"Metahuman physiology"
You do realize that you now leave out critters (paranormal or not) from that discription.

Yes: the dosages aren't calculated for them. Tranquilizers that put down a human safely are rarely very effective against elephants, after all.

Oh joy.

So now toxins don't work on anything but metahumans. So even though one ambiguous dose is enough to affect a troll as much as a baby, it can't affect anything else. Including both sapient and non-sapient critters. Dogs, cats, shapeshifters, sasquatches, and naga are all apparently immune to toxins. Jinkies!

I love how it's gone from "spirits HAVE to have Immunity to Toxins as a power or else they suffer its effects!" to "NO ONE except metahumans can be affected by them!" XD

I'm immune to chocolate, but my dogs are not.

Hit him with some pepper spray and see how he reacts.

if it is applied to a steak first, he might thank me!

You (generic) and you (specific) aren't the same word.



Actually, you're not. A lethal dose is about 8 pounds.

Remember, those doses in arsenal are meant for metahumans (yeah, a "troll dose" should be bigger than a human dose) and may work on other creatures--such as dogs and Naga. However, some thing don't work on different creatures. For example, if you made pepper punch out of rose hip oil instead, I doubt any metahuman would mind being sprayed with it. Dogs on the other hand would HATE it.

From everything I've read on the subject, the reaction of pepper spray against dogs is not what you'd get against humans. Don't ever use pepper spray against a dog, it is not an effective defense.

You'd be wrong. I know it works first hand.

Well, those are the risks of relying on preferring RAW without common sense sauce.

I wouldn't handle it like that myself - for mammals I'll just assume that creatures that need bigger doses tend to have a higher Body and vice versa for lower doses. For things that don't resemble mammals in metabolism it's trickier - spirits would be right out, but reptiles are probably vulnerable.
Well, my group has two biology students in it, I'll just toss the problem to them if it turns up. And it will. Capturing an escaped critter that may have fled into the ghetto sounds like an interesting run.

If I could eat that much. That much of just about anything would kill me. Alternatively, a smaller dose could be inserted at mach 2. That would kill me, too.

Enough of everything will kill you, and yes, while the dose of chocolate is more than you could eat, that is how much of the trace chemical that is toxic is present (eg. the amount of it in 8 pounds of chocolate is lethal to a human).

My point is that everything is toxic if you ingest enough of it. The chocolate thing was actually just an attempt to insert some levity into an increasingly toxic argument.

But not everything contains a chemical which is toxic.

(I do get your point though: everything will kill you eventually, even life).

Pure water, H2O and nothing else. No toxic chemical. If you drink enough of it, you die. I extrapolate from that to hypothesize that too much of anything can kill you, one way or another. Toxicity, catastrophic expansion or compression... whatever.

You can never have too much moderation

I don't know. Humpty Dumpty sat on the fence too long.

I know, but my point was there is a chemical in chocolate that is toxic (theobromine) and that in order to have a high enough dosage to kill you, you would need to eat 8 pounds of chocolate.

Quote != Edit

Just to stir the pot....

I looked up the immunity power in my copy of SR4 and noticed something interesting - there are only 2 immunities mentioned: age and weapons.

Does this mean that the immunity to toxic/pathogen powers no longer exist?

I provided an example of a spirit with immunity to toxins and pathogens.

As for the vector argument, Skin has multiple definitions. For instance, metal has skin. Which, I suppose, could keep a full cyber-body replacement char from being immune to contact toxins. But "skin" means the outer layer of something, not just the epidermal organ.

But really, the exception to the ruling has to be white star, since a large part of its effect is the formation of HCl, thereby making it acid damage. Say, half power since it's main advantage over typical acid damage is that it targets sensitive organs like eyes and lungs. Not that acid should hurt ectoplasm anyway. Real world physics vs. magic is always crap.

Double up,
Uh Unh.

Not sure if you where aware but I was just being silly... whatever...
But just because the doses would be different does not mean they would be immune. A tranq that can put down a human "can" put down a larger animal if the dose is scaled up to match. We are talking about immunities not dosages. They are not the same.

Yeah, and there's a bunch of critters with "Vulnerability" as a weakness (not surprisingly, they're all secondary handbooks prone to the cut-and-paste mentality). Yet I can't find a single write-up of the Vulnerability weakness in SR4. It was encompassed into Allergies this time around.

But it doesn't form HCl on its own. It forms HCl (which is painful/deadly) because it combines with water found in the lungs, eyes, and nose (and having HCl in those locations is painful/deadly).

It might form a small amount of HCl with ambient water vapor, but the rate and concentration would be extremely low.

I was trying to point out that common sense isn't optional. Determining how toxins dosed for metahumans can affect critters also demands the application of common sense.




...And then we're definitely in the land of Twisting The Meaning Of The Words.

I think there are 3 ways that something can be effectively immune to toxins -
1) An outright Immunity to Toxins (unconditional)
2) Impervious to the vector/s of specific toxins (conditional upon vector)
3) Unable to be affected due to not fitting the description of specific toxins (conditional upon toxin description)

Any of the above should render something functionally immune to toxins.

The question here would be "do spirits take damage from [toxin] (its listed effect) even if they have none of the organs associated with the description [eg vomiting]?"

One of the fluff examples talks about a runner who sold a free spirit a bunch of BTLs and the spirit paid him, thanked him, and proceeded to go through the motions of slotting them. The runner commented on it being quite wierd.