I've read a lot about cyberlimb rules lately. But I want to make sure I understand it right. Lets say there is a hacker or rigger character (human, for simplicty), who has horrible stats in Strength, Agility, and Body (lets give them a value of 1, for arguements sake and easy math). The rest of his attributes would be split between Reaction, Logic, Charisma, Willpower, and Intuition-- all of his mental stats plus reaction would be really high, right?

Other than the massive essence loss, and huge monetary cost-- couldn't he replace all four of his limbs with cyberlimbs, and a cyber torso? They would all start with 3 strength, agility, and body right? Then with upgrades, he could upgrade each of those stats to his racial max of 9, with the only drawback of eating up capacity in each limb (and a bit more money), right?

Now this seems like a cool concept for a character (some out of shape rigger or hacker, who replaces most of his body in order to tinker with it), but it seems quite overpowered-- am I missing something here? Obviously it would take a TON of money, because the essence cost on a full body (two full arms, two full legs, torso, skull) is just over 6. So you would have to use deltaware limbs. But if you could finally afford cost of deltaware limbs in play, it would be quite interesting. From what I hear, hackers can make quite a bit of extra cash with odd jobs, right?

Anyway, forgive the major cheese here-- I'm just trying to see if my understanding is correct in how cyberlimbs work by giving an extreme example.

That is the benefit of playing a hacker over say an Otaku/Technomancer/Adept the ability to cybernetically enhance yourself to round out your character. The obvious downside to this method is it is cost prohibitive for one and essence prohibative for another meaning you can't use that essence for things to make you a better hacker (encephelon, internal) or things that make you more well rounded in general (skillwires, MBW, cybereyes, wired reflexes) so it is a trade off. But other then that, sure why wouldn't it be a valid concept, although keep in mind you can't start with deltaware in most situations.

It's also the very concept of a Jarhead/Cyborg character. They're just Hackers/Riggers in a full-conversion cyber body. And I do mean full.

Yeah, its more of me trying to give an extreme example of the concept, to make sure I understood right. I think I get it now though.

You could do it with Alpha Ware and still have plenty of room to expand the character...

Keep the Faith

on a side note, while rare there will still be times when your actual attribute ratings could come into play. for example, should you get poisoned, you will be resisting said poison with a body attribute of 1, not the body attribute of your cyberlimbs. i can't think of anything offhand for strength or agility, admittedly (unless you're biting someone).

also, with the amount you would spend on this body, i'm not sure you would have much left to spend on gear for other stuff...

Keep in mind that you can also buy customized cyberlimbs (Augmentation P. 44) that have stats up to your natural attribute maximum (6 for a human) without using up capacity slots, for +1 Availability and +1500 Nuyen per point raised. Raising it to the augmented maximum still uses slots however.

plenty being 1,2 Essence.

meaning for a +3 in Availability for the basic limb and a +4500 Nuyen per limb.
And this only gets worse with alpha-ware.

You could eek out even more with Biocompatibility and Adapsin (Assuming that GM will let you start with Adapsin Mods)...

Double costs are not all that bad, money comes easy in Shadowrun... it only gets expensive if you are trying to cram in a wired (not so bad) or Move by Wire system (atrocious) as well...

Keep the Faith

Yeah, but he said money wasn't really an issue (or implied it at least)... And capacity is life for a full body replacement... Gotta have those extra gizmos. But, yeah, even with delta grade, you'd probably have to use bioware IP enhancement, with the automatic 1/2 multiplier for having more cyber, it could still work out... if money wasn't an issue.

Remember that capacity goes down as grade goes up, if that hasn't been changed in 4th Edition . .
As the Essence Price drops, the Capacity drops too. While Money Price goes up for Limb and Addons.

This is very true indeed... gotta love Synaptic boosters, if Essence is an Issue... but with everything going your way, you could get .3 Essence Loss using Cyberware with Delta, Biocompatibility and Adapsin... at that point why bother with Bioware (except for their concealability)...

By Comparison, You could get to .4 Essence Loss with Bioware Biocompatibility and Delta Grades... for the money, it will be cheaper with Cyberware (by Comparison)... Bioware is so damn expensive to start with, though Essence Loss caps are much better... .6 Essence Loss with Rating 3 Synaptic Boosters vs 1.5 Essence Loss with Wired/Move By Wires 3...

And as for money, Cyber is the way to go ...

Synaptic Boosters Rating 3 Delta = 2,400,000
Wired Reflexes Rating 3 Delta = 1,000,000
Move By Wires (But what a Boost you get here) Rating 3 Delta = 1,750,000

Of course, If you have the appropriate contacts, you cna even get a discount on price as well...

Black Market Pipeline (Cyber) will net you an additional 10% discounted cost...


Keep the Faith

This is no longer true in 4th edition.

