How to run., A runner's guide to running. Options

[Karoline]

So, I've noticed the board full of people who seem to think that by having multiple IPs you can sprint at 50 KPH without breaking a sweat. I figured I'd throw up this thread to clear up some of the misconceptions about running with multiple IPs.

The main misconception has to do with sprinting. It is very important to notice that the book specifies that sprint modifies your running rate, which is a m/turn figure. This means that when sprinting, you have to divide the bonus movement by your number of IPs, just like you do for the basic running rate.

It is then important to note that a particular movement only lasts until your next action (IP), so during your next action, if you want to continue at that sprinting speed, you have to spend another free action running, and another simple action doing the sprint.

This means that it doesn't matter how many IPs you have, you still move the same distance in a given combat turn.

So, this is the way a combat turn goes from the view of movement:

1. Reset your movement to null. This is no movement and all movement rates return to their basic numbers.
2. Declare movement type: None, walking, running.
3. If running, you may use a simple action to increase your running rate by 2m per hit on a running + strength test.
4. Divide your movement rate (Walking, running, or modified running) by the number of IPs you have.
5. You may move up to the distance found in step 4.
6. You have the movement type picked in step 2 until your next action (IP) at which point you return to step 1.

This means that while someone with 4 IPs makes 4 sprint tests, each sprint test is only 1/4th as effective as someone with 1 IP. Following the rules prevents the silliness of having someone with an extra IP or two outstripping a world class runner without even trying.

Hope this helps clarify the rules for everyone, just got tired of seeing posts about how someone with extra IPs instantly became a universe class sprinter that could keep up with vehicles.

[Nightfalke]

How much running could a runner run if a runner could run while running a run?

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

Thanks for the clarification!

[Adarael]

So, I've noticed the board full of people who seem to think that by having multiple IPs you can sprint at 50 KPH without breaking a sweat. I figured I'd throw up this thread to clear up some of the misconceptions about running with multiple IPs.

Yeah, people have been guilty of that for several editions now, myself included. I think part of the blame - at least with 1st and 2nd edition - was the opening fiction "Plus ça Change." In the story, Nameless - the street sam who is relating the story - notes that he kicks up his wired reflexes, but only a little bit, because "truckin' down the street as 70 kph is gonna get some attention", implying that nervewires DID increase your running rate.

Now, my memory for the running rules in 1st and 2nd edition is highly spotty at best, so it may have been viable, but I know it was divided as you say for 3rd edition. So that may be where some of the wackiness comes in.

[Ol' Scratch]

Step 4 in the list is where the problem is, but the problem is the exact opposite of the concern being addressed. A character with an IP of 2 can move faster than a character with 4 IPs; twice as fast, in fact, if you assume they are otherwise identical. At least for purposes of that Combat Turn. Let's say they're both dwarves just to keep the math simple. The first guy gets to run 10 meters as part of each of his action phases, whereas the other guy only gets to run 5 meters. If they were sprinting to a gun that's, say, 15 meters away in some bizarre contest, with the winner getting to shoot the loser, the guy with 2 IPs gets to win each and every time. There's no contest at all.

There's a very reasonable solution to the whole thing, and that's just opening the movement rules to abstraction like most everything else in the game. Simply allow characters to move their movement rate however they like during a single Combat Turn. Do it all in one pass or spread it out evenly across them all. The net effect is the same, but no longer are the characters with less reflexive augmentation faster than those who are so augmented.

It wasn't a problem in earlier editions when initiative was handled in the opposite direction (with the slower characters having to wait several passes before they get their turn). It's just that style of initiative was really, really lame for that very reason. If you weren't augmented out the ass, you had the pleasure of just sitting there twiddling your thumbs. And considering how deadly combat can be, you might not even get to do anything during a fight.

They just kind of glossed over the fact that the movement rules lead to a weird paradox when they changed to the new system.

