So, I've noticed the board full of people who seem to think that by having multiple IPs you can sprint at 50 KPH without breaking a sweat. I figured I'd throw up this thread to clear up some of the misconceptions about running with multiple IPs.

The main misconception has to do with sprinting. It is very important to notice that the book specifies that sprint modifies your running rate, which is a m/turn figure. This means that when sprinting, you have to divide the bonus movement by your number of IPs, just like you do for the basic running rate.

It is then important to note that a particular movement only lasts until your next action (IP), so during your next action, if you want to continue at that sprinting speed, you have to spend another free action running, and another simple action doing the sprint.

This means that it doesn't matter how many IPs you have, you still move the same distance in a given combat turn.

So, this is the way a combat turn goes from the view of movement:

1. Reset your movement to null. This is no movement and all movement rates return to their basic numbers.
2. Declare movement type: None, walking, running.
3. If running, you may use a simple action to increase your running rate by 2m per hit on a running + strength test.
4. Divide your movement rate (Walking, running, or modified running) by the number of IPs you have.
5. You may move up to the distance found in step 4.
6. You have the movement type picked in step 2 until your next action (IP) at which point you return to step 1.

This means that while someone with 4 IPs makes 4 sprint tests, each sprint test is only 1/4th as effective as someone with 1 IP. Following the rules prevents the silliness of having someone with an extra IP or two outstripping a world class runner without even trying.

Hope this helps clarify the rules for everyone, just got tired of seeing posts about how someone with extra IPs instantly became a universe class sprinter that could keep up with vehicles.

How much running could a runner run if a runner could run while running a run?



Thanks for the clarification!

Yeah, people have been guilty of that for several editions now, myself included. I think part of the blame - at least with 1st and 2nd edition - was the opening fiction "Plus ça Change." In the story, Nameless - the street sam who is relating the story - notes that he kicks up his wired reflexes, but only a little bit, because "truckin' down the street as 70 kph is gonna get some attention", implying that nervewires DID increase your running rate.

Now, my memory for the running rules in 1st and 2nd edition is highly spotty at best, so it may have been viable, but I know it was divided as you say for 3rd edition. So that may be where some of the wackiness comes in.

Step 4 in the list is where the problem is, but the problem is the exact opposite of the concern being addressed. A character with an IP of 2 can move faster than a character with 4 IPs; twice as fast, in fact, if you assume they are otherwise identical. At least for purposes of that Combat Turn. Let's say they're both dwarves just to keep the math simple. The first guy gets to run 10 meters as part of each of his action phases, whereas the other guy only gets to run 5 meters. If they were sprinting to a gun that's, say, 15 meters away in some bizarre contest, with the winner getting to shoot the loser, the guy with 2 IPs gets to win each and every time. There's no contest at all.

There's a very reasonable solution to the whole thing, and that's just opening the movement rules to abstraction like most everything else in the game. Simply allow characters to move their movement rate however they like during a single Combat Turn. Do it all in one pass or spread it out evenly across them all. The net effect is the same, but no longer are the characters with less reflexive augmentation faster than those who are so augmented.

It wasn't a problem in earlier editions when initiative was handled in the opposite direction (with the slower characters having to wait several passes before they get their turn). It's just that style of initiative was really, really lame for that very reason. If you weren't augmented out the ass, you had the pleasure of just sitting there twiddling your thumbs. And considering how deadly combat can be, you might not even get to do anything during a fight.

They just kind of glossed over the fact that the movement rules lead to a weird paradox when they changed to the new system.

Assuming no sprinting (because randomness of dice etc), they both reach the line at the same time. They both have the same movement rate, which is measured in meters per turn. Since the turn is the same amount of time no matter how many IPs people have, the guy with 2 IPs does not reach the finish line before the guy with 4. The guy with 4 IPs just has the option to do more things in the 3 seconds becase his reflexes are better, but they both move the same rate in the same amount of time.

Think of it this way: The two dwarves are racing cars, but the cars are both stuck at 60 mph. One has 2 IPs and the other has 4. They both will reach the finish line at the same time because they are both going the same speed (all other things being equal), but the guy with the 4 IPs has more chances to shoot the 2 IP dwarf's car because of his wired reflexes/etc/etc.

