to undergo the same calculations. Since a cyberskull only has room for 3 points, that's 27,600¥ and 46 Capacity.


Except for the fact that by the rules, it is better than dermal plating. You're absolutely convinced that Boyle's not-even-a-house-rule is the actual rule. It's not, so don't go acting like it is to try and prove a point. It's not my God damned rules. It's the rules.

The best thing is that you're stuck in this fucked up mindset where the conversation is "this is all about my house rule that's super broken, or the standard rule with no other proposed house rule that's not very well balanced either OMG SEE U R DUM 4 USING IT OMG OMG OMG" argument. What I'm doing is correcting your misguided assumption that Boyle's not-rule is the actual rule, while also offering up a house rule that reins it in without rendering it completely useless for the vast majority of characters.

EDIT:

Don't bother. I can already tell you my counterpoint: "I'll just get standard Dermal Plating 3 instead. It's only 1.5 Essence and 15,000¥, leaving all that Essence and nuyen you wasted free to buff the character out the yinrang. Whee, now I have the same armor rating as your cybermonster!"

I meant using the "Armor all stacks" interpretation of the RAW. I didn't mean to call that interpretation of it a 'house rule' but simply what it is, an interpretation. It is also an interpretation, and not a house rule, that the armor should be divided like other stats for a cyberlimb are.



Sure it does, it has perfect president in the way that cyberlimbs divide up their attributes among the limbs and the natural rating of the affected person. You can make a claim that that only applies to attributes and that armor isn't an attribute, but I can just as easily make a claim that it applies to all statistics that cyberlimbs affect. After all, the division of attributes by cyberlimbs -also- doesn't appear anywhere else in the game, so I don't see why armor has to have a similar apparatus elsewhere in the rules.

But the entire thing your fighting here is a 'house rule'. I admit that 'divide by 5' is likely overly harsh, and makes cyberlimb armor not all that useful, and as I said, I'd rather use the same division of stats that the attributes of cyberlimbs use, which makes having a limb or two with high armor useful in providing 2 points of extra armor, and yet also stops having mega armor monsters.

So, here he is, the ultra cyber armor monster: (And remember, since house rules are disliked so much, he ignores the 'cyberlimb armor counts like PPP to increase encumbrance' house rule)


Edit: And this will be my final post on this subject. Use whatever method you like for the cyberarmor. RAW is slightly ambiguous because attributes are averaged, but it never specifically mentions that armor is or isn't. A most direct interpretation of RAW does in fact indicate that the armor should all stack individually like in the above character.

No, it is a house rule. It's no more an 'interpretation' in the way you mean as saying "all stats have a max rating of 1,000,000.' It has no backing anywhere in the rules and, in fact, is contrary to the rules. You know, like this actual rule on the subject: "Armor enhancements installed on cyberlimbs are both Ballistic and Impact, and it is cumulative with all forms of worn armor." The rules are also crystal-clear on what an attribute is, and the rules for determining attribute ratings of cyberlimbs are likewise crystal-clear that it applies to the attributes only. "Attribute" is a very specific game term. Not a catch all phrase for any stat you decide to use in its stead.


See above. "Armor" is not "Attribute." They're not synonyms. They're completely different game terms.


There you go assuming "attribute" means "any statistic I want." Wrong. And, unless a specific rule states otherwise, rules should be consistent. Which means they need to all work the same except in specific cases, of which cyberlimb armor under your preferred house rule does not. The burden of proof is on you to find the rule that states so. And I can save you the time: There isn't any such rule.


I'd rather use a house rule that keeps cyberlimb armor viable without going over the top. Someone with a single cyberlimb at 4 points of post-creation armor deserves the benefits of that armor. My suggested house rule maintains that, yours does not. Mine also gives options. You can either be a naked cybermonster with tons of built-in armor if you have the Body to support it (which significantly cranks up the cost and Capacity requirements of all those limbs, by the way), or you could just have a few points of cyberlimb armor to augment your worn armor. Either way it never gets too terribly crazy, nor does it ever render cyberlimb armor worthless. That's what I call a "win-win" situation in the game balance deparment.