[Nightfalke]

Step 4 in the list is where the problem is, but the problem is the exact opposite of the concern being addressed. A character with an IP of 2 can move faster than a character with 4 IPs; twice as fast, in fact, if you assume they are otherwise identical. At least for purposes of that Combat Turn. Let's say they're both dwarves just to keep the math simple. The first guy gets to run 10 meters as part of each of his action phases, whereas the other guy only gets to run 5 meters. If they were sprinting to a gun that's, say, 15 meters away in some bizarre contest, with the winner getting to shoot the loser, the guy with 2 IPs gets to win each and every time. There's no contest at all.

Assuming no sprinting (because randomness of dice etc), they both reach the line at the same time. They both have the same movement rate, which is measured in meters per turn. Since the turn is the same amount of time no matter how many IPs people have, the guy with 2 IPs does not reach the finish line before the guy with 4. The guy with 4 IPs just has the option to do more things in the 3 seconds becase his reflexes are better, but they both move the same rate in the same amount of time.

Think of it this way: The two dwarves are racing cars, but the cars are both stuck at 60 mph. One has 2 IPs and the other has 4. They both will reach the finish line at the same time because they are both going the same speed (all other things being equal), but the guy with the 4 IPs has more chances to shoot the 2 IP dwarf's car because of his wired reflexes/etc/etc.

[Karoline]

I agree that there is a problem with 1IP man being able to get 25m in the same time it take 4IP man to get 6.25m and then 1IP man just stands around waiting for the other 2.25 seconds of the combat turn.

Personally I think the rules should be adjusted such that movement is treated as though everyone has 4IP, and 1IP man gets to move 6.25m in the first IP, then another, then another, then another. He can use his actual actions at any point during that movement timeline that he wants. This means that if he is charging down someone, he has to get shot at for just as many IPs as someone with a higher number of IPs.

But my post was for the point of explaining how the rules have it work out. You're very correct that in the time scale of IPs low IP is good for moving fast, but in the time scale of turns, all IPs move at the same speed.

[Octopiii]

Step 4 in the list is where the problem is, but the problem is the exact opposite of the concern being addressed. A character with an IP of 2 can move faster than a character with 4 IPs; twice as fast, in fact, if you assume they are otherwise identical. At least for purposes of that Combat Turn. Let's say they're both dwarves just to keep the math simple. The first guy gets to run 10 meters as part of each of his action phases, whereas the other guy only gets to run 5 meters. If they were sprinting to a gun that's, say, 15 meters away in some bizarre contest, with the winner getting to shoot the loser, the guy with 2 IPs gets to win each and every time. There's no contest at all.

Your example is wrong. Movement rate is divided by number of passes per turn, not number of passes per an individual runner's turn. So IP 2 guy is still going 5m an IP, because IP 4 guy has upped the number of passes to 4 that turn. It does create the odd situation of IP 2 guy having two passes where he can do nothing but move 5m, but on the upside, it does mitigate a bit the boredom less augmented players get when waiting for the street sam/mage/vr hacker to finish their turn, as they still have something to do.

[Octopiii]

I agree that there is a problem with 1IP man being able to get 25m in the same time it take 4IP man to get 6.25m and then 1IP man just stands around waiting for the other 2.25 seconds of the combat turn.

Personally I think the rules should be adjusted such that movement is treated as though everyone has 4IP, and 1IP man gets to move 6.25m in the first IP, then another, then another, then another. He can use his actual actions at any point during that movement timeline that he wants. This means that if he is charging down someone, he has to get shot at for just as many IPs as someone with a higher number of IPs.

But my post was for the point of explaining how the rules have it work out. You're very correct that in the time scale of IPs low IP is good for moving fast, but in the time scale of turns, all IPs move at the same speed.

Seriously, that's not how it works. "If a character mixed his modes of movement in a Combat Turn and it becomes important to know exactly how far a character moved in a particular pass, simply divide his Movement Rate by the number of passes in that turn." SR4A p.149.

It's actually a terribly phrased rule, because it's using past tense for some reason, but the essential rule is in there.

[Karoline]

Seriously, that's not how it works. "If a character mixed his modes of movement in a Combat Turn and it becomes important to know exactly how far a character moved in a particular pass, simply divide his Movement Rate by the number of passes in that turn." SR4A p.149.