I agree that there is a problem with 1IP man being able to get 25m in the same time it take 4IP man to get 6.25m and then 1IP man just stands around waiting for the other 2.25 seconds of the combat turn.

Personally I think the rules should be adjusted such that movement is treated as though everyone has 4IP, and 1IP man gets to move 6.25m in the first IP, then another, then another, then another. He can use his actual actions at any point during that movement timeline that he wants. This means that if he is charging down someone, he has to get shot at for just as many IPs as someone with a higher number of IPs.

But my post was for the point of explaining how the rules have it work out. You're very correct that in the time scale of IPs low IP is good for moving fast, but in the time scale of turns, all IPs move at the same speed.

Your example is wrong. Movement rate is divided by number of passes per turn, not number of passes per an individual runner's turn. So IP 2 guy is still going 5m an IP, because IP 4 guy has upped the number of passes to 4 that turn. It does create the odd situation of IP 2 guy having two passes where he can do nothing but move 5m, but on the upside, it does mitigate a bit the boredom less augmented players get when waiting for the street sam/mage/vr hacker to finish their turn, as they still have something to do.

Seriously, that's not how it works. "If a character mixed his modes of movement in a Combat Turn and it becomes important to know exactly how far a character moved in a particular pass, simply divide his Movement Rate by the number of passes in that turn." SR4A p.149.

It's actually a terribly phrased rule, because it's using past tense for some reason, but the essential rule is in there.

Ah, so it works how I'd like it to, just phrased poorly. I always figured that rule meant how many passes that person had for that turn.

Edit: Though it should be noted that someone with only 1 IP can't mix his modes of movement, so in theory wouldn't fall under this rule at all.

Here, this is clearer: "A character continues to move in the last mode he chose during passes in which he does not have an action. This means a character with only one action, for example, who chooses to walk or run in the first Initiative Pass will be walking or running through subsequent Initiative Passes." SR4a, p.148.

Probably should have used that quote first.

Right, that is for the sake of getting the 'target is running' adjustment on being shot at. Neither of those really say that someone with only 1 IP moves 6.25m per everyone else's IP. Otherwise there would be problems with someone with 1 IP charging a target that is 25m away and getting a melee attack. By the rules the attack happens right away, but what you say says that he should still be 18.75m away from the target by the time his IP is over.

I totally agree with you, Dr. Funkenstein.

Also I'm not sure your right in your interpretation, Karoline, since the book says that you only divide the running rate by the character's IPs, if the character mixes his movement modes. There are only two, walking and running. Sprinting is not a third movement mode but just something you can do while running.
So if someone runs all of his IPs and sprints in one or more of them the whole 2m/hit are added to the Running rate of the character. As such by RAW no matter how many IPs you have and how often you sprint, the Running rate is 25/turn +Hits*2m/turn for humans orks and elves. Trolls and dwarves have a different base rate but the calculation is the same.

I just found out that long distance chases are impossible, since the jogging rate of all characters unless they are very tall or short or have augmentations. Or am I missing something?

@Karoline: Can you show me where it says that if a character has only one IP, he travels only 1/5 of his movement rate and the rest in the four remaining possibly imaginary IPs? It would make sens but this screws up the whole initiative rules if said 1IP character wants to do something at the end of his movement.

You're missing that some people would score more or less hits on a running test, thus allowing for someone to catch up or lose someone. That and fatigue, eventually someone is going to get tired.

As for the splitting movement, you have it right when you write down figures. Running rate is 25m/turn + hits*2m/turn. The trouble is that multiple sprint actions don't stack, because each IP the running rate gets dropped back down to 25m/turn.

And sprinting counts as mixing your movement modes, because in one pass you are sprinting, and in the others you aren't. If you sprint for all 4 IPs, then you aren't changing it, but you only get to adjust your base movement rate once, not four times.

This example clears up the fact that you would divide it regardless of if you actually change your movement or not.


Notice how it starts out by figuring out that he moves 8m per pass, then states that if for some reason he stopped for a pass, but ran for the other two, he would only move 16m. In other words it runs on the asumption that you always split up the running rate, even if you run for all three because it might "Become important to know how far a character moves in a particular pass."



I think it should be or personally, because it could be important to know how far a person moves in a particular pass even if they don't change movement modes. For example, it is important to know how far a person moves in an IP if they are running from a grenade, but by the strict interpretation of the rules that you are using (By requiring a change in movement modes) it is impossible to tell, because you can only know that they move 25m a turn.

