This might seem a really STUPID question, but I can't really find an answer to it.

Last night my players ran into an Earth spirit which manifested attempting to kick their collective asses. While we were rolling initiative I panicked internally.

The players had a Squirt Gun loaded with Narcoject that they'd just used to incapacitate a Rigger. What happens if the players try to use the Squirt Gun on the Spirit?

I quickly skimmed through the rules, and I couldn't find any immunities in the Spirit's stat which state that it's immune to toxins. I also couldn't find anything in the Toxins area which said that spirits are immune to them.

Is there any information on this? Common sense tells you "It's a frakking SPIRIT man! It doesn't have skin or a circulatory system as we understand it! Of course Toxins don't work on it!"

Luckily it didn't come into play, my players loaded their guns with armor piercing ammunition and managed to take it out. I'm still curious though. Where in the rules does it say this?

I seem to recall spirits being naturally immune to toxins, pathogens, diseases, age, and other similar affects (With the notable exception of toxic type spirits).

Let me see if I can find anything specific about that.

I always took this to be part of the immunity to normal weapons power.. ?

Immunity to Normal Weapons does not work. In other words, Toxin Resistance Tests are not Damage Resistance Tests, & thus armor of any form does not apply (unless specifically noted otherwise).

A Materialized spirit does not gain Immunity to Pathogens / Toxins by virtue of being a spirit, so unless listed otherwise, they do not possess said immunity. Off the top of my head, there are no spirits that possess such an immunity, although Toxic spirits should; similar note - Fire spirits are not immune to Fire (although in this case, IINW does apply, but is halved as normal vs. elemental effects).

By the rules, no, they're not immune. But any GM who adheres to that oversight (along with allowing Drugs to work as soon as they hit simply because they don't have a Toxin stat write-up, and similar other retardedness) should be belted upside the head with a Nerf bat.

1) I'm pretty sure that in SR3, spirits are immune to toxins, but I don't have my books immediately available, so I can't say for sure.

2) Spirits have a completely alien physiology to us (i.e. animals with blood and a nervous system and all that). 99% of all toxins shouldn't work simply because of that alone.

The closest thing I can find is in RC where it is talking about PC free spirits and puts in the lines:


Presumably being affected by a toxin/disease requires an organic body, and so would fall under this rule. It is a stretch as far as rules go, but then again a spirit is defined as 'having a body made from pure energy' even though it may have a body that -looks- like flesh or scales or whatever. Last time I checked, toxins have no real affect on pure energy (Neither do bullets, but there are a few things regarding that), so it stands to reason that spirits should be quite unaffected by toxins, even though there is no particular rule you can point to in the book that says that. (It should also be noted that there is no rule in the book that says that stone cannot be affected by toxins, but I think it is generally accepted that it is not)

Perhaps there is a comment under toxins about the subject having to be 'living' or 'organic' or something like that, categories into which spirits don't technically fall. (Well, living is debatable, but organic isn't)

I suppose another route you could go if you're looking for hard rules, you could go for the fact that no vector can possibly affect spirits.

Contact requires contact with skin, which spirits do not have.

Ingestion requires it to be eaten, which spirits don't do

Inhalation requires it to be inhaled, which spirits don't do.

And Injectin requires it to enter a target's bloodstream, which spirits don't have.

It should be noted that spirits -can- eat if they want to, but I'm fairly sure they still wouldn't be affected by any toxins.

If you REALLY want to get rules lawyery about it it would work out this way:

Spirit materializes. Materialization grants Immunity to Normal Weapons. As stated in the rules it gets double it's magic rating against all non-magical attacks (as "armour" is in quotes we can assume that is intended to stand for anything that reduces damage). As the rules stand they are only vulnerable to the contact and injection Vectors (don't eat or breath). So that would mean the spirit gets Body + 2*(Magic) vs Power of the toxin. So as the rules stand if you shot the spirit with narcojet (Power10) and assuming it was a force 4 earth spirit (Body 8+2*4= 16dice of resistance) I'd say the chances of affecting it would be slim, but possible.

Much better ways to deal with it than just causing stun damage though and almost no chance of knocking it out in one dose.