It's actually a terribly phrased rule, because it's using past tense for some reason, but the essential rule is in there.

Ah, so it works how I'd like it to, just phrased poorly. I always figured that rule meant how many passes that person had for that turn.

Edit: Though it should be noted that someone with only 1 IP can't mix his modes of movement, so in theory wouldn't fall under this rule at all.

[Octopiii]

Here, this is clearer: "A character continues to move in the last mode he chose during passes in which he does not have an action. This means a character with only one action, for example, who chooses to walk or run in the first Initiative Pass will be walking or running through subsequent Initiative Passes." SR4a, p.148.

Probably should have used that quote first. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Karoline]

Here, this is clearer: "A character continues to move in the last mode he chose during passes in which he does not have an action. This means a character with only one action, for example, who chooses to walk or run in the first Initiative Pass will be walking or running through subsequent Initiative Passes." SR4a, p.148.

Probably should have used that quote first. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Right, that is for the sake of getting the 'target is running' adjustment on being shot at. Neither of those really say that someone with only 1 IP moves 6.25m per everyone else's IP. Otherwise there would be problems with someone with 1 IP charging a target that is 25m away and getting a melee attack. By the rules the attack happens right away, but what you say says that he should still be 18.75m away from the target by the time his IP is over.

[Dakka Dakka]

I totally agree with you, Dr. Funkenstein.

Also I'm not sure your right in your interpretation, Karoline, since the book says that you only divide the running rate by the character's IPs, if the character mixes his movement modes. There are only two, walking and running. Sprinting is not a third movement mode but just something you can do while running.
So if someone runs all of his IPs and sprints in one or more of them the whole 2m/hit are added to the Running rate of the character. As such by RAW no matter how many IPs you have and how often you sprint, the Running rate is 25/turn +Hits*2m/turn for humans orks and elves. Trolls and dwarves have a different base rate but the calculation is the same.

I just found out that long distance chases are impossible, since the jogging rate of all characters unless they are very tall or short or have augmentations. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/silly.gif) Or am I missing something?

@Karoline: Can you show me where it says that if a character has only one IP, he travels only 1/5 of his movement rate and the rest in the four remaining possibly imaginary IPs? It would make sens but this screws up the whole initiative rules if said 1IP character wants to do something at the end of his movement.

[Karoline]

I totally agree with you, Dr. Funkenstein.

Also I'm not sure your right in your interpretation, Karoline, since the book says that you only divide the running rate by the character's IPs, if the character mixes his movement modes. There are only two, walking and running. Sprinting is not a third movement mode but just something you can do while running.
So if someone runs all of his IPs and sprints in one or more of them the whole 2m/hit are added to the Running rate of the character. As such by RAW no matter how many IPs you have and how often you sprint, the Running rate is 25/turn +Hits*2m/turn for humans orks and elves. Trolls and dwarves have a different base rate but the calculation is the same.

I just found out that long distance chases are impossible, since the jogging rate of all characters unless they are very tall or short or have augmentations. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/silly.gif) Or am I missing something?

You're missing that some people would score more or less hits on a running test, thus allowing for someone to catch up or lose someone. That and fatigue, eventually someone is going to get tired.

As for the splitting movement, you have it right when you write down figures. Running rate is 25m/turn + hits*2m/turn. The trouble is that multiple sprint actions don't stack, because each IP the running rate gets dropped back down to 25m/turn.

And sprinting counts as mixing your movement modes, because in one pass you are sprinting, and in the others you aren't. If you sprint for all 4 IPs, then you aren't changing it, but you only get to adjust your base movement rate once, not four times.

This example clears up the fact that you would divide it regardless of if you actually change your movement or not.

Twitch the elf samurai is chasing down an opponent.
He’s an elf, so his Running Rate is 25 meters per
Combat Turn. Th is particular Combat Turn is three
Initiative Passes long, so he moves (25 ÷ 3) 8 meters
per pass. If Twitch stopped running for one pass to help
up somebody his opponent knocked over, then he would
only be moving 16 meters that Combat Turn.

