Are Spirits Immune to Toxins? Options

[Murrdox]

This might seem a really STUPID question, but I can't really find an answer to it.

Last night my players ran into an Earth spirit which manifested attempting to kick their collective asses. While we were rolling initiative I panicked internally.

The players had a Squirt Gun loaded with Narcoject that they'd just used to incapacitate a Rigger. What happens if the players try to use the Squirt Gun on the Spirit?

I quickly skimmed through the rules, and I couldn't find any immunities in the Spirit's stat which state that it's immune to toxins. I also couldn't find anything in the Toxins area which said that spirits are immune to them.

Is there any information on this? Common sense tells you "It's a frakking SPIRIT man! It doesn't have skin or a circulatory system as we understand it! Of course Toxins don't work on it!"

Luckily it didn't come into play, my players loaded their guns with armor piercing ammunition and managed to take it out. I'm still curious though. Where in the rules does it say this?

[Karoline]

I seem to recall spirits being naturally immune to toxins, pathogens, diseases, age, and other similar affects (With the notable exception of toxic type spirits).

Let me see if I can find anything specific about that.

[Pendaric]

I always took this to be part of the immunity to normal weapons power.. ?

[Muspellsheimr]

Immunity to Normal Weapons does not work. In other words, Toxin Resistance Tests are not Damage Resistance Tests, & thus armor of any form does not apply (unless specifically noted otherwise).

A Materialized spirit does not gain Immunity to Pathogens / Toxins by virtue of being a spirit, so unless listed otherwise, they do not possess said immunity. Off the top of my head, there are no spirits that possess such an immunity, although Toxic spirits should; similar note - Fire spirits are not immune to Fire (although in this case, IINW does apply, but is halved as normal vs. elemental effects).

[Ol' Scratch]

By the rules, no, they're not immune. But any GM who adheres to that oversight (along with allowing Drugs to work as soon as they hit simply because they don't have a Toxin stat write-up, and similar other retardedness) should be belted upside the head with a Nerf bat.

[nezumi]

1) I'm pretty sure that in SR3, spirits are immune to toxins, but I don't have my books immediately available, so I can't say for sure.

2) Spirits have a completely alien physiology to us (i.e. animals with blood and a nervous system and all that). 99% of all toxins shouldn't work simply because of that alone.

[Karoline]

The closest thing I can find is in RC where it is talking about PC free spirits and puts in the lines:

Free spirits may not use cyberware,
bioware, nanoware, transgenics, drugs, or anything else that
requires an organic body.

Presumably being affected by a toxin/disease requires an organic body, and so would fall under this rule. It is a stretch as far as rules go, but then again a spirit is defined as 'having a body made from pure energy' even though it may have a body that -looks- like flesh or scales or whatever. Last time I checked, toxins have no real affect on pure energy (Neither do bullets, but there are a few things regarding that), so it stands to reason that spirits should be quite unaffected by toxins, even though there is no particular rule you can point to in the book that says that. (It should also be noted that there is no rule in the book that says that stone cannot be affected by toxins, but I think it is generally accepted that it is not)

Perhaps there is a comment under toxins about the subject having to be 'living' or 'organic' or something like that, categories into which spirits don't technically fall. (Well, living is debatable, but organic isn't)

[Karoline]

I suppose another route you could go if you're looking for hard rules, you could go for the fact that no vector can possibly affect spirits.

Contact requires contact with skin, which spirits do not have.

Ingestion requires it to be eaten, which spirits don't do

Inhalation requires it to be inhaled, which spirits don't do.

And Injectin requires it to enter a target's bloodstream, which spirits don't have.

It should be noted that spirits -can- eat if they want to, but I'm fairly sure they still wouldn't be affected by any toxins.

[BRodda]

This might seem a really STUPID question, but I can't really find an answer to it.

Last night my players ran into an Earth spirit which manifested attempting to kick their collective asses. While we were rolling initiative I panicked internally.

The players had a Squirt Gun loaded with Narcoject that they'd just used to incapacitate a Rigger. What happens if the players try to use the Squirt Gun on the Spirit?

I quickly skimmed through the rules, and I couldn't find any immunities in the Spirit's stat which state that it's immune to toxins. I also couldn't find anything in the Toxins area which said that spirits are immune to them.

Is there any information on this? Common sense tells you "It's a frakking SPIRIT man! It doesn't have skin or a circulatory system as we understand it! Of course Toxins don't work on it!"

