Are Spirits Immune to Toxins? Options

[Karoline]

That is not true, toxins are made to work on beings that do not have immunity to them. Do spirits have any immunity to toxins? No. Thus toxins should work against spirits, unless there is another rule stopping it.

You do realize that stone never mentions anything about being immune to toxins, right? And toxins never makes any mention of only affecting living things. Thus by your logic rocks should be affected by toxins because they are never specifically mentioned as being immune to toxins.

Edit: Wow, way more posts than I was expecting as I caught up and felt the need to comment on this one. Looks like the discussion has gotten far out of hand.

[AKWeaponsSpecial...]

Rule Zero.
However your GM rules it, is how it is. If you're the GM, that's cool, what you say, goes.
Now, could we please try to halt the hostilities before admin has to step in and shut down the thread?

[Ol' Scratch]

Spirits are under Critters and Critters are always played as NPCs. Since the rules for drug and compound usage generally refer to characters, yes, quite possibly such things should work on spirits, unless as I always say, another rule states otherwise. Unless vehicles are refered to as characters, such drugs and compounds should not work.

Psst. Guess what the "C" in "NPC" stands for.

Course, ignoring that, this now means drugs, toxins and compounds have no effect on any NPCs now! Yay!

Edit: Now that I think about it, this exception is awesome for NPCs considering how often the word "character" is used to describe rules. Phew.

[Ol' Scratch]

Rule Zero.
However your GM rules it, is how it is. If you're the GM, that's cool, what you say, goes.
Now, could we please try to halt the hostilities before admin has to step in and shut down the thread?

That doesn't apply when discussing the rules on an open forum.

[toturi]

You do realize that stone never mentions anything about being immune to toxins, right? And toxins never makes any mention of only affecting living things. Thus by your logic rocks should be affected by toxins because they are never specifically mentioned as being immune to toxins.

Edit: Wow, way more posts than I was expecting as I caught up and felt the need to comment on this one. Looks like the discussion has gotten far out of hand.

Rocks should be affected by toxins in general. If specific toxins were to specify that they affect certain biological processes that rocks do not have, then they do not.

Now, could we please try to halt the hostilities before admin has to step in and shut down the thread?

I'm ok with the tone of the thread. I do not think any of the posts have yet to cross the TOS. I am actually glad the old man's got his blood up and has not yet suffered a stroke, though I think I'll give it a try. Just like in the old days. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Ol' Scratch]

You grossly mistake my vehemence at your stupidty as anger or being riled up. If anything, I'm getting a mild chuckle out of it. Though my eyes do hurt a bit due to some excessive rolling at your backpeddling.

[toturi]

Psst. Guess what the "C" in "NPC" stands for.

Course, ignoring that, this now means drugs, toxins and compounds have no effect on any NPCs now! Yay!

yes, quite possibly such things should work on spirits, unless as I always say, another rule states otherwise

Eh? I though I said drugs and such should work on spirits, unless another rule stated otherwise. It is right there in your quote even. The only things I said it shouldn't work on are vehicles because I have yet to come across rules that refer to vehicles as characters.

[AKWeaponsSpecial...]

All right, my apologies....this was just starting to look like some of the , ah, "discussions" I have just about every time one of my players and I encounter one another, and I just wished to keep this informative, instead of it spiraling out of control into a flame war, as I've seen too often on the D&D forums. Y'all have a good one.

[Karoline]

I can not make similar rulings for the other methods, so while "contact" says "the target’s skin" not all things effected by toxins have skin (cough, dragons, other reptiles).

Dragons and reptiles have skin, it is under their scales. Never heard of crocodile skin handbags? Or dragonskin armor? Birds also have skin under their feathers. Insects would be up for grabs though, because they have carapaces, not skin, so they likely wouldn't be affected by contact toxins, which makes sense because carapaces don't allow things to pass through nearly as easily as skin does..

Oh, and going back up to the bug spirit thing for a moment. Note that is says that bug spirits are allergic to insecticides. That means that they have a particularly allergy to it, and thus a weakness that would supersede any immunity they might have. Kind of like how if a vampire is allergic to wood, then wood causes damage to it just by touch, which supersedes the fact that otherwise, touching wood wouldn't hurt it (Note I say touching, not getting stabbed by)

I have to agree with Dr. F overall about toturi's logic. [super sarcasm to the max!]In my next SR game I'm going to go around getting rocks and cars and drones high. I'll get trees addicted to novacoke and start charging them outlandish prices. They'll have to go to the shadows, killing other trees to get the money to afford their fix, it'll be great. I mean the rules never say anything about trees being unable to move, right? Thus there is no way to tell if they can or can't (Since it isn't in the rules and we aren't allowed to use the real world to base anything off of), but since they -can- become addicted to drugs, and they -can- be affected by toxins, it stands to reason that they can move around too. Man, I want to play a Spruce... or maybe a Douglas Fir. I guess I'll have to wait for the "Nature's Fury" source book to come out where it gives the rules for trees as PCs[/SSttM]

[toturi]

You grossly mistake my vehemence at your stupidty as anger or being riled up. If anything, I'm getting a mild chuckle out of it. Though my eyes do hurt a bit due to some excessive rolling at your backpeddling.