I think it would be interesting to run all combats with 4 IP (or the maximum number of IPs for the parties involved), with the lower IP characters choosing which IP they will act on. Haven't thought about how this would look in practice at all though.

Yeah. I kinda feel it should work on a pyramid sort of structure. Something like this:

So someone with 4IP will always go first, then someone with 3IP will go, then 4IP go a second time at the same time as 2IP goes for the first time, then second 3IP and only 1IP go, then third 4IP and second 2IP, then third 3IP and finally last 4IP.

This basically stops the oddity of the 4IP being several times quicker than the 1IP, and yet the 1IP can somehow react before the 4IP person. But that is a discussion for another thread entirely.

Assuming your players can reliably remember how many actions they've taken, you could just run with 4 passes and let them act on *any* pass unless they've used all their actions. It can get really bogged down if they're not all chomping at the bit to act, though.

The problem is that there is no test to increase the distance traveled per minute if you're jogging. So unless you run it is impossible to overtake an opponent. Granted that there probably isn't much overland movement by foot in the shadows it is still an ommission.

Where does it say that? What happens if you only use one of your two simple actions in an IP to sprint? Do you only get half the bonus? As I understand is you keep Running as long as you spend the free action to run, but the Running Rate is 25m/turn +2m/turn*Sum(hits in all Sprint tests). To get the distance per IP you divide this speed by the IPs

This however makes extra IPs even more deadly than they already are, and Initiative score irreleveant unless all combatants have the same number of IPs. With this rule it is impossible for an unaugmented character to act before one with extra IPs, unless he spends edge.

True, I didn't look into the long distance jogging stuff at all. If you think about it though, in a distance race it is much more about who gets tired first than who moves faster for the most part.


What the book says is that you move at your current speed and movement type until your next action. This implies that in your next action you will have a new movement speed and type (Thus why it resets to 25m/turn). If you want to run again, you have to spend another free action, if you want to sprint again you have to spend another simple action. Sprinting increases your per turn movement rate, which is then divided by the number of IPs you have.

Part of the problem with adding it all up is that for the first IP you move 25m + hits*2/4, then you move 25m +hits*2*2/4, then you move 25m + hits*3*2/4 and finally you move 25m + hits*4*2/4. This means that you move at a regular speed at the start of a combat turn, and then boost it into hyper drive by the end of your turn, then drop back down to normal human speeds at the start of the next combat turn.

This doesn't make sense and so I figure in order to prevent this weird form of movement, and in order to stop an IP meaning world class running speeds, you have to use the implied but not directly stated rule that each time you declare your movement, you are doing so on the base movement.

So when you declare that you are running on your second IP, you run at 25m/turn, regardless of what you might have done on your first IP. If you want to increase that you have to spend a simple action(s) to sprint, thus increasing the 25m/turn, which then gets divided by number of IP. You then move at that speed, and then next time you declare movement type, it once again goes back to 25m/turn. There are -very- few thingse]ot in the game that I can think of where what action you took in a previous IP affects your actions in the current IP directly. For instance, the fact that you had a thousand points of recoil on your first IP doesn't affect how well you shoot during your second IP at all. Similarly, the fact that you sprinted in your last IP, shouldn't affect your movement in this IP at all.

Hope that all makes sense.



It doesn't make it irrelevant on IPs where they overlap (3IP's second pass and 1IP's only pass for instance).

I do agree it makes having extra IPs more deadly, but if you think about it, a large number of fights are finished in 1-2 IP anyway, so having more than 2 IP is almost a waste because you only occasionally get to make real use of them.

Also consider the fact that someone with 4IPs likely has a reaction time 1/4th that of someone with 1IP. So if someone with one IP has (for example) a 1 second reaction time, and someone with 4IPs has a .25 second reaction time, wouldn't it make sense that it is essentially impossible for someone with 1IP to react faster than someone with 4IP, and thus impossible for them to act sooner in a combat turn.

I mean it takes someone with 1IP 3 seconds to accomplish an action, but someone with 4IP can accomplish that action in only .75 seconds. Yet the 1IP person completes his action in the same .75 seconds as the 4IP person because he finishes his action before the 4IP person gets his second action.

