Questions about spirit security Options

[Ghremdal]

Hello, I am new to Shadowrun, and have a few questions regarding spirits (my search-fu failed me). So if you would be so kind to answer.

1) Lets say you have to infiltrate a building quietly. To get to that building you have to go through a open space (such as a cultivated park). Amongst technological security you have to deal with you found out there are bound spirits patrolling in the astral plane with orders to report any intruders there to the mage who bound them. Is there any way of sneaking past those spirits?

2) I'm not sure if Immunity to Normal weapons applies to energy attacks (from a flamethrower or a tazer foe example)? Ie does a spirit get hardened armor against attacks from tazer's or stick and shock rounds?

[Screaming Eagle]

1) Lets say you have to infiltrate a building quietly. To get to that building you have to go through a open space (such as a cultivated park). Amongst technological security you have to deal with you found out there are bound spirits patrolling in the astral plane with orders to report any intruders there to the mage who bound them. Is there any way of sneaking past those spirits?

Sneak past using consealment power of your own spirit? Establish the route they are patroling and avoid them? Pretty much anything else I can think of (banishing, astral combat etc.) will let the summoner know "something" is going on. Please note that this is relativly expencive, not bank breaking, but I tend to only use such for truly secure sites, not a typical office block.

2) I'm not sure if Immunity to Normal weapons applies to energy attacks (from a flamethrower or a tazer foe example)? Ie does a spirit get hardened armor against attacks from tazer's or stick and shock rounds?

Immunity to normal weapons applies to such attacks - but the hardened armour is still halved for the energy based attacks, Fire, electricity etc. (at least this is the general agreement, not everyone agrees but here we are)

[darthmord]

Hello, I am new to Shadowrun, and have a few questions regarding spirits (my search-fu failed me). So if you would be so kind to answer.

1) Lets say you have to infiltrate a building quietly. To get to that building you have to go through a open space (such as a cultivated park). Amongst technological security you have to deal with you found out there are bound spirits patrolling in the astral plane with orders to report any intruders there to the mage who bound them. Is there any way of sneaking past those spirits?

Be very good at sneaking. Get lots of bonuses for sneaking / infiltration. Have your own spirit use Concealment on you.

2) I'm not sure if Immunity to Normal weapons applies to energy attacks (from a flamethrower or a tazer foe example)? Ie does a spirit get hardened armor against attacks from tazer's or stick and shock rounds?

ItNW only applies to non-elemental weapons and to ranged weapons that have no connections to their wielder (bow & arrow for instance, thrown dagger, etc). If you have an elemental effect like SnS or a flamethrower, the spirit just gets normal armor against it rather than the armor from ItNW.

[Dakka Dakka]

ItNW only applies to non-elemental weapons and to ranged weapons that have no connections to their wielder (bow & arrow for instance, thrown dagger, etc). If you have an elemental effect like SnS or a flamethrower, the spirit just gets normal armor against it rather than the armor from ItNW.

You contradict yourself there, spirits do not have normal armor, only immunity to normal weapons. Contact between the wielder and the weapon/ammunition is irrelevant. As long as it is not magic, the spirit gets ItNW. This "armor" (2*MAG) however is modified by AP just like any other armor. So APDS and Monowhips are good ideas against spirits.

[Ghremdal]

Thanks for the replies.

Didn't know about using concealment from your own spirit helps vs astral detection. Thanks that helps a lot.

Be very good at sneaking. Get lots of bonuses for sneaking / infiltration. Have your own spirit use Concealment on you.

Does this really help against a spirit on the astral plane, one that just uses astral perception to scan a area for strange auras? If so great, my problems are solved.

[Ascalaphus]

Or you could organize a distraction, to lure the spirits away from you. The best distraction makes people lazy the rest of the night; something harmless but noisy, and not nasty enough to create a full alert.