I was away from books and my PDFs. And my earlier posts did mention "unless another rule states otherwise" or to that effect. If anything, I would say, "I told you so". You could have save yourself quite a bit of vehemence if you or someone else had simply quoted the rules verbatim.

[Ol' Scratch]

See! Even a totally rational individual like Karoline is slipping into the obnoxious sarcasm department. That says a lot about where this topic has gone.

[toturi]

I have to agree with Dr. F overall about toturi's logic. [super sarcasm to the max!]In my next SR game I'm going to go around getting rocks and cars and drones high. I'll get trees addicted to novacoke and start charging them outlandish prices. They'll have to go to the shadows, killing other trees to get the money to afford their fix, it'll be great. I mean the rules never say anything about trees being unable to move, right? Thus there is no way to tell if they can or can't (Since it isn't in the rules and we aren't allowed to use the real world to base anything off of), but since they -can- become addicted to drugs, and they -can- be affected by toxins, it stands to reason that they can move around too. Man, I want to play a Spruce... or maybe a Douglas Fir. I guess I'll have to wait for the "Nature's Fury" source book to come out where it gives the rules for trees as PCs[/SSttM]

If trees are refered to as NPCs or PCs, sure.

Interesting. Not even the target tree in Ghost Cartels has a published stat. Yet the target tree is not described to have moved around, even when the tree is being destroyed. I was hoping that it could, so that your wanting to play a tree that moves around has some canon basis. Maybe the devs will publish a book like you hope.

See! Even a totally rational individual like Karoline is slipping into the obnoxious sarcasm department. That says a lot about where this topic has gone.

So? (And I have said this before, see my sig) I'm insane, what's your excuse? Well, technically I'm not just insane, but you get the idea.

[nezumi]

You have to understand where Toturi is coming from. He plays the game using the rules EXACTLY as written. He does not extrapolate, he does not assume. If he were playing D&D, where the PHB lists whip damage as d33, he would go and buy a d33 for anyone who wants to use a whip, until that is errataed. He logically KNOWS a whip IRL does not do as much damage as a catapult, but he will refer to the book and say 'the book says d33. That settles it' and move on.

You guys are arguing on the basis that common sense rules all. Apparently that rule isn't written down anywhere. Toturi IS the computer GM.

[pbangarth]

Hey, Dr. Funkenstein, what happened after post #36 to rekindle your interest in this topic?

[Karoline]

Hey, Dr. Funkenstein, what happened after post #36 to rekindle your interest in this topic?

He might have been being sarcastic. Or maybe it was me that drew him back. I'm extra awesome like that (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

I imagine playing under toturi is like some kind of acid trip.

Also, I can't find any refrence that indicates that only characters can use drugs. The section on drugs simply goes on about the affects of drugs, and never once makes any mention of who can or cannot use drugs. Thus, applying rules only logic, anything in the universe can use drugs. Trees, rocks, the air, anti-matter. All of it can use drugs and get high, get addicted, have withdrawal symptoms.

Also, do the game rules mention the existence of gravity anywhere? No? Guess that means it can't exist either. Wheee!!!

All kidding around aside though. Everyone seems to be in agreement that spirits can't be affected by toxins, either by virtue of the fact that devs simply forgot to put that in the book (Because they thought it was so obvious), or by virtue of the fact that no vector can affect a spirit by virtue of them lacking/doing any of the things that a vector targets.

Edit: Oh, and actually, the game is impossible to play without using at least some common sense or real world basic assumptions. Nowhere in the rules does it list anything about glass being see-through and bricks not being see-through. Thus it is only by common sense and real world basings that you can determine that someone can see through glass and can't see through a brick.

I'm also fairly sure that the book fails to mention that inferred energy doesn't travel through glass, and thus purely by the rules, inferred vision can see through glass (Or can't, depending on how you rule the above). SR and any RP game is in fact impossible to play without making real world assumptions, and using only the rules to figure out everything in the world.

[The Monk]

The game assumes that you bring some common sense to the table. Things like toxins not effecting rocks and cars and the existence of gravity is assumed because you can see it for yourself.

Whether it effects things like spirits is up for debate. You can't go and test it for yourself. To me mana is attached to the natural world and to life. Spirits may not have nerves and muscle, but toxins may be anathema to them because its anathema to life in a metaphysical sense.