I don't know how it works out from a balance point of view, but from a realistic point of view, it doesn't make sense that the 4IP person only acts faster after the 1IP person has done his thing.

It's really a lot like SR2 Initiative (and SR1 I guess, although I started with 2), where if Guy 1 had an Initiative 32, and Guy 2 had a 7, Guy 1 would act on 32, 22, 12, then Guy 2 would act on 7, then Guy 1 with the last action of the round on 2.

Now, I liked SR2 Initiative, but the longest played character I had started his career at 5+1d6 and ended it 430+ karma later at 7+1d6. My next character started at 16+3d6 and ended 2.2 million later at 17+3d6. Speed was deadly in SR2, especially since Combat Pool refreshed on each action (meaning if I had 4 IPs to another character's 1 IP, I had four times the CP).

They "fixed" this in SR3, and made it a lot less punishing to play a 1 IP character, but I felt like something essential to the grim, meathook playstyle was lost. SR2 Initiative played like every other system, everybody takes their first action, then everybody takes their second action, and so on.

I can see both sides of it. From a sim perspective, I liked SR2, from a game perspective I liked SR3.

Well, what I suggest has kind of a middle ground between 'Low goes last' and 'Low goes first' in that 'low goes right in the middle'.

SR2 had the low initiative only act in the very last round of a turn, but SR4 has low initiative act with everyone else until they run out of IPs, then they just 'stand around' and wait for a new turn. With the pyramid method I have above, you get a mix. High initiative will always go first, but low gets to act somewhere in the middle, breaking up the relentless onslaught of a high initiative.

And induces the silliness of a character with multiple IPs having to spend more edge to run equally fast as a character with fewer IPs (assuming they spend edge on running tests). Less a serious problem, but still a nuisance.

How about just limiting the number of sprint tests you can make in a turn to 1, and having it boost your movement rate for remainder of the turn? The guy with multiple IPs couldn't run any faster (no extra sprint tests), but he could do other coll things while running equally fast (assuming they ran in the same IP) - which is kinda the point of having multiple IPs.

And honestly, all turns should be treated as having 4 (or 5) IPs; somewhere in the world, SOMEBODY is jacked in in hot boosted sim, and you might just run into them. Of the options I've heard, allowing every person to move (but not act) in every IP seems best. Simply limiting total movement per turn would work equally well, but people would likely jam all their movement into the first IP, and I don't see fights (especially gunfights) working that way. Both are equally abstract, just a matter of using an abstraction that gives the results that fit your view of the scene. In fact, "move as much as you want up to total per turn" might work well in some settings (crowded settings where action is very choppy) and "per IP" might work better in others (settings where motion is basically linear and the situation is fairly clear to all involved).

That does sound like it would make quite a bit of sense. The main purpose of my post was to point out what the rules say though, because most people seem to have the stacking idea firmly stuck in their heads

Likewise, you could let the Sprint Test ride for the round (meaning, apply it equally to all future IP movements). A character with multiple IPs could test again-- if they rolled low the first time, for instance-- but that's another advantage to having multiple IPs.

There are several interesting alternative rules in this thread.
I do have to disagree with your initial reading of the rules though Karoline. While I like your result better, the rules say
"Each hit adds 2 meters to the character's distance for that combat turn."

Figuring out how far the character has gone in an IP is then easy. He has gone ((base run / IPs) + (2 * sprinting hits)). That's what it says. Total it up for all IPs in the combat turn, and you get exactly the specified result.
While I understand that this produces strange answers, and that other results may be more desirable, RAW is clear.

The side-effect of RAW is also clear. The Sprint test is a simple action. It can be done twice in an IP. And it is cumulative. So unless one is willing to change the rules, extra IPs do allow you to cover more ground per 3 seconds. (We will not aanlyze what the running speed of a hyped Troll is. Neither African nor European.)

Yours,
Joel

You quoted the portion that covers that, though. Let me add some emphasis. "Each hit adds 2 meters to the character's distance for that combat turn." What that means is you only ever have to use one Simple Action per turn in order to sprint, unless you decide to stop and start again during the course of your passes during that turn.

Not sure I understand what you are getting at. You don't have to sprint at all.
If your point is, if you sprint for one simple action for one IP, you get 2 extra meters, (rather than 2 meters / #IPs), then I agree with you.