Luckily it didn't come into play, my players loaded their guns with armor piercing ammunition and managed to take it out. I'm still curious though. Where in the rules does it say this?

If you REALLY want to get rules lawyery about it it would work out this way:

Spirit materializes. Materialization grants Immunity to Normal Weapons. As stated in the rules it gets double it's magic rating against all non-magical attacks (as "armour" is in quotes we can assume that is intended to stand for anything that reduces damage). As the rules stand they are only vulnerable to the contact and injection Vectors (don't eat or breath). So that would mean the spirit gets Body + 2*(Magic) vs Power of the toxin. So as the rules stand if you shot the spirit with narcojet (Power10) and assuming it was a force 4 earth spirit (Body 8+2*4= 16dice of resistance) I'd say the chances of affecting it would be slim, but possible.

Much better ways to deal with it than just causing stun damage though and almost no chance of knocking it out in one dose.

[Karoline]

If you REALLY want to get rules lawyery about it it would work out this way:

Spirit materializes. Materialization grants Immunity to Normal Weapons. As stated in the rules it gets double it's magic rating against all non-magical attacks (as "armour" is in quotes we can assume that is intended to stand for anything that reduces damage). As the rules stand they are only vulnerable to the contact and injection Vectors (don't eat or breath). So that would mean the spirit gets Body + 2*(Magic) vs Power of the toxin. So as the rules stand if you shot the spirit with narcojet (Power10) and assuming it was a force 4 earth spirit (Body 8+2*4= 16dice of resistance) I'd say the chances of affecting it would be slim, but possible.

Much better ways to deal with it than just causing stun damage though and almost no chance of knocking it out in one dose.

First off, no, they aren't vulnerable to either contact or injection, because they lack skin and blood.

And second, 16 dice against a power 10 attack isn't all that much. You can reasonably expect to roll about 5 hits on 16 dice, which is a far cry from being immune to toxins.

Edit: You also left out

A critter with Immunity has an enhanced resistance to a
certain type of attack or affl iction.

Given that spirits have immunity to normal weapons, they get enhanced resistance to... normal (non-magical) weapons. They get no benefits against magical weapons, toxins, diseases, poisons, or anything of the like. I'd have to say that explanation of the way to deal with it is far more of a stretch.

I still think it falls under a common sense check. What are spirits made of? Pure energy. Are toxins designed to work on beings of pure energy or beings made of flesh and blood? Beings made of flesh and blood. Do toxins have any way to affect pure energy? No. Thus toxins really aren't going to do you any good against spirits.

[BRodda]

Spirit materializes. Materialization grants Immunity to Normal Weapons. As stated in the rules it gets double it's magic rating against all non-magical attacks (as "armour" is in quotes we can assume that is intended to stand for anything that reduces damage).

If you want to get picky there are toxins that would do a real number on spirits as they are MAGICAL in nature and ItNW would not give any protections against them.

From the looks of things they would do a real number on them and I might need to use them against my next group has a conjuring crazy mage.

[Karoline]

If you want to get picky there are toxins that would do a real number on spirits as they are MAGICAL in nature and ItNW would not give any protections against them.

From the looks of things they would do a real number on them and I might need to use them against my next group has a conjuring crazy mage.

Like I said above, spirits are immune to toxins by virtue of the fact that no vector can affect them. They lack skin, blood, inhalation, and ingestion which are required for contact, injection, whatever and whatever (I wonder how many PCs actually use ingestion vector toxins).

Tasers or SnS are your best option for dealing with spirits. Cutting that armor in half is great for getting past the immunity, and filling their stun track disrupts them, so doesn't matter that it is S damage instead of P. I mean it makes a certain amount of sense that one of the most effective things against a being of pure energy is a big charge of energy.

[BRodda]

First off, no, they aren't vulnerable to either contact or injection, because they lack skin and blood.

And second, 16 dice against a power 10 attack isn't all that much. You can reasonably expect to roll about 5 hits on 16 dice, which is a far cry from being immune to toxins.

So that means that they are immune to a Naga's Venom Power? It has an injection vector. How about some critter with noxious breath? That has the inhalation vector. Where does the line get drawn?

Given that spirits have immunity to normal weapons, they get enhanced resistance to... normal (non-magical) weapons. They get no benefits against magical weapons, toxins, diseases, poisons, or anything of the like. I'd have to say that explanation of the way to deal with it is far more of a stretch.

