Cyberlimbs and the non-physically fit., Am I reading this right? Options

[Justin]

I've read a lot about cyberlimb rules lately. But I want to make sure I understand it right. Lets say there is a hacker or rigger character (human, for simplicty), who has horrible stats in Strength, Agility, and Body (lets give them a value of 1, for arguements sake and easy math). The rest of his attributes would be split between Reaction, Logic, Charisma, Willpower, and Intuition-- all of his mental stats plus reaction would be really high, right?

Other than the massive essence loss, and huge monetary cost-- couldn't he replace all four of his limbs with cyberlimbs, and a cyber torso? They would all start with 3 strength, agility, and body right? Then with upgrades, he could upgrade each of those stats to his racial max of 9, with the only drawback of eating up capacity in each limb (and a bit more money), right?

Now this seems like a cool concept for a character (some out of shape rigger or hacker, who replaces most of his body in order to tinker with it), but it seems quite overpowered-- am I missing something here? Obviously it would take a TON of money, because the essence cost on a full body (two full arms, two full legs, torso, skull) is just over 6. So you would have to use deltaware limbs. But if you could finally afford cost of deltaware limbs in play, it would be quite interesting. From what I hear, hackers can make quite a bit of extra cash with odd jobs, right?

Anyway, forgive the major cheese here-- I'm just trying to see if my understanding is correct in how cyberlimbs work by giving an extreme example.

[LurkerOutThere]

That is the benefit of playing a hacker over say an Otaku/Technomancer/Adept the ability to cybernetically enhance yourself to round out your character. The obvious downside to this method is it is cost prohibitive for one and essence prohibative for another meaning you can't use that essence for things to make you a better hacker (encephelon, internal) or things that make you more well rounded in general (skillwires, MBW, cybereyes, wired reflexes) so it is a trade off. But other then that, sure why wouldn't it be a valid concept, although keep in mind you can't start with deltaware in most situations.

[Ol' Scratch]

It's also the very concept of a Jarhead/Cyborg character. They're just Hackers/Riggers in a full-conversion cyber body. And I do mean full. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Justin]

Yeah, its more of me trying to give an extreme example of the concept, to make sure I understood right. I think I get it now though.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

That is the benefit of playing a hacker over say an Otaku/Technomancer/Adept the ability to cybernetically enhance yourself to round out your character. The obvious downside to this method is it is cost prohibitive for one and essence prohibative for another meaning you can't use that essence for things to make you a better hacker (encephelon, internal) or things that make you more well rounded in general (skillwires, MBW, cybereyes, wired reflexes) so it is a trade off. But other then that, sure why wouldn't it be a valid concept, although keep in mind you can't start with deltaware in most situations.

You could do it with Alpha Ware and still have plenty of room to expand the character...

Keep the Faith

[Jaid]

on a side note, while rare there will still be times when your actual attribute ratings could come into play. for example, should you get poisoned, you will be resisting said poison with a body attribute of 1, not the body attribute of your cyberlimbs. i can't think of anything offhand for strength or agility, admittedly (unless you're biting someone).

also, with the amount you would spend on this body, i'm not sure you would have much left to spend on gear for other stuff...

[Tachi]

Keep in mind that you can also buy customized cyberlimbs (Augmentation P. 44) that have stats up to your natural attribute maximum (6 for a human) without using up capacity slots, for +1 Availability and +1500 Nuyen per point raised. Raising it to the augmented maximum still uses slots however.

[Stahlseele]

You could do it with Alpha Ware and still have plenty of room to expand the character...

Keep the Faith

plenty being 1,2 Essence.

Keep in mind that you can also buy customized cyberlimbs (Augmentation P. 44) that have stats up to your natural attribute maximum (6 for a human) without using up capacity slots, for +1 Availability and +1500 Nuyen per point raised. Raising it to the augmented maximum still uses slots however.

meaning for a +3 in Availability for the basic limb and a +4500 Nuyen per limb.
And this only gets worse with alpha-ware.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

plenty being 1,2 Essence.

meaning for a +3 in Availability for the basic limb and a +4500 Nuyen per limb.
And this only gets worse with alpha-ware.

You could eek out even more with Biocompatibility and Adapsin (Assuming that GM will let you start with Adapsin Mods)...

Double costs are not all that bad, money comes easy in Shadowrun... it only gets expensive if you are trying to cram in a wired (not so bad) or Move by Wire system (atrocious) as well...

Keep the Faith

[Tachi]

meaning for a +3 in Availability for the basic limb and a +4500 Nuyen per limb.
And this only gets worse with alpha-ware.