Yeah, that's a good point to add considering that he never mentioned which Edition he was using, I'd just assumed 4th, which no longer has that rule.

Ah, i see.

As others said if by plenty tou mean 1 or 2 essence tops, I actually just built that character the other day for a new player wanting to play a GITS cyborg style character. Additionally the original poster did specifically cite Deltaware so i responded based on that caveat.

This cost is only for one attribute. Maximizing all three is +9 Availibility and +13500¥, per limb. And there are actually six of them. Most of the time you have to use the average of those attributes.

While there is no more rule that the capacity decreases with better ware grades, you are forced to install upgrades of the same grade.

@Justin: If you're still interested, Medicineman has a character called CybOrk. Maybe you can ask him for some pointers.

Sure, I'd love to heard any advice anyone could give me. I'm probably going to be the only matrix based character for my group, so I'm trying to come up with a fleshed out character and concept. I was asking about this stuff with cyberlimbs because it had me wondering-- what if I made the cliche fat, out of shape hacker/rigger type.... but in a world where cyberware. Wouldn't the techie eventually want to replace parts of his meat body in order to tinker? So it was just a funny thought on my end-- what if he replaced most everything? (and then I started looking up the rules to make sure it'd work the way I thought it did)

So um... who is Medicineman, and how can I find out about CybOrk?

It's a cool concept, but you're falling into a trap a lot of newer players fall victim to. You're trying to fit too much into a single character. 4th Edition, in particular, is rather brutal with regards to what you have to work with as a starting character (at least with the default build point system). If you try to make a Hacker/Rigger/Full-Conversion Cyberfreak, you're just going to end up kind of sucking at everything.

If I were you and dead-set on that concept, I'd probably just limit myself to one or two limbs to start with. Not only do you have a goal in-game to strive for, but it lets you be a better Hacker/Rigger. That's kind of important since you're filling a much-needed void in your group. You could even do some fun things with those few limbs, like throw in both types of Smart Jammers (directional and area), give your Commlink a very secure hiding place, and even get an Essence-free Nanohive to support those two swanky nanite types (Control Rig Boosters and... I forget the name of the other one, but it gives a bonus to Logic tests). Not only that, but you can score yourself a few free build points by taking the Infirm negative quality to cover your sloveny body that you so desperately want to replace. Heck, you can even give him a rather macabre mindset where he goes hunting for implants on his enemies to sell or trade for some of his own.

You don't always have to start the game at your concept's end-point.

Go with 2 modified legs or lower legs and one tricked out arm.
Into the legs, Skimmer-Disc-Feet, Nanny-Hive and Armor, Into the Arm Grapple-Hand and high Agility/Strength and climbing claws and magnet system.
Presto, you can go water-skiing behind cars on the streets now.

He'd simply be a completely mundane hacker who dabbles in rigging. So no cyberware to start-- its something he'd want to do in-game as he builds up the funds. Everyone needs a reason for shadowrunning, right? I never meant that I would start with any limbs-- and he'd only consider it once he's built up an amazing commlink and several good drones.

QFT

I'd really advise against it. With that quality you are unaware in all Physical skills you don't possess and can never learn skill groups. No Athletics, Stealth, or Oudoors Group. It also means that you will automatically drown, get lost, starve etc. unless you buy the appropriate skills for twice the Karma or BP.

That is an interesting and disturbing concept.
He is a user on this forum. Just send him a PM.

Infirm has nothing to do with cyberlimbs: limbs change your physical attributes, Infirm impairs your physical skills. And anyway, if it was possible to cure Infirm with cyberlimbs (you could take para/quadriplegic instead of Infirm), you would be required to buy the quality back with karma first, so it would only be a BP loan, not free BP.

You mean there are people NOT doing that?

I didn't say it was a cure-all for Infirm. I said Infirm made sense for the character concept. Fat, lazy guys aren't exactly world-class athletes, sneaky ninjas, or masters of the outdoors. And should he go down that conceptual path, picking up a set of Skillwires makes perfect sense. Now he has the attributes and the skills to make the most of it, all 100% tinkerable.

You are right that it kinda fits, but, while I like the increased cost and the inability to reduce the cost by taking groups, making someone Unaware of such basic things as Perception and Jumping is a bit over the top.
With the new cost of Active Softs in SR4A to me skillwires are only viable, if you crack the software, which opens a whole new can of worms. You can't use Edge on Active Softs either.

You can for the massive cost of 0.1 Essence and 3,000 nuyen. The point remains nonetheless.

I do think not allowing people to default is a pretty silly rule in and of itself, though. Attribute - 1 is already a pretty big hit. Being infirm (at least as described, such as the "couch potato hacker") doesn't mean you can't do something, you just suck when you do.

Just a point, but Perception is not a Physical Skill... so Infirm would not affect it in the least...