I still think it falls under a common sense check. What are spirits made of? Pure energy. Are toxins designed to work on beings of pure energy or beings made of flesh and blood? Beings made of flesh and blood. Do toxins have any way to affect pure energy? No. Thus toxins really aren't going to do you any good against spirits.

That is using fluff to override a rule. I would have no problem with it except players can summon them and spirits are abused enough without making them more powerful.
Acid should not be able to affect spirits either by your logic as acid causes damage by pulling the water out of the cells in skin. If they were immune to Toxins the would have the immune to toxins power.

[Doc Byte]

I remember dimly something about Ares, insecticides, Bugs and Chicago...

[toturi]

I still think it falls under a common sense check. What are spirits made of? Pure energy. Are toxins designed to work on beings of pure energy or beings made of flesh and blood? Beings made of flesh and blood. Do toxins have any way to affect pure energy? No. Thus toxins really aren't going to do you any good against spirits.

That is not true, toxins are made to work on beings that do not have immunity to them. Do spirits have any immunity to toxins? No. Thus toxins should work against spirits, unless there is another rule stopping it.

You could go with the vector approach but I'd look very closely at the RAW wording of the vectors. As the GM, you could house rule it such that they do not but you'd have to remember that spirits do not necessarily have to be composed of ectoplasm.

[BRodda]

I remember dimly something about Ares, insecticides, Bugs and Chicago...

I think you just hit the jackpot...

Pg 84 in Arsenal.

KE IV: Contact poison created to combat insect spirits.

[pbangarth]

Also, see Street Magic, pages 152-153, under Insect Spirit Types. Weaknesses include Allergy(Insecticides, Severe). Seems like some toxins work on some spirits.

[JoelHalpern]

It appears to me that the interaction of toxins and spirits is being left up to the GM.
Clearly, some toxins affect some spirits.
Equally clearly, some spirits are not affected by most toxins (otherwise, it would not have been necessasry to develop a special toxin for the Insect Spirits, even though they are not listed as having a toxin immunity.)

Given that tricks like DMSO rely on chemical interactions between the carrier and the skin, and then rely on blood flow for circulation, it does appear that they typically should not work on the energy surface / content of a spirit. But, given that they are materialized, some chemicals may well be able to affect them. (Among other things, I would think that free spirits could take/develop Allergies.)

Yours,
Joel

[toturi]

It appears to me that the interaction of toxins and spirits is being left up to the GM.
Clearly, some toxins affect some spirits.
Equally clearly, some spirits are not affected by most toxins (otherwise, it would not have been necessasry to develop a special toxin for the Insect Spirits, even though they are not listed as having a toxin immunity.)

Given that tricks like DMSO rely on chemical interactions between the carrier and the skin, and then rely on blood flow for circulation, it does appear that they typically should not work on the energy surface / content of a spirit. But, given that they are materialized, some chemicals may well be able to affect them. (Among other things, I would think that free spirits could take/develop Allergies.)

Yours,
Joel

I think the special toxin for Insects Spirits is to capitalise on the fact that they not only do not have toxin immunity, they have a vulnerability to insecticides. Normal toxins should work, but insecticide toxins work better.

[BRodda]

I think the special toxin for Insects Spirits is to capitalise on the fact that they not only do not have toxin immunity, they have a vulnerability to insecticides. Normal toxins should work, but insecticide toxins work better.

If you look at KE IV the HUGE thing is that it doesn't affect humans (other than ingestion). So not only does it kill bug spirits, its safe to use with Firewatch teams in the area. And from the pricing info it is cheap as hell.

I wonder what other types of toxins the fine folks are Ares are working on to specifically wipe out other types of spirits. Sounds like a run to me.

[pbangarth]

The use of insecticides on Insect Spirits does seem to have a bit of 'fluff factor' though. Most insecticides are in powder form as this allows them to clog the breathing tubes of insects. But spirits don't breath.

However, Insect Spirits use Inhabitation, which can result in hybrid or flesh forms, either of which may, I guess, breath in some way.

[Da9iel]

I think the special toxin for Insects Spirits is to capitalise on the fact that they not only do not have toxin immunity, they have a vulnerability to insecticides. Normal toxins should work, but insecticide toxins work better.

Seconded.