The other question is whether sprinting for more than one simple action in one IP does anything for you. As I read RAW, I can not see why they wouldn't add up. This does mean that a person with 4 IPs, i.e. 8 simple actions, is effectively running at mase 3.125 meters per simple action, and whenever they sprint they more than double that speed for that simple action.

I will not in passing that none of the many game rules I have seen over the years seem to get both sprinting and long distance running right. Most can not get either one right.

Yours,
Joel

No.

You only ever have to blow a Simple Action once per combat turn to sprint. Doing so adds 2 meters to your movement rate for each hit on the associated Running Test. Just like normal running only takes one Free Action to initiate. One started, you maintain that movement rate until you switch to another one. And even if you do switch modes, you're not going to increase your sprint speed; you just resume it based upon your previous roll because that's your total boost for the entire turn, not the single action you blew to initiate it.

There are two different phrases used for the same rule.
SR4A Pg 137 Using Running: "Each hit adds 2 meters to the character’s distance for that Combat Turn"
SR4A Pg 149 Sprinting: "Each hit adds 2 meters to their Running Rate."

Interesting point. (In SR4 the corresponding quotes are on pages 118 and 138, for those like me with the base book.)

Let's assume the character is running for the entire combat turn. (Mixed mode makes this even more confusing.)
In that case, by the end of the combat turn, I seem to still get the same effect. It does not seem to justify requiring that I sprint each IP in order to get the effect for the whole turn. Either that extra distance is covered in the one IP, or the effect is spread out over the whole combat turn, as long as I run for the whole combat turn. Note that the extra running rate for the combat turn applies whether I sprint on by first simple action of the combat turn, or my last one.

Admittedly, Dr. Funkenstein's house rule that only one sprint action does you any good in a combat turn seems reasonable, and avoids many of the strange effects. But I don't see any way to claim it is RAW.

Yours,
Joel

It's not a house rule... It costs a Simple Action to initiate a sprint. Sprinting lasts the entire Combat Turn, not the duration of the Simple Action. Just like Running costs a Free Action to initiate but lasts the entire Combat Turn.

Plus, the RAW is only as good as the W. That is, it isn't particularly helpful when rules are muddled, arcane, or have multiple interpretations.

Yowza. Thanks for jacking up my perception!

Here's some rule dissection for ya. I'll bold the important parts.

SR4A pg148
"There are two types of movement: walking and running. Characters
may move at one of these two rates during each Initiative Pass, or they
may choose to remain stationary. To walk or run, the character must
declare it during the Declare Actions part of his Action Phase. Walking
does not take up any action, but running requires a Free Action.
Once a mode of movement has been declared, the character
moves in that mode until his next Action Phase. A character continues
to move in the last mode he chose during passes in which he does not
have an action. This means a character with only one action, for example,
who chooses to walk or run in the first Initiative Pass will be walking
or running the same throughout subsequent Initiative Passes. The
movement mode can only be changed when the character acts again."

From what I see here is if you have to declare your movement each phase then it's going to take a Free Action each phase to run.

SR4A, pg149

Sprinting
Characters may attempt to increase their running distance by spending
a Simple Action (rather than just a Free Action to run) and making a
Running + Strength Test. Each hit adds 2 meters to their Running
Rate.

If you decide to sprint instead of running it takes a Simple Action each action phase.
Also, notice that Sprinting adds to the Running Rate, not the distance of movement that phase. So if I'm a human and there are 3 IPs this combat turn and my sprint test lands me an extra 8 meters (for a total of 33 meters Running Rate, then I can sprint 11 meters this phase.

Boy are my players going to hate this....

I see how you get there. I wish, if that was their intent, that slightly different wording had been used to indicate that the sprint itself, like the run it modifies, was a continuing action.
This interpretation is certainly simpler than trying to divide the sprint bonus by the number of IPs.
And it means that the best unaugmented human sprinter does the 100m in only a hair under 9 seconds, instead of 7.5.

Yours,
Joel

Contrary to my previous post we've always played it:

- Want to Run, spend a free action once. Each phase after that that you wish to run you do not expend a free action (as long as you do not change movement modes).
- Want to Sprint, spend a Simple Action once. Make a skill check once. Each phase after that you wish to sprint you do not expend a Simple Action (as long as you do not change movement modes). Additional Sprint checks are not cumulative; they can only replace poor Sprint checks.

