How do Cyberlimbs stack?, Armor Attributes, specifically Options

[StealthSigma]

I don't have a problem with full armour on cyber-hands/lower arms. Feet seems a little nonsensical but then with lower capacity comes lower armour, swings and roundabouts. You can only make the system so accurate before you end up playing Rolemaster.

In particular Hands and Lower Arms really ought to give disproportionately large armour values. These are the areas where the vast majority of defensive wounds are seen because these are the areas we instinctively use to defend ourselves from attack.

It is precisely cyber-hands and lower arms that give me pause about the armor being cumulative rather than an average.

This is how I see armor working in Shadowrun. Since there aren't actual hit locations, one must assume that in Shadowrun strikes hit the body in a random scatter. The higher the armor value the less likely you are to hit an unarmored or less armored location.

To pull some BS numbers... armored vests are 6/4, I mentally picture these to cover most of the torso. Now 6/4 is good enough to put most weapons, outside of assault rifles and higher classed weapons (in general), into the stun track without net hits. In reality, because of the % of mass that your torso takes up, this if where you're most likely to be shot. Yes I know, this means that technically for a pistol to wound someone with an armored vest it means they're hitting an arm or a leg....

This is what leads people to interpret armor stacking from cyberlimbs.

When using this interpretation with regard to partial cyberlimbs. I just fail to see how a cyberhand can provide as much of an armor benefit as a lower cyberarm, or a full arm cyberlimb. Likewise I fail to see how a cyberfoot can grant the same amount of armor as a full cyberleg. Granted I can only get 2 armor out of a cyberhand or cyberfoot. This silliness exists regardless of if you average or stack it, but it is -less- silly with the average compared to full value due to the amount. Four full cyberlimbs would get you 16 armor, while the hands and feet get you 8. So replacing what I estimate is about 15% of your limbs with cyber lets you get 50% of the armor that you would have gotten if you did full replacements. If you average you get 1 armor from the hands and feet, and 3 armor from the full replacements. 15% replacement for 33% of the armor.

Instinct guarding, resulting in lower arm and hands taking more hits, only works when you can see the attack coming. It's a reflexive action. You're more likely to use it in melee combat, but if someone takes some pot shots at you with a suppressed or silenced firearm, you aren't going to do this. As such, using the "likelyhood to block with lower arm" as a reason to justify same arm values on partial limbs is essentially grasping at straws. If you can't apply it equally, don't both to apply it.

Now, here's some other reasons I support averaging the armor values.

#1 - Balance. So you built a character that has the max possible armor on cyberparts (post creation). You have 22/22 armor from your cyberlimbs and your sporting heavy military armor with a milspec helmet that gives you an additional 18/16 for a grand total of 40/38. You're basically immune to small arms fire. However if you're this character, that means that as a GM I have to up the challenge, standard guards don't work anymore, they're like flies to you. That means I'm upping the gamut. I'm going to be throwing tanks, rockets, missiles, grenades, and assault cannons at you since there are the only things that will start to have damage values or armor penetration to make them effective, and the NPCs are going to start getting higher skills levels in those various weapons. They're also going to be far more armored as well so that they have time to stand up to you. Fine and dandy, you can take it. The rest of your team may not be so lucky and are more likely to turn into a red mist, and may be utterly ineffective at defeating the enemy.

This is power creep. I absolutely hate it. I loath it. I despise it. I all of that towards it because it forces the GM to up the difficulty for the power creeper, which hurts the rest of the players, or have the GM keep everything the same in concern of the other players, in which case the power creep is over powered and everything is a cake walk. Or the players have to do the same types of bullshit to keep up with the power creep. These are the few situations where I, as a GM, are likely to rule zero you on that. Even if its totally legit to stack each individual cyberlimb armor with no encumbrance factors, I'll still rule zero it because I won't subject my players to power creep. I'll kill it before it can even be a problem.