First off, no, they aren't vulnerable to either contact or injection, because they lack skin and blood.

And second, 16 dice against a power 10 attack isn't all that much. You can reasonably expect to roll about 5 hits on 16 dice, which is a far cry from being immune to toxins.

Edit: You also left out

Given that spirits have immunity to normal weapons, they get enhanced resistance to... normal (non-magical) weapons. They get no benefits against magical weapons, toxins, diseases, poisons, or anything of the like. I'd have to say that explanation of the way to deal with it is far more of a stretch.

I still think it falls under a common sense check. What are spirits made of? Pure energy. Are toxins designed to work on beings of pure energy or beings made of flesh and blood? Beings made of flesh and blood. Do toxins have any way to affect pure energy? No. Thus toxins really aren't going to do you any good against spirits.

If you want to get picky there are toxins that would do a real number on spirits as they are MAGICAL in nature and ItNW would not give any protections against them.

From the looks of things they would do a real number on them and I might need to use them against my next group has a conjuring crazy mage.

Like I said above, spirits are immune to toxins by virtue of the fact that no vector can affect them. They lack skin, blood, inhalation, and ingestion which are required for contact, injection, whatever and whatever (I wonder how many PCs actually use ingestion vector toxins).

Tasers or SnS are your best option for dealing with spirits. Cutting that armor in half is great for getting past the immunity, and filling their stun track disrupts them, so doesn't matter that it is S damage instead of P. I mean it makes a certain amount of sense that one of the most effective things against a being of pure energy is a big charge of energy.

So that means that they are immune to a Naga's Venom Power? It has an injection vector. How about some critter with noxious breath? That has the inhalation vector. Where does the line get drawn?



That is using fluff to override a rule. I would have no problem with it except players can summon them and spirits are abused enough without making them more powerful.
Acid should not be able to affect spirits either by your logic as acid causes damage by pulling the water out of the cells in skin. If they were immune to Toxins the would have the immune to toxins power.

I remember dimly something about Ares, insecticides, Bugs and Chicago...

That is not true, toxins are made to work on beings that do not have immunity to them. Do spirits have any immunity to toxins? No. Thus toxins should work against spirits, unless there is another rule stopping it.

You could go with the vector approach but I'd look very closely at the RAW wording of the vectors. As the GM, you could house rule it such that they do not but you'd have to remember that spirits do not necessarily have to be composed of ectoplasm.

I think you just hit the jackpot...

Pg 84 in Arsenal.

KE IV: Contact poison created to combat insect spirits.

Also, see Street Magic, pages 152-153, under Insect Spirit Types. Weaknesses include Allergy(Insecticides, Severe). Seems like some toxins work on some spirits.

It appears to me that the interaction of toxins and spirits is being left up to the GM.
Clearly, some toxins affect some spirits.
Equally clearly, some spirits are not affected by most toxins (otherwise, it would not have been necessasry to develop a special toxin for the Insect Spirits, even though they are not listed as having a toxin immunity.)

Given that tricks like DMSO rely on chemical interactions between the carrier and the skin, and then rely on blood flow for circulation, it does appear that they typically should not work on the energy surface / content of a spirit. But, given that they are materialized, some chemicals may well be able to affect them. (Among other things, I would think that free spirits could take/develop Allergies.)

Yours,
Joel

I think the special toxin for Insects Spirits is to capitalise on the fact that they not only do not have toxin immunity, they have a vulnerability to insecticides. Normal toxins should work, but insecticide toxins work better.

If you look at KE IV the HUGE thing is that it doesn't affect humans (other than ingestion). So not only does it kill bug spirits, its safe to use with Firewatch teams in the area. And from the pricing info it is cheap as hell.

I wonder what other types of toxins the fine folks are Ares are working on to specifically wipe out other types of spirits. Sounds like a run to me.

The use of insecticides on Insect Spirits does seem to have a bit of 'fluff factor' though. Most insecticides are in powder form as this allows them to clog the breathing tubes of insects. But spirits don't breath.