Notice how it starts out by figuring out that he moves 8m per pass, then states that if for some reason he stopped for a pass, but ran for the other two, he would only move 16m. In other words it runs on the asumption that you always split up the running rate, even if you run for all three because it might "Become important to know how far a character moves in a particular pass."

and it becomes important to know exactly how
far the character moved in a particular pass

I think it should be or personally, because it could be important to know how far a person moves in a particular pass even if they don't change movement modes. For example, it is important to know how far a person moves in an IP if they are running from a grenade, but by the strict interpretation of the rules that you are using (By requiring a change in movement modes) it is impossible to tell, because you can only know that they move 25m a turn.

[Mercer]

I think it would be interesting to run all combats with 4 IP (or the maximum number of IPs for the parties involved), with the lower IP characters choosing which IP they will act on. Haven't thought about how this would look in practice at all though.

[Karoline]

I think it would be interesting to run all combats with 4 IP (or the maximum number of IPs for the parties involved), with the lower IP characters choosing which IP they will act on. Haven't thought about how this would look in practice at all though.

Yeah. I kinda feel it should work on a pyramid sort of structure. Something like this:

CODE

4IP 4IP 4IP 4IP
  3IP 3IP 3IP
    2IP 2IP
      1IP

So someone with 4IP will always go first, then someone with 3IP will go, then 4IP go a second time at the same time as 2IP goes for the first time, then second 3IP and only 1IP go, then third 4IP and second 2IP, then third 3IP and finally last 4IP.

This basically stops the oddity of the 4IP being several times quicker than the 1IP, and yet the 1IP can somehow react before the 4IP person. But that is a discussion for another thread entirely.

[etherial]

I think it would be interesting to run all combats with 4 IP (or the maximum number of IPs for the parties involved), with the lower IP characters choosing which IP they will act on. Haven't thought about how this would look in practice at all though.

Assuming your players can reliably remember how many actions they've taken, you could just run with 4 passes and let them act on *any* pass unless they've used all their actions. It can get really bogged down if they're not all chomping at the bit to act, though.

[Dakka Dakka]

You're missing that some people would score more or less hits on a running test, thus allowing for someone to catch up or lose someone. That and fatigue, eventually someone is going to get tired.

The problem is that there is no test to increase the distance traveled per minute if you're jogging. So unless you run it is impossible to overtake an opponent. Granted that there probably isn't much overland movement by foot in the shadows it is still an ommission.

As for the splitting movement, you have it right when you write down figures. Running rate is 25m/turn + hits*2m/turn. The trouble is that multiple sprint actions don't stack, because each IP the running rate gets dropped back down to 25m/turn.

Where does it say that? What happens if you only use one of your two simple actions in an IP to sprint? Do you only get half the bonus? As I understand is you keep Running as long as you spend the free action to run, but the Running Rate is 25m/turn +2m/turn*Sum(hits in all Sprint tests). To get the distance per IP you divide this speed by the IPs

Yeah. I kinda feel it should work on a pyramid sort of structure. Something like this:

CODE

4IP 4IP 4IP 4IP
  3IP 3IP 3IP
    2IP 2IP
      1IP

So someone with 4IP will always go first, then someone with 3IP will go, then 4IP go a second time at the same time as 2IP goes for the first time, then second 3IP and only 1IP go, then third 4IP and second 2IP, then third 3IP and finally last 4IP.

This basically stops the oddity of the 4IP being several times quicker than the 1IP, and yet the 1IP can somehow react before the 4IP person. But that is a discussion for another thread entirely.

This however makes extra IPs even more deadly than they already are, and Initiative score irreleveant unless all combatants have the same number of IPs. With this rule it is impossible for an unaugmented character to act before one with extra IPs, unless he spends edge.

[Karoline]

The problem is that there is no test to increase the distance traveled per minute if you're jogging. So unless you run it is impossible to overtake an opponent. Granted that there probably isn't much overland movement by foot in the shadows it is still an ommission.

True, I didn't look into the long distance jogging stuff at all. If you think about it though, in a distance race it is much more about who gets tired first than who moves faster for the most part.