I saw the exact same thing when I played Rifts. We had a Glitterboy, the rest of use were itty bitty people compared to it. The Glitterboy destroyed everything, and the GM upped the difficulty on everything because of the Glitterboy. It made the rest of us fairly ineffective against what we were fighting. This continued to cascade until such a time that I said fuck it, my weaponry was ineffective, that I just chucked a grenade into the middle of a melee involving my party and the enemy. That was the first time I recall doing damage to my enemies.

#2 - I've seen nothing to suggest to me that 3 armor on a cyber limb is any more potent than Rating 3 Dermal plating or Orthoskin.

[darthmord]

OK, so going through SR4A, in the light of the above ... discussion, I am of the current opinion that according to RAW, armor enhancements to cyberlimbs (p. 344) add their value to the total armor rating of the individual. So for example, an armor value of 3 in one cyberarm adds 3 to the total armor of the individual. Also, as with the Armor spell (p.210), that added armor is "cumulative" with worn armor but does not contribute to the encumbrance of worn armor.

Is this how you see RAW saying it? Please, no house rules. Just tell me whether I am reading RAW correctly.

Yes

[darthmord]

I'd make the house rule that partial limbs only ccount for half when it comes to armor. So if you have a fully armored partial limb, the armor only counts for half.

Why?

It's half a limb. The armor on that partial limb will be less effective than that of a fully armored full limb replacement.

[Medicineman]

I'd make the house rule that partial limbs only ccount for half when it comes to armor. So if you have a fully armored partial limb, the armor only counts for half.

Why?

It's half a limb. The armor on that partial limb will be less effective than that of a fully armored full limb replacement.

IIR( one of the Freelancers) C
Thats exactly what CGL is going to do ,an Erratta that half a Limb gives only Half Armor (round Up)

with only half a Dance
Medicineman

[Godwyn]

I will have to say my armor division probably was a hold-over. However, I am uneasy with each limb adding its entire armor value. I find comparisons with the Securetech PPP system flawed, as the system itself there is poorly built, like much of Arsenal.

There are, unfortunately, good arguments on both sides. From a player perspective, I would love the additional armor. But as a GM, it seems too problematic, armor values already go too high.

[Stahlseele]

IIR( one of the Freelancers) C
Thats exactly what CGL is going to do ,an Erratta that half a Limb gives only Half Armor (round Up)

with only half a Dance
Medicineman

Then i HOPE they are going to make the same ammount of armor which gives LESS ARMOR and probably will give 0,5 Points of Armor too, take up less than 1 point of capacity too . .
If i have to pay the same for half of what i originally got, then it's basically paying double for getting the same thing too. and that won't fly.

[StealthSigma]

Then i HOPE they are going to make the same ammount of armor which gives LESS ARMOR and probably will give 0,5 Points of Armor too, take up less than 1 point of capacity too . .
If i have to pay the same for half of what i originally got, then it's basically paying double for getting the same thing too. and that won't fly.

Er what...?

You want the armor upgrade for partial limbs to give 50% the armor per upgrade and you want it to take up less than 50% of the previous capacity? WTF are you smoking, that makes armor on partial limbs more potent. The only way to possibly balance that is to make the effective cost of that armor more expensive.

In other words, if you reduce armor capacity per rating from 2 to .75 (which is what you seem to be suggesting) that is reducing capacity by 62.5%. You get 50% of the effectiveness in armor at 0.5/0.5 per rating instead of 1/1 per rating. Total cost should be reduced around 37.5%. To account for good rounding, that would be 200 nuyen, instead of 300 nuyen per rating.

[StealthSigma]

WTF is up with all the double posts lately?

[crizh]

Instinct guarding, resulting in lower arm and hands taking more hits, only works when you can see the attack coming. It's a reflexive action. You're more likely to use it in melee combat, but if someone takes some pot shots at you with a suppressed or silenced firearm, you aren't going to do this. As such, using the "likelyhood to block with lower arm" as a reason to justify same arm values on partial limbs is essentially grasping at straws. If you can't apply it equally, don't both to apply it.

Far from grasping at straws it is exactly the sort of abstraction that the SR4 Armour system is based on.