However, Insect Spirits use Inhabitation, which can result in hybrid or flesh forms, either of which may, I guess, breath in some way.

Seconded.

As Karoline pointed out, there's also an ambiguous rule out there that supports and implies that spirits are totally immune to them. That's found in the Free Spirits creation rules in Runner's Companion: "Free spirits may not use cyberware, bioware, nanoware, transgenics, drugs, or anything else that requires an organic body."

What's more, that's a general rule that can apply to practically any spirit since any spirit can be a free spirit. Bug spirits have a specific rule that states they have a vulnerability to insecticides. That's unique to bug spirits. In no way does that even imply that it's a general characteristic of all spirits anymore than a Shedim's Evanescence weakness means that all spirits fade away if they stay materialized for too long.

Of course, we're also throwing simple logic out the window in this argument. But for anyone who doesn't, duh, of course spirits are immune to toxins by default. Spirits are not biological. A typical spirit is about as vulnerable to biological attacks as a toaster or a rock is. You might have an argument when talking about things like acids or other specific compounds, but that argument can be countered by saying they're effectively elemental attacks that simply get around the Immunity to Normal Weapons by virtue of being an elemental attack. That's why fire elementals are vulnerable to water. By the logic individuals like Toturi are trying to claim, you could just walk up to a water elemental, dump a bucket of water on his head, and call it a day due to the fact that fire elementals are vulnerable to it.

What we are doing is not throwing logic out of the window. We are not making assumptions that the rules are not. But for anyone not making such assumptions, duh, then of course, spirits are not immune to toxins by default. It is simple and logical, instead of making assumptions based on real life logic, free your mind of real life constraints and do not assume anymore than what the rules tell you. Spirits do not have an explicit Immunity to Toxins.

Furthermore, that quote is for Free Spirits. Although any spirit could become a Free Spirit, not all spirits are Free Spirits. Thus even if Free Spirits cannot use anything requires an organic body, it does not necessarily follow that it is unable to do so when it was not a Free Spirit.

Casting a jet of water on a Fire elemental works better because the fire elemental is vulnerable to it. Similarly that jet of water spell is going to hurt the Water elemental unless the Water elemental is Immune to Water based attacks. Bug spirits are vulnerable to insecticides, they do not have a vulnerability to toxins. While you have a point in that insecticide vulnerability could penetrate the insect spirit's assumed Toxin immunity, it does not detract from the fact that Immunity is assumed.

Okay, I'll stick with your asinine non-logic.

There aren't any rules about drones being immune to drugs and toxins. Thus, by default, they are affected by them. No matter how completely idiotic it is. It's TutoriLogic™! Because "for anyone not making such assumptions, duh, then of course [vehicles] are not immune to toxins by default. It is simple and logical, instead of making assumptions based on real life logic, free your mind of real life constraints and do not assume anymore than what the rules tell you."



Characters also spontaneously explode for 100P damage anytime they roll more than two 3's on a Perception Test. There is no rule against it, afterall. TutoriLogic™! Any time you roll only 2s and 4s, you also gain Immunity to Normal Weapons, Regeneration, and eighteen other critter powers of your choosing for the next 25 years. There's no rule against it, so free your mind of real life constraints and do not assume otherwise. TutoriLogic™! Dun dun da dun!

Ok. So let me make sure that I understand your points:

1) Spirits that are Materialized are not biological and have no biological components.
2) That Materialized spirits Materializes in the element that they represent.
3) That the lack of rules is an oversight of the designers and does not represent an attempt at game balance.

So a few quick questions:

1) Do defoliants or fire cause more damage to a plant spirit even though they do not have a vulnerability to them?
2) Do toxins effect a spirits of beast or man as it would should have a biological component as that is there ? (Water hurts fire elemental after all).
3) What do normal weapons do to cause damage to a materilized spirit? A sniper rifle should not be able to kill most spirits as the (relatively) small hole that is created should not be a bother or in the cases of non-solid spirits (air, water, fire, ect...) even be able to do damage.

Yep.


Nope. They're ectoplasm that resembles real substances on the surface but are about as real as a hologram on Star Trek is.