<ahem> "I'll just get standard Dermal Plating 3 instead. It's only 1.5 Essence and 15,000¥, leaving all that BP, Essence, and nuyen you wasted free to buff the character out the yinrang. Whee, now I have the same armor rating as your cybermonster if we apply your house rule!"

I don't know why the Hell you're convinced that I think the base rules are balanced. Feel free to find me saying that anywhere in this thread. I'm arguing that Boyle's not-a-rule is ridiculously broken and overly gimps any player affected by it. I also introduce a house rule that brings cyberlimb armor under control without overly gimping any player affected by it. Yet again you're only looking at one thing and desperately ignoring everything else.


It does specifically mention it by not mentioning it. Armor != Attribute. You're just flat-out wrong, I'm sorry.

Those attributes are Body, Agility, Reaction, Strength, Charisma, Intuition, Logic, Charisma, Initiative, Edge, Essence, Magic and Resonance. You'll note a total lack of the word "armor" anywhere in sight.

OK, so going through SR4A, in the light of the above ... discussion, I am of the current opinion that according to RAW, armor enhancements to cyberlimbs (p. 344) add their value to the total armor rating of the individual. So for example, an armor value of 3 in one cyberarm adds 3 to the total armor of the individual. Also, as with the Armor spell (p.210), that added armor is "cumulative" with worn armor but does not contribute to the encumbrance of worn armor.

Is this how you see RAW saying it? Please, no house rules. Just tell me whether I am reading RAW correctly.

Yes, that is what RAW says.

Yes.

Dr.Funk You're sugar-coating it again. If you have an argument that you feel strongly about I wish you'd just make it and stop beating around the bush. [/sarcasm ROFL Luvya man ]

There is one point in which I have to support Karoline lest we take the argument too far in one direction and skew the perceptions of GM's who haven't seen this discussion the first 5 times...

Cyberlimb armor may function as well as heavy millitary armor but it is not heavy military armor. I say this because there is no concealability modifier for cyberlimb armor. My specific point is: a character can have 4 points of armor in their synthetic cyberlimb and suffer no modifiers to the concealability (such as it is) of the limb.
My rational for this is that the Balistic and especially Impact ratings of the armor applied to limbs don't need to work the way armor over flesh and blood does. The mechanical properties of the limb itself are tough enough that you don't need to disburse the engergy of the attack over a wider area as much as you just need to stop the attack from penetrating. Cyberlimbs don't bruise. (and they should probably add damage boxes to the stun monitor because of that fact.)

There are a couple more bones I'd like to chew here.

If you read the old threads cited by crizh the former dev, FrankTrollman, bitches alot about the effect of putting cyberlimb armor in a cyberhand and gaining the full benefit of that armor. His argument was valid because of these quotes (bold empasis mine)

The use of the word attribute is conspicuous and probably intentional. Thus, even though Rob Boyle the primary writer of SR4 says that armor is averaged we don't do that because it makes the game stupid. However getting two points of armor from a cyberhand also makes the game stupid in which case it is perfectly reasonable and desireable that we apply the word attribute to cyberlimb armor when ruleing that it's effect in a partial limb is not systemic.

On Averageing: everyone needs to get on the same page and accept that the correct method is to add the relevant attributes of all limbs and devide by 5 If you have one limb two limbs five limbs, just add the attributes of two arms two legs and torso (5 limbs) and devide by 5 rounding down. It's really the only way that makes sense as no one would bother to put attribute enhancements in a skull and armor is not an averaged stat. If some people have issues with this because the Strength or Agility stats of a skull might come into question durring game play assume that the relevent muscles are in the neck and call it part of the torso. If the body attribute of the skull seems to be an issue because of called shots understand that the option would to be using the barrier rating of the titanium crainium 16/13.