Armour value has two components, effectiveness, the ability of the material to absorb or deflect impulse, and 'coverage', the percentage likelihood that any particular impact will strike the Armour. This second figure is combination of physical coverage and situational and tactical influences. It is a statistical average designed to smooth all of these factors out of the system thus greatly streamlining it.

Now of course you counter, what about a completely surprised target? I am going to aim for somewhere other than his foot. Yes you are.

A normal shot, however, is solely aimed well enough to strike the target. If you want to aim for a particular spot or miss a particular spot then you are calling the shot and suffering a DP penalty based on the abstracted 'Armour' statistic of the target.

As the target is unable to Dodge he probably loses enough dice from his pool for you to come out about even.

He doesn't get the opportunity to throw his arms in front of his face and vital organs (no Dodge) and you are therefore able to aim for his exposed chest and head (Called Shot to Avoid Armour) effectively for free.

This is power creep.

No, it's power imbalance.

Creep is where the addition of more and more sourcebooks over time add options that cause dice pool inflation over older characters or NPC's built with the older rules.

There are any number of ways that a GM can allow power imbalance to occur over time, Possession springs to mind, and just as many ways he ought to have squished such egregious nutjobs.

Seriously, if you've got guys running around in Military Grade Armour you've got bigger problems than cyber-limb armour stacking.

ps

What Stahlseele said but more polite and reasoned.

[Stahlseele]

Er what...?

You want the armor upgrade for partial limbs to give 50% the armor per upgrade and you want it to take up less than 50% of the previous capacity? WTF are you smoking, that makes armor on partial limbs more potent. The only way to possibly balance that is to make the effective cost of that armor more expensive.

In other words, if you reduce armor capacity per rating from 2 to .75 (which is what you seem to be suggesting) that is reducing capacity by 62.5%. You get 50% of the effectiveness in armor at 0.5/0.5 per rating instead of 1/1 per rating. Total cost should be reduced around 37.5%. To account for good rounding, that would be 200 nuyen, instead of 300 nuyen per rating.

so, let me get this straight.
i put one point of armor into my forearm, which is a partial limb.
the one point of armor i put in there takes up 1 point of capacity, but only counts as how much? 0,75? or 0,5 Armor in the grand sheme of things?
Now i take that one point of armor and apply it to the full arm on the other side, which has more capacity to start with. but now the one point of armor takes up one point of capacity AND actually counts as one point of armor too? And we are back into hit Locations. Because the armor WORKS DIFFERENT all of a sudden somehow . . Soo, a Head counts as a complete Limb?
And how much Armor can i put on my Cyber-Ears/Eyes?

[Godwyn]

6 on the ears/eyes if you consider bonuses against electricity from hardening (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[crizh]

so, let me get this straight.
i put one point of armor into my forearm, which is a partial limb.
the one point of armor i put in there takes up 2 points of capacity, but only counts as how much? 0,75? or 0,5 Armor in the grand sheme of things?
Now i take that one point of armor and apply it to the full arm on the other side, which has more capacity to start with. but now the one point of armor takes up two points of capacity AND actually counts as one point of armor too? And we are back into hit Locations. Because the armor WORKS DIFFERENT all of a sudden somehow . . Soo, a Head counts as a complete Limb?
And how much Armor can i put on my Cyber-Ears/Eyes?

Fixed that for you.

Might clear the confusion up slightly.

[crizh]

Can I interject some common-sense here btw.

What needs doing is the same sort of caveat that was placed on Bulk Modification on Augmentation p44. Add the following sentence to the end of the paragraph entitled Cyberlimb Enhancements on SR4A p344.

Hands and feet may only support 1 point of Armour each. Lower Limbs and Skulls may only support 2 points.

[OneTrikPony]

Now, here's some other reasons I support averaging the armor values.