Yep. Just like the immunity to toxins a drone or vehicle should have but... gasp... doesn't. Because it's common sense.


Fire does because it's an elemental attack. Defoilants don't because unlike Bug Spirits, they're not inhabiting a real body. I'd probably house rule it so that they might have some affect if used on a Possession magician channeling a plant spirit, but that's one of those special cases where having a live GM with half a brain rather than a rules lawyering computer program comes in handy.


See above. Water hurts fire elementals because they have an allergy to it, and hurts any spirit if weaponized because its an elemental attack.


The same reason they hurt vehicles and drones. They're physically destroying the target.

You may want to go read my first post in the thread before you continue, too.

There is no rules for all these things that you claim: "Characters also spontaneously explode for 100P damage anytime they roll more than two 3's on a Perception Test. Any time you roll only 2s and 4s, you also gain Immunity to Normal Weapons, Regeneration, and eighteen other critter powers of your choosing for the next 25 years."

There are rules for you to attack a spirit with weapons, if those weapons have toxins, and if the spirits do not have Immunity to Toxins, then the spirits should be affected by them.

The SR world follows a different set of rules, use those and not your assumed "real" rules.

Love how you ignored the first part that completely makes your point as stupid as it is. Good job as usual. I'll quote it again just so you don't forget.

I'm not arguing that a GM is better than a computer program (mainly because I'm the GM).
I don't see why fire would cause more damage to a plant spirit just because its an elemental attack (Cold and lightning are also an elemental effects and don't think that you would say they would cause more damage to a plant spirit).


So unless a vulnerability is stated than an immunity is assumed (in the case of Materialized spirits only), but elemental effects are not considered to be "normal weapons" per the ItNW power.


So you would have no problem with using rules that treated them as vehicles with hardened Armour for the purposes of combat. (not that I have a problem with that, i just don't think of spirits as solid light projections).



I've read it. I'm just trying to get a feel for how other people are handling this. It is a little bit nebulous. I think it comes down to how the GM portrays spirits (I see them as taking a physical and more biological form). It also has to do with how much abuse they have had to deal with from players on spirits. (I have had HORRIBLY abusive shamans as players.)

Random spirit:

ARG! THAT NARCOJET! IT KNOCKS ME OUT! D: D: D:

Same random spirit becomes a free spirit due to whatever

WOO! I'M IMMUNE TO NARCOJET!

What just happened?

They don't cause more damage, they just ignore Immunity to Normal Weapons. So yes, fire attacks will hurt a plant spirit. But no more than a cold, lightning, weapon focus, manabolt, or any other attack with the same damage code would.


They do use the same basic rules. If you can't overcome their Immunity to Normal Weapons (Hardened Armor), then the attack does no damage to the spirit (vehicle). They're also not "solid light projections." They're simulations of matter that the spirit creates out of some weird ectoplasmic substance when they materialize. They could be a towering column of flame, a puddle of water, a vaguely humanoid lump of rock, a ghostly metahuman, or a completely realistic looking dog with an oversized maw. But they're all the same thing in reality. They just look like that. The towering column of flame won't burn you unless it's using its Energy Aura power or an Innate Flamethrower spell, for instance. And they could do the same thing if they instead just looked like a normal human.

Actually I do agree that toxins should work on drones unless there is an SR4 rule (or set of statements) that states they do not that you have not quoted or have slipped my mind. There's nothing idiotic about it and I do not know how you would feel that way unless you allow your feelings that things should function as they do in real life get in the way. Indeed, feel your mind.

That only comes into play if you choose to accept that "anything else that requires an organic body" includes toxins.

OK. So in your world materialized spirits are some form of energy matrix or ectoplasmic pattern made of mana. The addition or subtraction of energy to the matrix/pattern causes the disruption of the pattern. This disruption can be in the form of energy addition from fire or electricity, reduction do to cold or just scrambling it with kinetic energy (normal weapons). Some patterns are more "vulnerable" to disruption from some types of energy that others. Once the pattern is disrupted enough the spirit is forced from this plan of existence.