Also a point, but You MAY NOT DEFAULT on a physical skill you do not have if you have the Infirm negative quality... you would either have to purchase the skill (at double cost) or get skillwires to bypass the limit (which I have issues with)...

Keep the Faith

Uhm, duh. I didn't say otherwise.

Regardless of the involved mechanics, it's hard to argue that a character described as being fat and lazy shouldn't have the Infirm quality. Arguing the mechanics of that flaw is something else entirely, and one that rightfully should be discussed with an individual GM. It's like recommending people not take the SINner: Criminal quality if they have a criminal SIN.

Actually you did... Here is the Quote...



You do not Suck when you do it, you cannot even attempt the action... this is what I was replying to... If I misunderstood, I apologize... And I do tend to agree with you in that respect, if you are describing the effects fo a negative quality, you should probably take the negative quality... but that may or may not be applicable, especially if you have a great concept and have already reached your Negative Quality Cap... at that point it is just flavor and not a mechanical drawback... you could have an Edge of 1 and be unlucky or have an edge of 7 and take the negative quality Bad Luck... in my opinion, it reaches the same objective...

Keep the Faith

Yes it is. You might be mistaking with Enhanced Articulation that only affects Physical skills that are linked to a Physical Attribute.

You are right... I was confusing it with Enhanced Articulation and Physical Skills lined to Physical Attributes...
Yep, the Infirm character would really suck if he refused to purchase Perception... but then again, that is his choice... There is a reason that Infirm is worth 20 Build Points... Odd that it does not affect Combat Skills at all... I would have thought that it would affect them just as well as the Physical Skills, but hey, that is the way it was written...

Keep the Faith

You have some serious mental problems, dude. Just quit replying to my posts unless you're going to learn how to fucking read properly.

Hello Pot...

Seriously, Your statement was pretty cut and dried... and I replied to it as such...

If you cannot debate in a polite fashion, and remove the Profanity, then you are really not worth a lot in my opinion... Kind of reduces your standing here if all you can do is reply with profane attacks when your ideas are challenged... and for reference, I would bet that my reading comprehension and retention is more than a match for yours... I may make mistakes from time to time, but at least I admit them, and am willing to learn... can you say the same thing?

Just because you have accumulated over 8,000 posts, it does not make you right... Please remember that...

Keep the Faith

Considering that half your posts around here the last three or four times you've gone on a spam fit have involved you hunting down my posts just so you can say something idiotic about them in order to incite me to reply just like this, I have only one thing to say: Piss off.

And yes, quoting the "Being infirm (at least as described, such as the 'couch potato hacker') doesn't mean you can't do something, you just suck when you do" part of my full post of "I do think not allowing people to default is a pretty silly rule in and of itself, though. Attribute - 1 is already a pretty big hit. Being infirm (at least as described, such as the "couch potato hacker") doesn't mean you can't do something, you just suck when you do" is, in fact, you being a fucking troll who can't read properly. So again: Piss off.

Did... did Dr.Funkenstein just call someone a troll?

Pffffttttttttttttttt........

Well, I do not hunt you down to antagonize you, it is just that oftentimes you say such stupid things, and I am inclined to respond... I post quite a bit here, more than you it seems, in a lot of cases, and I single no one out for antagonism...

anyway, KMA My Friend...

Keep the Faith

He thought that he was being Erudite... but completely missed the point that oftentimes he is the trollish one...

Keep the Faith

But if you are actively following him and posting after his posts, perhaps you should take some moments of self-reflection and ask "why am I doing this?" If you AREN'T actively following him, perhaps, in the spirit of harmony and good discussion, you should think twice before posting in response to him. If he is feeling persecuted, even if you think you aren't doing this on purpose, then you should express some measure of empathy and back off, right?

In the forums, people do tend to post in short bursts (whenever they eke out some time from their lives), but that doesn't mean you have to post a "Well said" or "I agree" everywhere.

I agree...

Well said.

Agreed...

Keep the Faith

Maybe Dr. Funkenstein is right about the trollish behavior. Think about that.

And yet of the three that did so, you chose my post to respond to? Interesting indeed...

Think about that...

And there is nothing wrong about posting a quick agreement or interrogative if that is your preference... I do not tend to berate others for doing so, why do you feel the need to do so yourself? Also an Interesting Question, don't you think?

Keep the Faith

I was referring to the point that you may make people feel like you are stalking them with the short agreements or "Well said" or whatever interspersed with other more well-formed comments, simply by sheer post count. It wasn't meant as a comment to berate you personally.

It's probably just a mis-communication on my part, as I had intended that comment to be put into the context of the earlier paragraph (but people somehow think that a double break return separates the meaning from the previous point, rather than providing a convenient breath of air between verbose paragraphs). Basically, my point is that the you may be unaware of the other person's feeling of persecution if you post so often and so flippantly.