Due to this thread I'm not sure what's right now but I think we've been playing it wrong. I worry about a game where simple movement takes long discussions.

It didn't work that differently in previous editions. I'm working from memory, but your walking rate was QUI in meters, you're running rate was QUI x (Racial Mod), which was 3 for humans, orks and elves, and 2 for trolls and dwarves. (Although one of the editions made trolls 3.) An Athletics (Running) test raised your effective QUI 1 per 2 successes. Movement was still divided up between the IPs.

That's how I remember it working. It would be interesting for someone who was playing a troll since SR1 who updated the character, you'd go from being one of the slowest people (low QUI plus bad running modifier) to one of the slower people (low QUI plus decent running modifier) to one of the fastest people (faster base move than non-trolls, plus the Sprint roll is STR based, which you can be awesome at). To put another way, 2052 Olympics, the Tirs bring home all the sprinting gold. 2072, it's all trolls, baby.

Fixed for accuracy.
You base movement on the number of passes in that combat, not on how many the player has. If the player has 1 IP and there are 3 combat passes, the player acts in 1, but moves for all 3.

Updated! Thanks for pointing that out.

And adding to your statement:

SR4A, pg 148
"A character continues to move in the last mode he chose during passes in which he does not have an action. This means a character with only one action, for example, who chooses to walk or run in the first Initiative Pass will be walking or running the same throughout subsequent Initiative Passes. The movement mode can only be changed when the character acts again."

This can lead to some pretty silly situations. I allow folks to "slam on the brakes" when something unexpected happens. Kind of leaves them standing there till their next phase though which can be 3-4 passes away...

If the "hitting on the brakes" was to avoid something harmful that springs up, I'd be inclined to include a REA test of some sort.

Woo, yeay for this thread getting people to actually read the rules.

Yes, that is how it works. You must spend a free action for every single one of your IPs that you want to run in. You must spend a simple action each of your IPs if you want to boost your speed via sprint. Your bonus movement from sprint is added to your per turn movement speed, which is then divided by IP. You can 'stack' two sprints in the same IP, but when a new IP comes around, your running rate gets dropped back down to normal, so you can't stack sprints through multiple passes and make superman cry at how fast you run.

This interpretation makes the assumption that when the text says "adds 2 meters to their running rate" it is referring to their running rate per combat turn.
It could just as easily, and internally consistently, mean that it adds two meters to the running rate "for the initiative phase".
I can see where you get the conclusion that the sprint must be restart every IP. Equally, since the run does not need to be restarted, one could conclude that the sprint does not need to be restarted either (since it is a change in running style.)
With the run, they very explicitly indicate that you only need to worry about dividing for each IP if you use different modes on different IPs.
If they had intended a similar division on the Sprint, I would have expected them to have said so.

I think, if one is trying to reconcile the unclear text with a sensible reality, one is better off with Dr. Funkensteins interpretation that one only needs to sprint once per combat turn, and that extra sprints would only be relevant if one had stopped running. That avoids giving high-IP folks extra speed, and avoids declaring that sprinting takes half your concentration, no matter how fast you are.

It is unfortunate, but not uncommon, that the rules as written are somewhat vague.

Yours,
Joel

Actually, my suggestion was not that far from RAW:



So under RAW, a character with 4 Actions/turn must use 'em or lose 'em on each Pass.
A character with 3 Actions/turn must use (or lose) the first 2 Actions on each of the first 2 Passes, and can use the last on Pass 3 OR 4.
A character with 2 Actions/turn must use (or lose) the first Action on the first Pass, but can use the other on any subsequent Pass.
And a character with only one Action/turn may use it on any Pass, allowing them to spend their whole movement and then act (on Pass 4).

I suggest you actually read & spend some time attempting to comprehend the rules, as this is blatantly incorrect.




Now that the appropriate sections have been provided, note that the distance modifier of Sprinting is not in any way dependent on future or previous modes of movement. For each and every Sprint action taken, the total distance you move in the Combat Turn increases by 2m per Hit. Thus, if you have 4 Initiative Passes, and you spend a single Sprint action on your first pass, achieving 3 Hits, and walk the remaining 3 passes, you move (Running Rate ÷ 4 * 1) + (Walking Rate ÷ 4 * 3) + (2 * 3) meters. It would be identical if you walk the first three passes, & sprint the fourth pass.