Sorry, I've lost interest in this topic. I'm too busy plotting all the ways I'm going to blow up cars by shooting them with capsule rounds loaded with Ringu nerve gas. Pew pew! AV rounds and antimaterial rifles are for suckas.

Good. I am glad you have finally gotten your head out of the sand called Real Life ™.

Just out of curiosity... How would Ringu work on cars, fluff-wise?


On the general topic, I find Karoline's argument about vectors most compelling. If vectors don't work, drugs won't work.

Logically... as most diseases can't jump from animals to humans, and drugs designed for one have different (if any) effects on the other, it stands to reason that things as radically different as spirits would not be susceptible to (human) drugs in the same way as humans.

...and I don't think we should throw reason out the window 'because it's a game'. If I'd do that, I would have a room full of angry players because the game 'doesn't make sense' and they feel cheated.

Name one toxin that does not in some way interfere with biological processes.

Narcojet (I believe) is a form of narcotic, which is Greek for "the process of benumbing or the benumbed state," or in other words, it effects the central nervous system (spirits don't have one).
Cannabis (and similar drugs) are hallucinogens, which provide a chemical stimulus to the brain. Any "getting high" or "downer" drugs fall into this category, they work by either adding or restricting a chemical in the brain. Spirits don't have this.

From the list in Arsenal:

NpPain is a pain inhibitor which works on the nerves (restricting the electro-chemical signals).
Arsenic causes organ failure.
Atropine is a muscle relaxant.
Breathtaker causes your diaphragm to seize up.
Cyanide blocks the oxygen receptors in the blood.
Ringu is a nerve gas.
Warp is a hallucinogen (see above)
White star is formed from two chemicals, phosgene (which inhibits oxygen exchange in the lungs) and chlorine (reacts with water in the mucosa of the lungs to form hydrochloric acid).
Ymir coagulates the blood.

Toxins I skipped from Arsenel:
Ekyelebenle Venom (magical)
Naga Venom
Nova Scorpion Venom (magical)

How snake venom works is based on species, (as the are a combination of many different proteins and enzymes), but include muscle relaxants, cholinesterase inhibitor (muscle control), hyaluronidase (similar effect to DMSO), amino acids for digestion, and .... ATPase (disrupts the ATP energy cycle of cells). I don't know how a magically active version would alter these effects, nor how it might influence a spirit.

Scorpion venom I don't have enough information on.

Naga venom is likely another awakened snake venom variation. It is, however, listed as a nerotoxin. "Naga venom is a highly developed neuro-toxic saliva. Th ere is no known antivenom."

Of all of the toxins listed in Arsenal (and I couldn't find any in Core) a mere one or two might work on spirits.

Don't bother. By ToturiLogic™, all those things prove only one thing: That vehicles have nerves, skins, brains, muscles, and blood. Because vehicles aren't immune to toxins, and toxins affect those things. ToturiLogic™ for the win! Free your mind! Fuck reality!

AH HAHAHAHA!
I must use K-10 on my van next time I get a chance.

But which of those toxins named require an organic body to work?
I never stated that vehicles have nerves, skins, brains, muscles and blood. If vehicles aren't immune to toxins, then they can be attacked via toxins. It doesn't matter whether they have nerves, skins, brains, muscles or blood or not.

Sorry, you can't use your idiotic logic one way and then ignore it another way. Toxins work by attacking biological systems. Vehicles aren't immune to toxins. Thus, in order for your internal consistency to work, all vehicles clearly have all the biological systems toxins affect. That includes skin, blood, brains, muscles and nerves. Just like spirits apparently do!

Or what's the matter? You can't free your mind of the real world, man? But you're so enlightened! I find that impossible to believe! Don't shatter my reality. Reality don't matter here. It's just the rules, man. The rules...

All of them, actually. You could get clorine gas to attack anything that is water based and is vulnerable to hydrocloric acid, but...most of those are pretty much targeted at specific biological systems.



Dr. Funkenstein has this one covered.

I'm not a strict rule follower like some people around here and I think I'd deal differently in each case. If the spirit looks like something organic, it'll probably be affected by toxins. If it doesn't it probably won't.