Also: Leading with the strong cyber arm almost always make the game stupid. I love cyberlimbs enough that I hope to have a few in my lifetime they are my favorite part of the game. But I say that if a GM allows a player to abuse a character with low meat atributes and high cyberlimb atributes he's a wussie. It's nearly imposible to isolate a single limb in almost any action.

Finally: since I'm hijacking what was probably a dead thread 3 hours befor I got home from work I'll take this oppertunity so say. I kinda miss Frank Trollman here. Frank where ever you are I hope you're doing great. Although I'm sure you won't see this because if you were here you'd have piled on by now . Never the quiet type was Frank.

This was hashed out a while ago... it fully stacks. (very bad ruling IMO... but that's what they said).

This resulted in such silliness as Brick the Troll (search fu it)... a troll packing ludicrous amounts of armor.

I'd suggest house ruling it as you see fit, or applying encumbrance limitations on it (all that extra armor is heavy, just because it is built into the limb now doesn't make it any less so). The only real problem I see with it is the ludicrous amounts of armor you can get while 'naked' which then fully stack w/ worn armor.

See, that's the rule I wanted a reference to. I, personally, can't find one. Even the examples are vague as always. The closest I could find is the example, of which you have to reverse engineer to find the value of 5.


In that example, dividing the total Body values results by five results in the 4.0. Dividing by six would result in 3.3. So in that example, they clearly used five. However, the actual rules are contrary to this.


Emphasis mine. It clearly says that a cyberskull and a cybertorso are both full cyberlimbs. And the very next sentence says to use the average of all the limbs involved in the task. Which, for Body and (if we again ignore that it isn't an attribute) Armor, that most certainly would include the head. So which limb are we supposed to be ignoring by using a multiplier of 5?

Keep in mind that when there is a conflict, one should always rely on the written rules rather than an example.

The way I've always figured it, was that you added up your natural score and all your limb scores, then divided by the number of cyberlimbs you have + 1.

So if all you have is a single cyberarm and your regular body, it would be (Natural body + cyberarm body)/ (1 for natural + 1 for one cyberlimb)

So body 5 and regular cyberarm would produce (5 + 3)/(1 + 1) = 4

I could be wrong about this, and of course the example provided just happens to fall under divide by 5 under my interpretation by virtue of having 4 cyberlimbs and the natural body, so it isn't much help in sorting out what the divide number should be. If you think about it though, if you divide by 5 regardless of number of cyberlimbs... well take the above example. His body would then go to (5 + 3)/5 = 1.6 = 1? That obviously doesn't make good sense, and making it (5 + 5 + 5 + 5 + 3)/5 to represent natural body counting 4 times seems a bit out of the rules, which is why I've always taken it as I mentioned above.

Huh? The point of dividing by 5 is that you're dividing by each limb. Arm + Arm + Leg + Leg + Torso?. I guess Skull gets left out of the calculation. Anyway, if your natural Body is 3 and you have a limb of 5, you would use [( 3 x 4 ) + 5 ] / 5 for a total of 3.4, rounded to 3, which makes sense since you're using the majority of your body rather than just the one limb. You'd only use the 5 for a test that relied on that single cyberlimb alone.

I don't see how you consider that out of the rules since the rules say to use the natural OR cyber attributes in the calculations. The only question is where the 5 is coming from when it should be 6, at least for the Body and Armor calculations. 5 makes a lot more sense for things like Agility and Strength since your head doesn't factor into those tests very often.

It's funny how you get inconsistent there: Armor is not an attribute, but Damage codes are not either. There is no way to combine 2 different damage codes: can't average them, can't stack them. What would be the average of Stun and Physical? Electrical effect from a shock hand with a normal limb? The only way to deal with this is to pick one leading weapon (or limb) to inflict the damage. Now you could argue that you could pick 1 arm for the damage and still use the average of the attributes to make the attack roll, but that makes the rules more complicated.

If you are worried about too much imbalance between meat and cyber attributes, try limiting Customization to the unaugmented meat attribute instead of the unaugmented maximum. So if somebody wants high cyber attributes, he has to get high meat too or resort to Enhancements that eat up Capacity.