Where does it say that? What happens if you only use one of your two simple actions in an IP to sprint? Do you only get half the bonus? As I understand is you keep Running as long as you spend the free action to run, but the Running Rate is 25m/turn +2m/turn*Sum(hits in all Sprint tests). To get the distance per IP you divide this speed by the IPs.

What the book says is that you move at your current speed and movement type until your next action. This implies that in your next action you will have a new movement speed and type (Thus why it resets to 25m/turn). If you want to run again, you have to spend another free action, if you want to sprint again you have to spend another simple action. Sprinting increases your per turn movement rate, which is then divided by the number of IPs you have.

Part of the problem with adding it all up is that for the first IP you move 25m + hits*2/4, then you move 25m +hits*2*2/4, then you move 25m + hits*3*2/4 and finally you move 25m + hits*4*2/4. This means that you move at a regular speed at the start of a combat turn, and then boost it into hyper drive by the end of your turn, then drop back down to normal human speeds at the start of the next combat turn.

This doesn't make sense and so I figure in order to prevent this weird form of movement, and in order to stop an IP meaning world class running speeds, you have to use the implied but not directly stated rule that each time you declare your movement, you are doing so on the base movement.

So when you declare that you are running on your second IP, you run at 25m/turn, regardless of what you might have done on your first IP. If you want to increase that you have to spend a simple action(s) to sprint, thus increasing the 25m/turn, which then gets divided by number of IP. You then move at that speed, and then next time you declare movement type, it once again goes back to 25m/turn. There are -very- few thingse]ot in the game that I can think of where what action you took in a previous IP affects your actions in the current IP directly. For instance, the fact that you had a thousand points of recoil on your first IP doesn't affect how well you shoot during your second IP at all. Similarly, the fact that you sprinted in your last IP, shouldn't affect your movement in this IP at all.

Hope that all makes sense.

This however makes extra IPs even more deadly than they already are, and Initiative score irreleveant unless all combatants have the same number of IPs. With this rule it is impossible for an unaugmented character to act before one with extra IPs, unless he spends edge.

It doesn't make it irrelevant on IPs where they overlap (3IP's second pass and 1IP's only pass for instance).

I do agree it makes having extra IPs more deadly, but if you think about it, a large number of fights are finished in 1-2 IP anyway, so having more than 2 IP is almost a waste because you only occasionally get to make real use of them.

Also consider the fact that someone with 4IPs likely has a reaction time 1/4th that of someone with 1IP. So if someone with one IP has (for example) a 1 second reaction time, and someone with 4IPs has a .25 second reaction time, wouldn't it make sense that it is essentially impossible for someone with 1IP to react faster than someone with 4IP, and thus impossible for them to act sooner in a combat turn.

I mean it takes someone with 1IP 3 seconds to accomplish an action, but someone with 4IP can accomplish that action in only .75 seconds. Yet the 1IP person completes his action in the same .75 seconds as the 4IP person because he finishes his action before the 4IP person gets his second action.

I don't know how it works out from a balance point of view, but from a realistic point of view, it doesn't make sense that the 4IP person only acts faster after the 1IP person has done his thing.

[Mercer]

I don't know how it works out from a balance point of view, but from a realistic point of view, it doesn't make sense that the 4IP person only acts faster after the 1IP person has done his thing.

It's really a lot like SR2 Initiative (and SR1 I guess, although I started with 2), where if Guy 1 had an Initiative 32, and Guy 2 had a 7, Guy 1 would act on 32, 22, 12, then Guy 2 would act on 7, then Guy 1 with the last action of the round on 2.

Now, I liked SR2 Initiative, but the longest played character I had started his career at 5+1d6 and ended it 430+ karma later at 7+1d6. My next character started at 16+3d6 and ended 2.2 million (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) later at 17+3d6. Speed was deadly in SR2, especially since Combat Pool refreshed on each action (meaning if I had 4 IPs to another character's 1 IP, I had four times the CP).

They "fixed" this in SR3, and made it a lot less punishing to play a 1 IP character, but I felt like something essential to the grim, meathook playstyle was lost. SR2 Initiative played like every other system, everybody takes their first action, then everybody takes their second action, and so on.