Here's a more detailed description of what happens when a spirit materializes. And yes, they're specifically speaking of free spirits here. It's obvious, however, that they're talking about materialization in general so don't go ranting off on that tangent.

Runner's Companion, p.91: "A free spirit, in its materialized form, is made of energy in the form of a set of coherent forces. These forces effect the space around it, giving it the illusion of shape, mass, and appearance. The interaction of these forces with the physical world cause light to reflect at various wavelengths, making it possible for cameras, ultrasound, radar, and other physical detection methods to perceive the spirit. A free spirit has the “look and feel” of a physical being, based on the form it took before it became free, but it is not made of the materials that appear to make it up; “skin” will not tan or sunburn, “iron” will not be attracted to magnets. The spirit has no mass, but the forces in its form have all of the effects of a body with mass, according to its Physical attributes. A result of being comprised of energy is that the spirit needs no clothes, food, or shelter to survive, although, in many cases, the spirit can wear clothing, eat food (which it can later expel discreetly), and live in a home, as the social situation warrants. Free spirits may not have technological augmentations."

No. Toxins work as the rules say they do. Now that I have looked closely at the RAW wording of the vector rules, some of those rules specifically mention (via vector) skin (contact), eaten (ingestion), inhalation and bloodstream (injection). Thus I admit that spirits and similarly vehicles do neither nor have any of these and therefore cannot cannot be affected by toxins that use any of these vectors.

I am using my logic consistently. Are toxins (as a class) defined to require biological systems to work per the "organic body argument"? The rules do not say so; if they do, please give me a quote. While specific descriptions of individual toxins specify how they work but as a class, is there a definition that they all must require an organic body?

I do not assume that spirits or vehicles have skin, blood, brains or muscles. As I have stated before:And as Karoline correctly points out, none of the vectors work on spirits (or vehicles).

Certain individual toxins are stated to require biological systems to work. If a specific toxin does not mention that requirement, then I will not say that the toxin requires an organic body to fulfill its function.

Too bad that only applies to toxins.

There's still drugs and compounds (which have neither vectors nor any other toxin stats except in a few rare cases) that work perfectly on vehicles and spirits. YAY! I can still have a car get drunk in Toturi's imaginary land of stupidity! Gonna suck when it gets addicted though. Poor car. I mean, give one Kamikaze and its poor pupils -- which I didn't even know they had -- get dilated. Let alone a sense of well-being that it no longer cares about. Heck, just hit it with a single dose of Slab and bam, it's out of commision for at least an hour! Why be scared of tanks or jet fighters? One shot kills, man.

Golly.

Then you have the whole side effects and mental addiction thing to worry about. Which again, incidently, proves that vehicles are biological and have a mind and of their own. Dump a bunch of doses on a car (or just have one near it since there's no actual rule on how its administered; it could be by proxy or some kind of weird mitosis!) and BAM, that baby's addicted. Get them severely addicted and they start to lose Essence, Mental and Physical Attributes, suffer incontinence or slurred speech, suffer Stun damage even though it can't... <whistles>

The possibilities are endless in ToturiLand!

Arsenal, p83
Dosages for toxins vary considerably from substance to substance,
and prices and descriptions given are for a standard dose
effective against most metahuman physiology.

Toxings, in the Core book make little mention to the intended targets ("that shadowrunners might encounter")

However:

Injection toxins must be injected into the target’s bloodstream.
- Spirits don't have a bloodstream.

I can not make similar rulings for the other methods, so while "contact" says "the target’s skin" not all things effected by toxins have skin (cough, dragons, other reptiles).

Ingestion requires the target to eat it (spirits can "eat" even if they do not digest, from a Real World point of view, its the digestion process that actually does the damage) and inhalation might be possible on a spirit, even though they do not technically breath. Most inhalation toxins are also contact toxins.

Spirits are under Critters and Critters are always played as NPCs. Since the rules for drug and compound usage generally refer to characters, yes, quite possibly such things should work on spirits, unless as I always say, another rule states otherwise. Unless vehicles are refered to as characters, such drugs and compounds should not work.


There you go. As long as the rules state so.