#1 - Balance. So you built a character that has the max possible armor on cyberparts (post creation). You have 22/22 armor from your cyberlimbs and your sporting heavy military armor with a milspec helmet that gives you an additional 18/16 for a grand total of 40/38. You're basically immune to small arms fire. However if you're this character, that means that as a GM I have to up the challenge, standard guards don't work anymore, they're like flies to you. That means I'm upping the gamut. I'm going to be throwing tanks, rockets, missiles, grenades, and assault cannons at you since there are the only things that will start to have damage values or armor penetration to make them effective, and the NPCs are going to start getting higher skills levels in those various weapons. They're also going to be far more armored as well so that they have time to stand up to you. Fine and dandy, you can take it. The rest of your team may not be so lucky and are more likely to turn into a red mist, and may be utterly ineffective at defeating the enemy.

This is power creep.

I'm about to get GRUMPY. Not at StealthSigma or any particular person because this exact argument has been brought up by several. I'm GRUMPY about this type of thinking that causes irrational reactionary panic in GMs and limits my character's role playing options because of the absolute value ofwhat might be posible with a concept even if it's played by RAW.

[GRUMPYMODE]
The problem is NOT cyberlimb armor. The problem is HARDENED millitary armor. Everyone Please turn to page 160.

Good armor will protect a character from serious physical harm. If the modified DV of an attack causing Physical damage does not exceed the AP-modified armor rating, then the attack will cause Stun damage instead.

It does not mater if I have 500000000 points of cyberlimb armor. You can still fuck my shit UP with a pistol. It doesn't matter what I wear under my Full millitary armor and helmet. As soon as I get wearable vehicle armor in the game I am immune to small arms fire. It has Nothing to Do with cyberlimb armor. It's a whole 'nother argument!

This "post creation" scenario of doom is dumb. Unless the GM is a 'Slack Jawed Faggot' (not that there's anything wrong with that.) the GM has full control of what happens post creation in his/her game. If SJF gives any character hardned armor he better be prepared to BRINGIT or suffer the consequences.[/GRUMPY MODE]

Sorry for Hulking our there.

Another couple ponts from the Bruce Banner point of view:
It's fun and good to 'Bench Race' characters. But I can't honestly believe that any player would bring a character sheet like that to a game unless they knew that the GM was amenable to that type of character. The resources necessary to make Brick or Binky (shudder) make a character with really cool looking numbers but the make a character that is unplayable in the typical shadowrun. Everyone here knows this about actual role playing but when these stat discussions start this knowledge gets burried under panic about really high numbers. "average armor stat" people here are picking on a character that has a hard enough time getting off the ground anyway. There is no need to nerf an archetype that is really pretty weak outside of a merc campaign anyway.

If a real GM lets a character get their hands on full millitary armor he does so with full knowledge that that character might 'bring a Tank to a Knife fight'. As soon as a player starts making availability rolls for millitary armor he knows that he's going to eventually have to get out the KE Firewatch team and their Panzer, and their magical support. If the situation has escalated to the point that full military armor comes into game play it's highly likely that someone on the team is going to DIE and that a FPK is not unlikely.

About Partial Cyberlimb Armor:
We allready have Precident that augmentations to partial limbs do not apply systemicaly. I submit that we ought to apply that to armor on partial limbs. Is it a house rule by RAW? Yes. Is it sensible, rational, and suported by precident in other rules? Yes. Does it make the game less stupid? Yes. Yes. Yes. Lets adopt it as a community. A GM may still alow it as a modifier to a Blocking defence against melee attacks if she/he feels inclined to do so.

Jesse Ventura for President!

[StealthSigma]

I'm about to get GRUMPY. Not at StealthSigma or any particular person because this exact argument has been brought up by several. I'm GRUMPY about this type of thinking that causes irrational reactionary panic in GMs and limits my character's role playing options because of the absolute value ofwhat might be posible with a concept even if it's played by RAW.

[GRUMPYMODE]
The problem is NOT cyberlimb armor. The problem is HARDENED millitary armor. Everyone Please turn to page 160.

It does not mater if I have 500000000 points of cyberlimb armor. You can still fuck my shit UP with a pistol. It doesn't matter what I wear under my Full millitary armor and helmet. As soon as I get wearable vehicle armor in the game I am immune to small arms fire. It has Nothing to Do with cyberlimb armor. It's a whole 'nother argument!