...

I don't have a problem with full armour on cyber-hands/lower arms. Feet seems a little nonsensical but then with lower capacity comes lower armour, swings and roundabouts. You can only make the system so accurate before you end up playing Rolemaster.

In particular Hands and Lower Arms really ought to give disproportionately large armour values. These are the areas where the vast majority of defensive wounds are seen because these are the areas we instinctively use to defend ourselves from attack.

I too miss Frank. I can't say I always agreed with him but he was relentlessly logical in his argument and that I can't help but admire.

Brick is harly an example of a playable character. IMO it's not a good idea to HR a mechanic because of what might happen when a player is 'Bench Racing' options. Especially in the case of cyberlimbs which are a penalty one takes to satisfy a compelling character concept.


It is not a rule. there is no RAW for this in SR4. I meerly present it as the only rational option. Based on these reasons:
1. In the example there are stats for 4 limbs none of which is a skull. To make the math in the example work you have to devide the total numbers by 5 or add 1 arbitrary limb (Karoline's method). It's more consistent to assume that they're counting Both Meat Limbs. So regardless of which or how many replacements you have you always devide by 5. This would be the mathmaticaly correct way of averageing a data set: X/5 where X=(total set of all limbs). This method will always give the correct answer.

2. a skull is not a limb. Not in any medical dictionary not in any vertibrate species even dragons is a skull a limb. It doesn't matter who tells you that a skull is a limb it is not. The reason that a skull is not a limb is that you can remove a limb and survive. You cannot remove your head and survive. Called shots that target a limb have diferent intent and results than called shots to the head.

3. I hate to parse semantics or whatever, but the book does not say that a skull is a limb. It simply says that a cyberskull is included in the limb catagory. If a skull actually were a limb they wouldn't need to say that the scull is included in that catagory would they? That sentence; "Cyberskulls and –torsos are included in this category, though they are in fact shells rather than full replacements." is there as a simple expedient that allows them to simplify the number of tables and headings on page 343. That lets us know that we can add enhancemnts to cybertorso's (and even skulls if we feel like it.)

4. "take the average value of all limbs involved in the task" (BBB pp. 343) how often is the cyber skull involved in the task? Almost exactly never. How often are less than 'your whole body' involved in any of the available actions listed in the rules? Almost never.

5. the fact that threads with the subject of "why can't I get a cybergun and spurs installed in my cyberskull" are always allot shorter than this one point to the genral acceptance that skulls are not limbs.

That's my reasoning for the devide by 5 standard. I'll back it up with Rob Boyle's statement from the previous post.


That is infact what the rules are. So they are allready that complicated. You always declair which weapon you are attacking with. Then you make an attack roll using your Agility attribute. If your attack is a mellee attack you use a different attribute, Strength, to determine the amount of damage. That's not my inconsistency, and really it's not actually inconsistent or all that complicated.


True. But then you have to consider that armor is used for both melee and ranged defence and that Block or Parry are not viable ranged defence options so you can only apply the armor rating sometimes and now you're back to playing Rolemaster.

My feeling is that there should be limits to the arbitraryness (Hey a new word! ) of the system especially with the technology part of the game and a +2 armor bonus from the back of one hand is a little to arbitrary for me.

Apparently Frank left us to post on other boards. That SLUT!
[edit] OOPS! LOL I just quoted faconer as saying something from a completly different board that was left in my clipboard. Apparently I too am a SLUT. I wanted to tell you babe I just didn't know how![/edit]

Yes You're reading it correctly

with an affirmative Dance
Medicineman

You don't need to, you pretty much confirmed my suspicion. "Divide by 5" is the norm when calculating active rolls such as most of the ones involving or Agility and Strength, but "divide by 6" should be used for reactive situations like Damage Resistance Tests or the dreadful fractional Armor house rule where the skull most definitely plays a role. Anyone who can't accept that last bit needs to be shot in the head if for no other reason than to prove the point.