I can see both sides of it. From a sim perspective, I liked SR2, from a game perspective I liked SR3.

[Karoline]

Well, what I suggest has kind of a middle ground between 'Low goes last' and 'Low goes first' in that 'low goes right in the middle'.

SR2 had the low initiative only act in the very last round of a turn, but SR4 has low initiative act with everyone else until they run out of IPs, then they just 'stand around' and wait for a new turn. With the pyramid method I have above, you get a mix. High initiative will always go first, but low gets to act somewhere in the middle, breaking up the relentless onslaught of a high initiative.

[Mongoose]

This means that while someone with 4 IPs makes 4 sprint tests, each sprint test is only 1/4th as effective as someone with 1 IP. Following the rules prevents the silliness of having someone with an extra IP or two outstripping a world class runner without even trying.

And induces the silliness of a character with multiple IPs having to spend more edge to run equally fast as a character with fewer IPs (assuming they spend edge on running tests). Less a serious problem, but still a nuisance.

How about just limiting the number of sprint tests you can make in a turn to 1, and having it boost your movement rate for remainder of the turn? The guy with multiple IPs couldn't run any faster (no extra sprint tests), but he could do other coll things while running equally fast (assuming they ran in the same IP) - which is kinda the point of having multiple IPs.

And honestly, all turns should be treated as having 4 (or 5) IPs; somewhere in the world, SOMEBODY is jacked in in hot boosted sim, and you might just run into them. Of the options I've heard, allowing every person to move (but not act) in every IP seems best. Simply limiting total movement per turn would work equally well, but people would likely jam all their movement into the first IP, and I don't see fights (especially gunfights) working that way. Both are equally abstract, just a matter of using an abstraction that gives the results that fit your view of the scene. In fact, "move as much as you want up to total per turn" might work well in some settings (crowded settings where action is very choppy) and "per IP" might work better in others (settings where motion is basically linear and the situation is fairly clear to all involved).

[Karoline]

And induces the silliness of a character with multiple IPs having to spend more edge to run equally fast as a character with fewer IPs (assuming they spend edge on running tests). Less a serious problem, but still a nuisance.

How about just limiting the number of sprint tests you can make in a turn to 1, and having it boost your movement rate for remainder of the turn? The guy with multiple IPs couldn't run any faster (no extra sprint tests), but he could do other coll things while running equally fast (assuming they ran in the same IP) - which is kinda the point of having multiple IPs.

That does sound like it would make quite a bit of sense. The main purpose of my post was to point out what the rules say though, because most people seem to have the stacking idea firmly stuck in their heads

[Mercer]

And induces the silliness of a character with multiple IPs having to spend more edge to run equally fast as a character with fewer IPs (assuming they spend edge on running tests). Less a serious problem, but still a nuisance.

Likewise, you could let the Sprint Test ride for the round (meaning, apply it equally to all future IP movements). A character with multiple IPs could test again-- if they rolled low the first time, for instance-- but that's another advantage to having multiple IPs.

[JoelHalpern]

There are several interesting alternative rules in this thread.
I do have to disagree with your initial reading of the rules though Karoline. While I like your result better, the rules say
"Each hit adds 2 meters to the character's distance for that combat turn."

Figuring out how far the character has gone in an IP is then easy. He has gone ((base run / IPs) + (2 * sprinting hits)). That's what it says. Total it up for all IPs in the combat turn, and you get exactly the specified result.
While I understand that this produces strange answers, and that other results may be more desirable, RAW is clear.

The side-effect of RAW is also clear. The Sprint test is a simple action. It can be done twice in an IP. And it is cumulative. So unless one is willing to change the rules, extra IPs do allow you to cover more ground per 3 seconds. (We will not aanlyze what the running speed of a hyped Troll is. Neither African nor European.)

Yours,
Joel

[Ol' Scratch]

You quoted the portion that covers that, though. Let me add some emphasis. "Each hit adds 2 meters to the character's distance for that combat turn." What that means is you only ever have to use one Simple Action per turn in order to sprint, unless you decide to stop and start again during the course of your passes during that turn.