This "post creation" scenario of doom is dumb. Unless the GM is a 'Slack Jawed Faggot' (not that there's anything wrong with that.) the GM has full control of what happens post creation in his/her game. If SJF gives any character hardned armor he better be prepared to BRINGIT or suffer the consequences.[/GRUMPY MODE]

You can get 12/12 at creation with availability rules. You can also get that Heavy Milspec using restricted gear. In the grand scheme of things, you're still 30/28.

Yes that does mean its stun damage, but you still get your armor to resist damage. Assuming you have a Body of 9 to wear the milspec with no encumbrance that gives you 39 dice to resist firearm damage, 37 for melee attacks, and 23 dice for electrical damage. So on average, a firearm attack will needs to deal 14 damage, a melee attack would need 13 damage, and you would need 8 electric damage just to deal 1 point of stun damage.

So yes, I can "fuck your shit up" with a pistol. But I'm going to have to be damn lucky and you're going to have to be damn unlucky for it to happen. The shooter can't make a called shot against you to ignore armor, he'll have a dice pool of 0. In reality, the shooter will likely need to use a narrow full auto burst for +9 DV. I'm suspecting, that melee character would also have an exceedingly difficult time achieving 13 damage on his attack.

So even without the high end shit, you still force the GM to ramp up the encounter difficulty to handle your tank ass without having the encounter be a cake walk.

This is neither irrational, nor reactionary. It is me, as a GM, not letting one player forcing the game to be significantly harder for the rest of my players, or forcing my players to alter their characters out of what they want to play. Averaging the armor values means there's less shit I have to say no to. If I don't then your troll cyber tank isn't going to happen, or you just aren't getting armor on your cyberlimbs.

[crizh]

You can get 12/12 at creation with availability rules. You can also get that Heavy Milspec using restricted gear. In the grand scheme of things, you're still 30/28.

Yes that does mean its stun damage, but you still get your armor to resist damage. Assuming you have a Body of 6 to wear the milspec with no encumbrance that gives you 36 dice to resist firearm damage, 34 for melee attacks, and 20 dice for electrical damage. So on average, a firearm attack will needs to deal 14 damage, a melee attack would need 13 damage, and you would need 8 electric damage just to deal 1 point of stun damage.

So yes, I can "fuck your shit up" with a pistol. But I'm going to have to be damn lucky and you're going to have to be damn unlucky for it to happen. The shooter can't make a called shot against you to ignore armor, he'll have a dice pool of 0. In reality, the shooter will likely need to use a narrow full auto burst for +9 DV. I'm suspecting, that melee character would also have an exceedingly difficult time achieving 13 damage on his attack.

So even without the high end shit, you still force the GM to ramp up the encounter difficulty to handle your tank ass without having the encounter be a cake walk.

This is neither irrational, nor reactionary. It is me, as a GM, not letting one player forcing the game to be significantly harder for the rest of my players, or forcing my players to alter their characters out of what they want to play. Averaging the armor values means there's less shit I have to say no to. If I don't then your troll cyber tank isn't going to happen, or you just aren't getting armor on your cyberlimbs.

Fixed your errors.

Edit - You could actually get away with BOD 5 if you could spare the BP's for Restricted Gear twice.

The problem here is the availability 20 Military equipment.

A Vanquisher Heavy Autocannon will make short work of your cyber boogie man at 2400m. Same availability and price.

If I were KE and this twit was wandering around my city making me look bad you better believe I'm going to ventilate his ass with something even heavier than that. An SK Taurus Light Gaus Cannon on a GTA Tower hovering over the Metroplex on overwatch slaved to individual Officers wielding Biometrically locked Laser Designators.

[OneTrikPony]

Really I get that. You're the GM you control the game. I just question your choice to deny cyberlimb armor which is not hardned while you alow hardned millitary armor.