If you have 4 Initiative Passes, and you spend two simple actions per pass Sprinting with 3 Hits per test, for the duration of all 4 passes, the equation would look like (Running Rate ÷ 4 * 4) + (2 * [3*2*4] ) meters, or (Running Rate + 48) meters.

If a wired-up guy can move his arms fast enough to engage four times as many targets, it makes just as much sense for him to move his legs fast enough to break landspeed records.

Just call it posthuman and move on I guess..

Yeah that's the only sane way to do it. But yes according to the rules it is divided on the number of IPs you have.

But if you use that very common house rule, you need some ruling on how you can move when you're out of action. That is, if you movement is divided by 4. Do you:
A: decide on your action where you are going to move the next 3 initative passes?
B: Decide every initative pass where you will move (even if you don't actually have an action)?
C: Same as above, except being able to set movement mode (walk/run), stop if you want

So what do you think? So far I've given people with 1 initative pass total freedom on movement when they are out of actions (option C) but now I'm considering limiting the movement to continuing what they were gonna do OR stop (since they don't have time to think and react as easily as those with more passes). This keeps the advantage with the high IP guys, but prevents the stupid Lemmings effect where people with 1 pass keep running down the stairs where there is not a Fire Elemental ready to BURN. Also, the bookkeeping involved with having 6 or more NPCs moving independently even when they don't have passes is tedious.


Edit: Urk never mind seems like there are more rules I didn't remember... it seems now the rules say you keep moving if you're out of actions. It doesen't say you can stop if something happens, but I don't think it's a bad ruling. But changing course? Hmmm.

Also I haven't been convinced yet if taking a sprint action "lasts" or not. Previously I have allow 2 per phase and let them all stack, which means wired characters can move pretty fast, if they have good running skill. Running with the free action seems to recent every phase though, so if you want to keep on running you need to expend a new free action (which means you can't use them for anything else such as Intercept attack).

Sprinting on the other hand only gives a slight boost to the total movement, so having to test, then dive, then add to movement rate, and then afterwards subtract it from the movement rate again seems a bit tedious....

I've never suggested that this is the case.



The main problem here is that the rules for movement and the rules for the sprint test disagree with one another.

The rules for the sprint test say it adjusts for the combat turn, in which case your numbers are correct and joe blow with an extra IP or two can easily outrun an unaugmented Olympian.

Under the movement rules however it says that the sprint test adjusts your Movement rate, which is then divided by 4. It also says that each IP you have to pick your movement type, which sets your Movement rate back to the base for that movement type (Walking/Running/None). So what you have is that I am in fact doing it correctly if you use the rules in the movement section with the idea that the rules dealing purely with movement override the rules presented under a particular skill dealing with movement.

If however you take the rules presented in the sprint test and assume they override the rules presented under movement for moving, then yes, your numbers are perfectly correct.



Except that wired reflexes does not cause you to move faster it causes you to react faster. You're arm still gets from point A to B in the same amount of time, but it starts to move from point A to B sooner after you realize you need it to, and you also realize you need it to quicker.

Edit: Please note also that following the 'sprint adjusts maximum movement per combat turn' ruling creates very serious oddities. This includes the fact that you can stop moving and yet still move because you have CT movement that hasn't been used up. Example: you have 2IP and sprint durring the first, gaining 10m to the amount you move during a combat turn, but can only use 5m of the extra movement per IP. On the second IP you come to a total stop and yet can still 'glide' 5m because you have it left over from your sprint. And also creates small time warps or yo-yo speeds. Example: You do double sprints on each of your 4 IPs. That either means that you run progressively faster on each IP as you're movement speed goes up and you have to not only account for the increase, but make up for the movement that you can no longer take, and then when you hit a new combat turn you come to a near screeching halt (You run 35m/ct on IP 1, then you run 45m/ct on IP 2, then you run 55m/ct on IP 3, then you run 65m/ct on IP 4, then you're back to 35m/ct on IP 1 of the new round) or the time warp in which you have to go back and retroactively increase your speed on previous IPs so that you don't create the yo-yo effect.