Yeah, but he said money wasn't really an issue (or implied it at least)... And capacity is life for a full body replacement... Gotta have those extra gizmos. But, yeah, even with delta grade, you'd probably have to use bioware IP enhancement, with the automatic 1/2 multiplier for having more cyber, it could still work out... if money wasn't an issue.

[Stahlseele]

Remember that capacity goes down as grade goes up, if that hasn't been changed in 4th Edition . .
As the Essence Price drops, the Capacity drops too. While Money Price goes up for Limb and Addons.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Yeah, but he said money wasn't really an issue (or implied it at least)... And capacity is life for a full body replacement... Gotta have those extra gizmos. But, yeah, even with delta grade, you'd probably have to use bioware IP enhancement, with the automatic 1/2 multiplier for having more cyber, it could still work out... if money wasn't an issue.

This is very true indeed... gotta love Synaptic boosters, if Essence is an Issue... but with everything going your way, you could get .3 Essence Loss using Cyberware with Delta, Biocompatibility and Adapsin... at that point why bother with Bioware (except for their concealability)...

By Comparison, You could get to .4 Essence Loss with Bioware Biocompatibility and Delta Grades... for the money, it will be cheaper with Cyberware (by Comparison)... Bioware is so damn expensive to start with, though Essence Loss caps are much better... .6 Essence Loss with Rating 3 Synaptic Boosters vs 1.5 Essence Loss with Wired/Move By Wires 3...

And as for money, Cyber is the way to go ...

Synaptic Boosters Rating 3 Delta = 2,400,000
Wired Reflexes Rating 3 Delta = 1,000,000
Move By Wires (But what a Boost you get here) Rating 3 Delta = 1,750,000

Of course, If you have the appropriate contacts, you cna even get a discount on price as well...

Black Market Pipeline (Cyber) will net you an additional 10% discounted cost...


Keep the Faith

[hahnsoo]

Remember that capacity goes down as grade goes up, if that hasn't been changed in 4th Edition . .
As the Essenec Price drops, the Capacity drops too. While Money Price goes up for Limb and Addons.

This is no longer true in 4th edition.

[Tachi]

Remember that capacity goes down as grade goes up, if that hasn't been changed in 4th Edition . .
As the Essenec Price drops, the Capacity drops too. While Money Price goes up for Limb and Addons.

Yeah, that's a good point to add considering that he never mentioned which Edition he was using, I'd just assumed 4th, which no longer has that rule.

[Stahlseele]

Ah, i see.

[LurkerOutThere]

You could do it with Alpha Ware and still have plenty of room to expand the character...

Keep the Faith

As others said if by plenty tou mean 1 or 2 essence tops, I actually just built that character the other day for a new player wanting to play a GITS cyborg style character. Additionally the original poster did specifically cite Deltaware so i responded based on that caveat.

[Dakka Dakka]

meaning for a +3 in Availability for the basic limb and a +4500 Nuyen per limb.
And this only gets worse with alpha-ware.

This cost is only for one attribute. Maximizing all three is +9 Availibility and +13500¥, per limb. And there are actually six of them. Most of the time you have to use the average of those attributes.

While there is no more rule that the capacity decreases with better ware grades, you are forced to install upgrades of the same grade.

@Justin: If you're still interested, Medicineman has a character called CybOrk. Maybe you can ask him for some pointers.

[Justin]

@Justin: If you're still interested, Medicineman has a character called CybOrk. Maybe you can ask him for some pointers.

Sure, I'd love to heard any advice anyone could give me. I'm probably going to be the only matrix based character for my group, so I'm trying to come up with a fleshed out character and concept. I was asking about this stuff with cyberlimbs because it had me wondering-- what if I made the cliche fat, out of shape hacker/rigger type.... but in a world where cyberware. Wouldn't the techie eventually want to replace parts of his meat body in order to tinker? So it was just a funny thought on my end-- what if he replaced most everything? (and then I started looking up the rules to make sure it'd work the way I thought it did)

So um... who is Medicineman, and how can I find out about CybOrk?

[Ol' Scratch]

It's a cool concept, but you're falling into a trap a lot of newer players fall victim to. You're trying to fit too much into a single character. 4th Edition, in particular, is rather brutal with regards to what you have to work with as a starting character (at least with the default build point system). If you try to make a Hacker/Rigger/Full-Conversion Cyberfreak, you're just going to end up kind of sucking at everything.