Especially since the player could build his cyberlimb character out of SR4a by RAW. But his Restricted Gear quality he has to pick out of Runners Companion. A whole book which is subject to GM aproval.

I don't have my book with me right now but I'm pretty sure CL armor has an availablity rating of 5/pt. so he's maxed at 10/10 IIRC unless you alow him to take an additional Positive quality that is subject to GM aproval.

I'm not saying that 10/10 armor with a lined coat isn't awesome, I'm saying that it's not game breaking untill you put Hardned armor on top of that.

I'm also saying that by the time a character pays for a troll, 5 limbs (at least one of which must be Alpa), 10 armor, 9 body in all 5 limbs, Customized limbs, Limb Stat enhancements... ect. he's run out of ponts to spend on his character. The character ends up haveing maybe one or two skills that are better than par. So basicaly the character build a characte that can't do anything but soak damage and *might* be able to dish some out. The player build a character that does nothing but combat and now has excluded himself from 80% of the game. If it happens that the player did this because combat is a disproportionate part of the game then why would the GM cry about that. Go play Halo and call it a day.

[StealthSigma]

Fixed your errors.

I'm not sure what errors you're talking about, if you have heavy milspec + milspec helmet, you have 18/16 armor, which requires 9 Body to wear without penalty, not 6 body.

The problem here is the availability 20 Military equipment.

IIRC Restricted gear goes up to 20, not 18. I don't have a copy or Arsenal at hand to check that.

[crizh]

Encumbrance limit for Military Armour is BODx3.

I know Restricted Gear goes up to 20. That was my point.

If you are letting people run around with Military hardware without the Military intervening you only have yourself to blame.

[Stahlseele]

Fixed that for you.

Might clear the confusion up slightly.

ah, thank you.

[Ol' Scratch]

A Vanquisher Heavy Autocannon will make short work of your cyber boogie man at 2400m. Same availability and price.

So will a Force 10 Stunbolt cast with a fetish by a mage with Magic 5 (Drain: 2P). Hot Potato would be incredibly fun to watch, too.

Oh right, this is Shadowrun. Where physical damage isn't the only thing you have to worry about. Oopsie!

Also, why does everyone here seem to go with either "omg, cyberlimb armor HAS to be fractionalized or else it's broked, there is no other way to rein it in, OMG OMG OMG!" Why adhere to just one overly broken, overly restrictive house rule to fix the problem when other options exist? Seriously. That asinine house rule is wretched from a game mechanics and game balance point of view. When it ruins an item for everyone except the unrealistic concept characters that no sane GM would allow in their game anyway... what's the damn point in using it? Without using Restricted Gear, it takes three fully armored limbs at character creation to get just one point of armor using it. That's goofy as hell.

[Mongoose]

#1 - Balance. So you built a character that has the max possible armor on cyberparts (post creation). You have 22/22 armor from your cyberlimbs and your sporting heavy military armor with a milspec helmet that gives you an additional 18/16 for a grand total of 40/38. You're basically immune to small arms fire. <SNIP>

This is power creep. I absolutely hate it. I loath it. I despise it.

That's not much of a powercreep. If the dude is running around in full heavy military armor, then people SHOULD be using things other than small arms fire. Like, say, magic, which he's still vulnerable to. Or a net gun.
There's other ways to be immune to small arms fire, too. A grotesquely high reaction / dodge / gymnastics ability works well, is less conspicous, and offers other benefits to boot. A starting riggers drones can be immune to small weapons fire and can operate in the same settings as the chrome wall above, and lets not discount how easily a mage can blow off most all-mundane security forces. So is there really even any creep?

[Traul]

That is infact what the rules are. So they are allready that complicated. You always declair which weapon you are attacking with. Then you make an attack roll using your Agility attribute. If your attack is a mellee attack you use a different attribute, Strength, to determine the amount of damage. That's not my inconsistency, and really it's not actually inconsistent or all that complicated.

You are forgetting one thing here: per RAW you take the attribute of your cyberlimb when leading the attack with it. What you are trying to say is that you can never lead an attack with one limb. That is your house rule.