Well, way I figure it would work is: Lets say you have 1 IP. You still act on the 1st IP (Which is also the first movement IP) and you get to set you're movement speed with a walk/run/sprint action. You then move however far for that movement IP. If you don't want to do anything yet (Because you haven't gotten where you wanted to yet) then you hold your remaining actions until you get to where you want to. So you might hold off until the 4th movement IP before you actually do your attack or whatever. Similarly if you had 3 IP, you would act on 1st movement IP, and then get to choose three of the four movement IPs on which to take actual actions.

And as for changing direction or stopping, I think this falls under the question of it you still have actions left or not. If you still have actions left, then you can react (Because IPs are a measurement of reaction speed, and actions are a subdivision of IPs, kinda), and if not then you're too focused on other things, or simply can't react quickly enough to stop or change direction or whatever.



The sprinting deal isn't that bad. You just divide by your number of IPs and that is how much extra you move in that IP. It does get a little murky if you're dealing with the 'always assume 4 IPs for movement', but still not too bad if you do it right. Basically just go with (movement type + sprint bonus)/4 per movement IP from whenever the person sets movement type to whenever they have another chance to set movement type. So a 3 IP person could sprint all out, and it would last for movement IPs 1 and 2, and then on movement IP 3 they would take their 2nd real IP and then you would have to refigure how quickly they move.

Sounds really complicated trying to explain it, but it isn't so bad.

Gameplay example:
GM: Okay, everyone roll init *Lots of rolls*. Alright, first IP, what is everyone doing.
Mr. 3 IP: Okay, I'm going to run down the hallway to engage in melee, I'm using both actions to sprint all out here. I get 3 hits and 2 hits, so 10m/ct bonus.
Mr. 1 IP: I'm going to run down the hall too, but I won't sprint, want to save my actions till I get closer.
GM: Okay, Mr. 3 IP, you move ((25+10)/4)m down the hallway, and Mr. 1 IP, you move (25/4)m down the hallway. 2nd movement IP, does anyone want to take an action?
Both: No.
Gm: Alright, you both move the same distance as last time, Mr. 3 IP, you're only 5 m away from the baddies now. 3rd movement IP, actions?
Mr. 3 IP: Alright, I'll take my second IP now. Free action to keep running and finish closing in, then complex to kick butt.
Mr. 1 IP: Crud, I'll finish my 1 IP now and just shoot them twice with my pistol or I'm not going to get to kill anything.
Gm: Good, one of the guards throws a grenade. 4th movement IP now. Actions?
Mr. 3 IP: Umm... full run away from the grenade, cool, 4 hits and 4 hits again. I get ((25+16)/4)m away from the grenade.
Mr. 1 IP: Crud, I've used my actions, I can't stop or change direction or anything, so I keep running right onto the grenade, why did I have to focus on shooting my pistol?
Gm: BOOM!
Mr. 1 IP: *sigh* hand me another character sheet.

So, not overly complex, though a small amount of extra work remembering what personal IP people are on and if they still have actions left and so on. It's up to you if it is worth the extra trouble or not.

A bit lazy to quote it all but here it is...¨

For charging etc. it works fine. However the Lemmings effect is kinda stupid, especially when there are several IP phases until mr. lemming hits the "dead end." That could actually mean a second or more of running and the lemming can't do anything but continue.

I'd give him a reaction check to stop at the very least. Remember that even if you're out of actions, you can still make defense tests based off the Reaction attribute, regardless of passes. You can even make a full dodge, taking one of next round's complex actions even when you're out of actions.

So the rules already give presedence that having an IP isn't necessary to react to something (you just need to be aware of it). If you're a mean GM you could force mr lemmings to do a perception check to spot the obvious, but I think I'd just keep the reaction check if it was something unforeseen and sudden (say, during his action), and otherwise let him at least stop.

As an alternative you could do it close to making full dodge, by having mr. lemming spend a free or simple action in advance that he loses next turn.

Yeah, I'd forgotten that you can dip into a future action. So yeah, no need to have the lemming affect, they just have to burn a free/simple/complex (Depending on what they want to do) action from their next IP.

That could work. Stop= free action (takes no more time than a quick swing of a sword in an intercept), change direction=simple action (needs a sprint), quick stop and then running opposite direction at full speed=2 simple actions (double sprint).