If I were you and dead-set on that concept, I'd probably just limit myself to one or two limbs to start with. Not only do you have a goal in-game to strive for, but it lets you be a better Hacker/Rigger. That's kind of important since you're filling a much-needed void in your group. You could even do some fun things with those few limbs, like throw in both types of Smart Jammers (directional and area), give your Commlink a very secure hiding place, and even get an Essence-free Nanohive to support those two swanky nanite types (Control Rig Boosters and... I forget the name of the other one, but it gives a bonus to Logic tests). Not only that, but you can score yourself a few free build points by taking the Infirm negative quality to cover your sloveny body that you so desperately want to replace. Heck, you can even give him a rather macabre mindset where he goes hunting for implants on his enemies to sell or trade for some of his own.

You don't always have to start the game at your concept's end-point. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Stahlseele]

Go with 2 modified legs or lower legs and one tricked out arm.
Into the legs, Skimmer-Disc-Feet, Nanny-Hive and Armor, Into the Arm Grapple-Hand and high Agility/Strength and climbing claws and magnet system.
Presto, you can go water-skiing behind cars on the streets now.

[Justin]

It's a cool concept, but you're falling into a trap a lot of newer players fall victim to. You're trying to fit too much into a single character. 4th Edition, in particular, is rather brutal with regards to what you have to work with as a starting character (at least with the default build point system). If you try to make a Hacker/Rigger/Full-Conversion Cyberfreak, you're just going to end up kind of sucking at everything.

If I were you and dead-set on that concept, I'd probably just limit myself to one or two limbs to start with. Not only do you have a goal in-game to strive for, but it lets you be a better Hacker/Rigger. That's kind of important since you're filling a much-needed void in your group. You could even do some fun things with those few limbs, like throw in both types of Smart Jammers (directional and area), give your Commlink a very secure hiding place, and even get an Essence-free Nanohive to support those two swanky nanite types (Control Rig Boosters and... I forget the name of the other one, but it gives a bonus to Logic tests). Not only that, but you can score yourself a few free build points by taking the Infirm negative quality to cover your sloveny body that you so desperately want to replace. Heck, you can even give him a rather macabre mindset where he goes hunting for implants on his enemies to sell or trade for some of his own.

You don't always have to start the game at your concept's end-point. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

He'd simply be a completely mundane hacker who dabbles in rigging. So no cyberware to start-- its something he'd want to do in-game as he builds up the funds. Everyone needs a reason for shadowrunning, right? I never meant that I would start with any limbs-- and he'd only consider it once he's built up an amazing commlink and several good drones.

[Dakka Dakka]

It's a cool concept, but you're falling into a trap a lot of newer players fall victim to. You're trying to fit too much into a single character. 4th Edition, in particular, is rather brutal with regards to what you have to work with as a starting character (at least with the default build point system). If you try to make a Hacker/Rigger/Full-Conversion Cyberfreak, you're just going to end up kind of sucking at everything.

QFT

Not only that, but you can score yourself a few free build points by taking the Infirm negative quality to cover your sloveny body that you so desperately want to replace.

I'd really advise against it. With that quality you are unaware in all Physical skills you don't possess and can never learn skill groups. No Athletics, Stealth, or Oudoors Group. It also means that you will automatically drown, get lost, starve etc. unless you buy the appropriate skills for twice the Karma or BP.

Heck, you can even give him a rather macabre mindset where he goes hunting for implants on his enemies to sell or trade for some of his own.

That is an interesting and disturbing concept.

So um... who is Medicineman, and how can I find out about CybOrk?

He is a user on this forum. Just send him a PM.

[Traul]

Not only that, but you can score yourself a few free build points by taking the Infirm negative quality to cover your sloveny body that you so desperately want to replace.

Infirm has nothing to do with cyberlimbs: limbs change your physical attributes, Infirm impairs your physical skills. And anyway, if it was possible to cure Infirm with cyberlimbs (you could take para/quadriplegic instead of Infirm), you would be required to buy the quality back with karma first, so it would only be a BP loan, not free BP.

Heck, you can even give him a rather macabre mindset where he goes hunting for implants on his enemies to sell or trade for some of his own.

You mean there are people NOT doing that? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/devil.gif)

[Ol' Scratch]

I didn't say it was a cure-all for Infirm. I said Infirm made sense for the character concept. Fat, lazy guys aren't exactly world-class athletes, sneaky ninjas, or masters of the outdoors. And should he go down that conceptual path, picking up a set of Skillwires makes perfect sense. Now he has the attributes and the skills to make the most of it, all 100% tinkerable.

[Dakka Dakka]

You are right that it kinda fits, but, while I like the increased cost and the inability to reduce the cost by taking groups, making someone Unaware of such basic things as Perception and Jumping is a bit over the top.
With the new cost of Active Softs in SR4A to me skillwires are only viable, if you crack the software, which opens a whole new can of worms. You can't use Edge on Active Softs either.