[Falconer]

Funkenstein:

Because it's too much armor for too little cost. 2 capacity on a limb of a capacity 20 isn't a lot. For 1point of armor which fully stacks. Lets ignore the full body... even with only a torso & two arms, that's 6 points out of chargen which is trivial to upgrade soon after play starts (look at the cost on cyberarmor.. it's laughably low).

Lets put this in perspective... for the low low cost of $2400!!! After chargen, we can get rating 4 armor installed on 2 cyberarms eating up less than half their capacity. No legality issues or anything. Said character now has 8/8 armor naked. If we now add 2 legs as well... that's 16 armor out the gate.

That more than doubles the armor provided by an 8/6 armor jacket for a pretty low price.

Divide by 5 is too much, but full 1/1 is too generous. If it was me, I'd only have the armor add 1 point of ballistic or impact, not both.


Quite frankly... if you need to pull an anti-tank weapon, to dent the guy, you got a problem. And it's more than just the damage soak remember. Also remember, there's a lot of points to buy up willpower if your agility comes from your cyberlimb ratings. It's only about 30000 (6BP) for a maxed out cyberlimb, w/ a few natural max stats... compare that to the BP cost of actually buying those attributes.


While I agree Brick isn't all that playable as a character, it does serve as an interesting example. As even if he doesn't go that far and only has say half or 3/4 of the armor, it's still a problem as anything which can hurt him will splatter others in the party. (if his spell resistance is high and his mundane resistance... see the point).

[OneTrikPony]

You are forgetting one thing here: per RAW you take the attribute of your cyberlimb when leading the attack with it. What you are trying to say is that you can never lead an attack with one limb. That is your house rule.

Dude I just said that. I'm not forgeting anything. Are you forgetting to read posts you respond to or are you trying to make another point?

I understad what you're trying to say; in a melee attack (which is comprised of several maneuvers combined into one complex action BTW) if one part of your body has a damage rating of (STR)+0 S and one part of your body has a damage rating of (STR)+3 P, you cannot average (+0 S) and (+3 P). We are on the same page.

You can and usually should average (STR) unless your player has some really good tactical roleplay that describes how in a melee he manages to fight with only one arm and none of the rest of his body. The quirks of initiative make it seem like melee combat is a process of trading blows like a John Wayne movie, ("Chon Wang? That's a terrible name for a cowboy"), this is not the case. All actions, a players attack, the opponents defence, the players defence and the oponents attack, have simultaneity. It's a GM's job to portrey this simultaneity and a players job to explore the consequences.

To restate: You always choose your weapon for any attack. It doesn't matter if you're leading the attack with a particular arm or not. If my character has spurs in his hand I declare an attack with cyber spurs. Does this mean that during the combat turn he makes a single swipe at the opponent? No, He's ducking blocking maneuvering for position jabbing, stabing and punching. When I declare the attack with cyber spurs I'm simply telling the GM that if my Agility roll is successfull the attack that happens to land will use the damage code for the spurs.

Although Leading an attack is not an action per se, it should probably be handled similar to a charge attack. ie; If I abuse that rule by continuously leading the attack I would fully expect the GM to give the defender a bonus to defence because he's obviously fighting a One Trick Pony.

However: my primary concern with the Leading the Attack option has nothing to do with Damage. I hate the extremely Munchy tactic of the AGI 9 single cyber arm winning every attack roll. I'm not saying that it should never be an option but realisticly there are very few activities that can be acomplished while isolating on arm. The book says that actions that requre the coordination of several limbs should use the averaged Attribute or the value of the weaker limb. The example used is Running. It's hard to make an argument that running requires more coordination than your ShotoKungJiuMagate attack. Obviously the high cyberlimb attribute should not be used for attacks with two handed weapons; Axes, Assault rifles, ect.

Remember I am PRO cyberlimb. But beside that bit of wish fullfilment I also Role Play because I really like to explore a scenario. For me that's more than emoting and talking in a funny voice while I take advantage of every rule I can turn to my advantage.