Still, it's not okay to attack Dr. Funkenstein just because his opinion may differ from yours and is stated in a more loud and coarse manner. And if he feels persecuted by you (which he obviously does, in so many words), maybe you should back off a bit? You may think you're being funny, I guess, but I'd expect a bit more empathy from one such as you.

Which I am willing to do...
I do not tend to Attack perople personally however, and his remarks were way out of line... which Is why I continued to push the point a bit... I offer my apologies if my conduct forced him to feel persecuted...

In the end, I often agree with the Doc on things, sometimes I do not... on those times that I do not, I welcome the discourse that he provides, as long as he (or anyone else) remains civil about it... when it degenerates to blantant personal attacks and profanity, then I take exception... it is not necessary to profane someone to make a point, and it is definitely unprofessional to do so...

Anyways, I never hold a grudge, I just tend to expect some amount of decorum... Thanks for the discourse...

Keep the Faith

I had a reason for my simple post above.
And those who read my posts probably understood what my point was...



If you don't... check my start date and post count to that of Tymeaus. Not that I am picking on you Tymeaus, I often say in my posts that I don't feel I need to respond to many conversations and my post count shows that. Not that I have nothing to say but more that I would add nothing to the conversation. It is amazing how many jump into a topic and add nothing more than "I agree" or post what would best be described as attacks on topics that have effectively died.

You, TJ, attacked Dr. Funk in the Attunement topic. Whether you think you did or not is irrelevant. You basically said the same thing that myself or others did already and wrote it in a tone that is smeared with disdain. I understand why Dr. F gets harsh with his words with you.

I am the Medicineman
Cyb Ork is a Char (one of many) that I'm playing in SR4.F.E. this Weekand at a Convention in Remscheid (Germany)
He is Mundane.I made him using the optional Rule of a Full Cyborg Suite(with my GMs OK) and the Advantage of Bio Compatibility to Cyberware.
than I used up nearly all Resources to make a Alpha Cyborg Suite giving him a total of 40% discount to all Essence Cost with Cyberware (in the Cybersuite only .Any othe Cyber is 10% + Grade off)
Cyb Ork started with 4 to 6 in STR,REA,AGI and CON .I gave him Synaptic Acc I (more wasn't possible )for 2 IPs and he started with (IIRC) <0,5 Essence
He has now >75 Karma,has Attributes of about 6-8, 3 IPs (I upgraded the Synaptic Acc. to II ) and he's the Groups Main "Tank" .His Cyberarmor is 11/11 (not much more possible because I need the Slots for other Augmentations) and his total Armor is about 22-25/20-24.
I've been reassured several Times that the Char is not Imbalanced and he's far away from being completed

HeyaheyaHeya
Medicineman

Edited for Clarity, Spewlling and soem Grammar... My typing is atrocious today...

First Mikado, I have gone back and read the posts you are refering to, and if you actually look at them (there are 2 of them in the Attunement Thread) you will notice the EDIT placed before the actual text in the first post noting that I did not see the other posts prior to mine, and I added the edit so that it would not have to be read again... I did not remove it, as I was unsure if anyone had already perused the post... I hate Ninja Edits and removals... therefore I indicated to ignore it if you were not interested...

And second... there was no disdain involved at all.. I was citing references in the relevant points... as you said, much like others had done... As there is no tone on the internet, and no body language involved, I cannot be held responsible for someone else taking offense because they so choose... The only thing I will admit that I did was taunt him a bit because throughout the entire thread, he continued to change his arguments... which others had noticed and posted about as well... If you chose to interpret that as Disdain, well, then that is on you... But as I said before, no problems, If Doc. was offended, he could have come out and rationally and civilly said so, but he did not, he took it to the next level, and that is on him, not me.

I do not mind discourse or even argments, as long as they remain somewhat civil... when I am attacked, I tend to react poorly, and maybe that is a flaw on my part (and Incivility is in my book completely unacceptable, there is no need for it)... I have noticed that the Internet provides a "Forum" for those that want to make everything a personal affront, and many individuals do not provide the basics of civility because there are no reprecussions on the Internet... it is extremely impersonal... as a result, many people tend to become abusive and profane, for whatever reasons... who knows, maybe it makes them feel important or more powerful, I don't know... when That occurs, I will call someone on it, and make no apologies about doing so...

As for just thorwing in a quick agreement or two, there is nothing wrong with that, it shows support for a line of reasoning or topic... I do not apologize for that in the least... If it bothers you, don't let it... I always appreciate a quick word of agreement or support when I am posting (wherever I go), and I am sure that others do as well... If it offends you, then just ignore it and move on... it is not meant to be offensive...

Anyways, I am no way trying to provoke an argument with these statements, so everyone have a great evening...

Keep the Faith

How do you account for the Armor/Encumberance issues at that Rating of Armor?
Just Curious...

Keep the Faith