[Ol' Scratch]

As Karoline pointed out, there's also an ambiguous rule out there that supports and implies that spirits are totally immune to them. That's found in the Free Spirits creation rules in Runner's Companion: "Free spirits may not use cyberware, bioware, nanoware, transgenics, drugs, or anything else that requires an organic body."

What's more, that's a general rule that can apply to practically any spirit since any spirit can be a free spirit. Bug spirits have a specific rule that states they have a vulnerability to insecticides. That's unique to bug spirits. In no way does that even imply that it's a general characteristic of all spirits anymore than a Shedim's Evanescence weakness means that all spirits fade away if they stay materialized for too long.

Of course, we're also throwing simple logic out the window in this argument. But for anyone who doesn't, duh, of course spirits are immune to toxins by default. Spirits are not biological. A typical spirit is about as vulnerable to biological attacks as a toaster or a rock is. You might have an argument when talking about things like acids or other specific compounds, but that argument can be countered by saying they're effectively elemental attacks that simply get around the Immunity to Normal Weapons by virtue of being an elemental attack. That's why fire elementals are vulnerable to water. By the logic individuals like Toturi are trying to claim, you could just walk up to a water elemental, dump a bucket of water on his head, and call it a day due to the fact that fire elementals are vulnerable to it.

[toturi]

As Karoline pointed out, there's also an ambiguous rule out there that supports and implies that spirits are totally immune to them. That's found in the Free Spirits creation rules in Runner's Companion: "Free spirits may not use cyberware, bioware, nanoware, transgenics, drugs, or anything else that requires an organic body."

What's more, that's a general rule that can apply to practically any spirit since any spirit can be a free spirit. Bug spirits have a specific rule that states they have a vulnerability to insecticides. That's unique to bug spirits. In no way does that even imply that it's a general characteristic of all spirits anymore than a Shedim's Evanescence weakness means that all spirits fade away if they stay materialized for too long.

Of course, we're also throwing simple logic out the window in this argument. But for anyone who doesn't, duh, of course spirits are immune to toxins by default. Spirits are not biological. A typical spirit is about as vulnerable to biological attacks as a toaster or a rock is. You might have an argument when talking about things like acids or other specific compounds, but that argument can be countered by saying they're effectively elemental attacks that simply get around the Immunity to Normal Weapons by virtue of being an elemental attack. That's why fire elementals are vulnerable to water. By the logic individuals like Toturi are trying to claim, you could just walk up to a water elemental, dump a bucket of water on his head, and call it a day due to the fact that fire elementals are vulnerable to it.

What we are doing is not throwing logic out of the window. We are not making assumptions that the rules are not. But for anyone not making such assumptions, duh, then of course, spirits are not immune to toxins by default. It is simple and logical, instead of making assumptions based on real life logic, free your mind of real life constraints and do not assume anymore than what the rules tell you. Spirits do not have an explicit Immunity to Toxins.

Furthermore, that quote is for Free Spirits. Although any spirit could become a Free Spirit, not all spirits are Free Spirits. Thus even if Free Spirits cannot use anything requires an organic body, it does not necessarily follow that it is unable to do so when it was not a Free Spirit.

Casting a jet of water on a Fire elemental works better because the fire elemental is vulnerable to it. Similarly that jet of water spell is going to hurt the Water elemental unless the Water elemental is Immune to Water based attacks. Bug spirits are vulnerable to insecticides, they do not have a vulnerability to toxins. While you have a point in that insecticide vulnerability could penetrate the insect spirit's assumed Toxin immunity, it does not detract from the fact that Immunity is assumed.

[Ol' Scratch]

Okay, I'll stick with your asinine non-logic.

There aren't any rules about drones being immune to drugs and toxins. Thus, by default, they are affected by them. No matter how completely idiotic it is. It's TutoriLogic™! Because "for anyone not making such assumptions, duh, then of course [vehicles] are not immune to toxins by default. It is simple and logical, instead of making assumptions based on real life logic, free your mind of real life constraints and do not assume anymore than what the rules tell you."

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/ohplease.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ohplease.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ohplease.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ohplease.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ohplease.gif)

Characters also spontaneously explode for 100P damage anytime they roll more than two 3's on a Perception Test. There is no rule against it, afterall. TutoriLogic™! Any time you roll only 2s and 4s, you also gain Immunity to Normal Weapons, Regeneration, and eighteen other critter powers of your choosing for the next 25 years. There's no rule against it, so free your mind of real life constraints and do not assume otherwise. TutoriLogic™! Dun dun da dun!