[Doc Byte]

OK. So in your world materialized spirits are some form of energy matrix or ectoplasmic pattern made of mana. The addition or subtraction of energy to the matrix/pattern causes the disruption of the pattern. This disruption can be in the form of energy addition from fire or electricity, reduction do to cold or just scrambling it with kinetic energy (normal weapons). Some patterns are more "vulnerable" to disruption from some types of energy that others. Once the pattern is disrupted enough the spirit is forced from this plan of existence.

I do like the basic idea of this.

[LaughingGranny]

Furthermore, that quote is for Free Spirits. Although any spirit could become a Free Spirit, not all spirits are Free Spirits. Thus even if Free Spirits cannot use anything requires an organic body, it does not necessarily follow that it is unable to do so when it was not a Free Spirit.

So here your saying i can Wired Reflexes 3 my conjured spirit of man... right? Snap... I'm off to get my spirits cyberd I'll use my last task to tell them to "stand still" while i take it all out better yet all that muscle aug... and sinthacardium...and ohhhhh let me grease some joints to increase my spirits articulation.


*smacks head* even fireball logic dosen't work here.

[Karoline]

I do like the basic idea of this.

Agreed. And it isn't exactly an "In your world" instance, but a "That's what the rules say" instance. Because yes, the rules say that spirits are pure energy, they have no skin, no metal, no cloth, no blood, no anything. They are just energy and forces that make the energy feel like what it looks like.

A spirit is no more made of flesh just because it looks like it has flesh than a painting is made of an entire city just because it looks like an entire city.

[LaughingGranny]

Agreed. And it isn't exactly an "In your world" instance, but a "That's what the rules say" instance. Because yes, the rules say that spirits are pure energy, they have no skin, no metal, no cloth, no blood, no anything. They are just energy and forces that make the energy feel like what it looks like.

A spirit is no more made of flesh just because it looks like it has flesh than a painting is made of an entire city just because it looks like an entire city.

I love your Brain

[Doc Byte]

But what happens if you inject a toxin into this 'matter'? Does it disturb it just becaus it's there? Imagine injecting a colorant into clear water. The colorant doesn't do any damage by itselfe. But now imagine there would be an astral image of the water that doesn't fit the colored water. Would the differnce between physical and astral form be able to cause actual damage?

[nezumi]

Edit: Oh, and actually, the game is impossible to play without using at least some common sense or real world basic assumptions. Nowhere in the rules does it list anything about glass being see-through and bricks not being see-through. Thus it is only by common sense and real world basings that you can determine that someone can see through glass and can't see through a brick.

Actually it does in the Astral Senses section. It mentions glass as being transparent, and at least implies that non-glass things are mostly opaque.

[Saint Sithney]

But what happens if you inject a toxin into this 'matter'? Does it disturb it just becaus it's there? Imagine injecting a colorant into clear water. The colorant doesn't do any damage by itselfe. But now imagine there would be an astral image of the water that doesn't fit the colored water. Would the differnce between physical and astral form be able to cause actual damage?

That's the real question.
CS and capsicum are chemical irritants. By that logic, they have just as much right as acid to disrupt a spirit's energy in the same manner they effect a fleshy person.

Personally I think its too hilarious to not allow hitting a giant pillar of flame with bear mace and watching it curse and roll on the floor as it disappears. If one of my players did that, I would let it happen. If only because the idea of bustin ghosts with pepper spray is piss-myself funny.

[Draco18s]

But what happens if you inject a toxin into this 'matter'? Does it disturb it just becaus it's there? Imagine injecting a colorant into clear water. The colorant doesn't do any damage by itselfe. But now imagine there would be an astral image of the water that doesn't fit the colored water. Would the differnce between physical and astral form be able to cause actual damage?

Probably not. Due to spirits being able to eat and drink (if they want to), I would assume that they would be able to confine the injected material in a pocket for discrete disposal later.

[toturi]

Also, I can't find any refrence that indicates that only characters can use drugs. The section on drugs simply goes on about the affects of drugs, and never once makes any mention of who can or cannot use drugs. Thus, applying rules only logic, anything in the universe can use drugs. Trees, rocks, the air, anti-matter. All of it can use drugs and get high, get addicted, have withdrawal symptoms.

Also, do the game rules mention the existence of gravity anywhere? No? Guess that means it can't exist either. Wheee!!!

Many references in the Drugs and Brainbenders section refer to characters and in one instance people and in another metahuman. Thus applying rules only logic, only characters can use drugs. Does any of the rules in Drugs and Brainbender section reference in specific trees, rocks, the air, anti-matter? No. They do not.

I think the rules do mention the existence of gravity, and I think I'd pull those mentions out of my Arse - p165 Arsenal.