[Mercer]

Concealment works on the same principle as Infilitration. That is, if you're hiding behind a tree (using Infiltration), creatures can't see you whether they are using physical sight or astral perception (or anyway, they have to roll their Perception vs your Infiltration). Concealment is kind of like taking the tree with you.

I rule it that Concealment is really only useful in conjunction with Infiltration anyway. Concealment takes away dice from perception tests to locate the subjects; but seeing someone standing out in the open (not trying to Infiltrate) doesn't require a test. From the Astral Perception description in the BBB: "Like physical perception, a character using astral perception should not need to make a test to see things that are immediately obvious (and since astral forms are bright and vibrant this means that most astral forms are easily noticed). An actual test should only be called for when an astral being is specifically trying to hide, or when a character is trying to astrally observein detail; in both these situations, an Assensing Test is made." (Bold mine.)

Odds are Concealment won't take away all the dice from the observers (unless your spirits are seriously under-matched), but they will hinder them enough that as long as you don't ratscrew your Infiltration rolls, that you can have good odds on the sneaking.

[Ol' Scratch]

I've pointed that out a few times recently. You'd be surprised (and very, very sad) by how many people around here seem to firmly believe none of that is the case. And, more importantly, that they don't think it should either.

[Screaming Eagle]

Does this really help against a spirit on the astral plane, one that just uses astral perception to scan a area for strange auras? If so great, my problems are solved.

It can work, I generally apply hefty bonues to the spirits unless the Infiltrator is aware of the spirits precence and has SOME way to have a rough idea where they are. I have in the past gone so far as to encourage one PC to take a specialty in his Infiltration (Astral) - basically knowing what casts astral shadows thich enough to conceal you, what is bright enough on the astral to hide you, stuff like that.

Pro tips from the top of my skull:
living camofauge made from the local plants, I typically allow fresh cut plants to count as "alive" for some time - under some situations you might stick out like a sore thumb in the physical world though.
Water, especially sea water, is FULL of living things, whats one more large glow amongst tens of millions of little ones?

Anyone got more? (No i'm siting these as RAW examples, just things that came to mind that make sence)

[Mongoose]

One option we used to use for for bypassing spirits was a control thoughts spell- its a mana spell, after all. Hit the spuirit with that, and it won't be reporting anything or will even report misinformation, very handy as a distraction. I can't remeber if they maybe wrote something into the rules to prevent that- if not, it seems like an awfully easy (and subtle) way to grab control of a mages spirits, although you do have the whole nuisance of sustaining a spell instead of actually gaining services from the spirit.

[Neraph]

Hello, I am new to Shadowrun, and have a few questions regarding spirits (my search-fu failed me). So if you would be so kind to answer.

1) Lets say you have to infiltrate a building quietly. To get to that building you have to go through a open space (such as a cultivated park). Amongst technological security you have to deal with you found out there are bound spirits patrolling in the astral plane with orders to report any intruders there to the mage who bound them. Is there any way of sneaking past those spirits?

2) I'm not sure if Immunity to Normal weapons applies to energy attacks (from a flamethrower or a tazer foe example)? Ie does a spirit get hardened armor against attacks from tazer's or stick and shock rounds?

1) Even though it is a spirit, it still is an opposed Test to see you. A F6 spirit only has 12 dice to see you, although it would be negating the penalty from your Ruthenium Polymers.

2) IItNW does provide protection against elemental effects, but the elemental effects do 1/2 armor, so they overcome it much easier.

[Mercer]

@Doc Funk: I can see the other side of the Concealment argument as well, if you take the DP penalty to Perception tests to mean INT+Per, and not Astral Perception which is INT+Assensing. This is a nuance that we didn't have to worry about in previous editions, since even though Assensing was a skill, Astral Perception and Perception were both Perception tests (and there was no skill called "perception").

[Ol' Scratch]

I can understand coming to that conclusion by a strict reading the rules. It's the whole "and they think it should be that way" part that bewilders me. Especially when they're also the ones complaining about how there's no way to be stealthy on the astral.