Military Forces in the 6th World, Force Composition Discussion Options

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

The line signal operator probably only has enough skills to do basic tactical EW, basic network security and basic network maintainence - it might actually be easier to just load up an agent and have the sig operator trained in getting the agent to do what the commander wants. Skill comparable to what we consider 'Hackers' in SR arn't going to be line signalmen; they're going to be Intel guys.

I don't know... Having been the Radio Operator for a Platoon/Company level force for several years, and knowing the people who actually ran the Commo shed, I would have to disagree... Hackers would now fill that role in the 2070's, as they would be the ones with the level of training to compete... it would be an MOS at worst, or a training school at best, depending upon the level of competence you are seeking... remember, at their core, your radioman is the one that coordinates Platoon/Company/Batallion/Regimental level tactics between units... NOT the guys in the Commo Sheds, nor the guys from Intelligence...

You would probably also have hacker specialists in the Intel Field as well, No Doubt...

Keep the Faith

[Brazilian_Shinob...]

Just a note here... Officers would need the tactical knowledge, but is an enlisted man (in almost every case) who actually runs the communicatios networks of most military units (you might have some Warrant Officer slots here as well, but probably not at anything less than the Batallion Level)... so the Enlisted Commo would get the Tactical Network duties, not the commanding officer of the platoon/company/batallion etc.

Keep the Faith

I'm aware of how this works today, I was thinking how this could be in the future. If you have a HUD and live-feed input, why would a "grunt" be in control of the communications network when the officer in charge can take care of this via AR or even VR quickly and without the need of another person for input and issue orders?

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I'm aware of how this works today, I was thinking how this could be in the future. If you have a HUD and live-feed input, why would a "grunt" be in control of the communications network when the officer in charge can take care of this via AR or even VR quickly and without the need of another person for input and issue orders?

Officers have other things to worry about... It is a viable option, but having someone else who SPECIALIZES in such activity will make it work better...

Though There is a fairly okay representation of such things in the Movie Aliens... The Lieutenant stays back to execute Command and Control from the Vehicle, while the Platoon Seargeant actually enforces the decisions made by the Lieutenant...

It works fairly well (at least for the movies), but I would prefer the expert to the officer any day for actual coordination, as they will be specialized in this regards, while the Officer is going to be skilled in the broader strokes of command... after all, it is not really the officers that run a military organization, it is the Non-Commissioned Officers that do so... the Officers just make sure that someone knows what it is that they expect to happen and let the professionals actually handle the execution of the plan (it has been my experience that officers do tend to overthink the solutions and get caught up in the what-ifs)... I do not see this changing much even in the future...

Keep the Faith

[Brazilian_Shinob...]

Well, fair enough you have much more experience in this matter than I do, and yes, something akin to Aliens II was what I had in mind. If it is the case, you could still have a comm expert and the officer in charge could have some kind of simulator to project the most likely outcome for a given tactic based on the input received by the tacnet.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Well, fair enough you have much more experience in this matter than I do, and yes, something akin to Aliens II was what I had in mind. If it is the case, you could still have a comm expert and the officer in charge could have some kind of simulator to project the most likely outcome for a given tactic based on the input received by the tacnet.

Sure, no doubt... but that will take time, not something done in the span of a single turn or two, which is what he (the officer) will be concentrating upon, while what the Comm/Tacnet Coordinator is doing is making sure that all his assets are communicating and updating on a continuing basis, and relaying communications from higher ups... 2 completely different jobs indeed...

So different in fact that there is a Cyberware Suite based upon this principle called the Cyberlogician... it is an awesome concept, and one that I have been using to great effect in the game for the last year or two... though I have been unable to obtain the complete package as of yet (mostly because of Essence requirements, I still lack the Encephalon and Simsense Booster)... Still, it is a goal of mine...

Keep the Faith

[StealthSigma]

Well, fair enough you have much more experience in this matter than I do, and yes, something akin to Aliens II was what I had in mind. If it is the case, you could still have a comm expert and the officer in charge could have some kind of simulator to project the most likely outcome for a given tactic based on the input received by the tacnet.

Point of order, the movie title is Aliens not Aliens 2. It's Alien, Aliens, and Alien 3.

As for makeup? Well that will depend how the battlefield molds itself. We can look to our current history to see how people will react. A prime example is the tank. In America, the development of the tank corps was severely hampered by infantry generals. Much to the chagrin of officers like Patton (who was one of the few Americans who commanded and used tanks in the first World War) tanks were being relegated to support infantry and moving at 3 mph instead of utilizing their amazing maneuverability potential. The line of thought was really dominant up until 1940-1941, even after witnessing the German blitzkrieg in Poland. It took over 20 years for tanks in the American army to be relegated to their own corps, instead of directly attached to infantry. Even then, some of the commanding tank corps generals were still of the infantry supporting tank school of thought.

Fast forward to the Vietnam War. This is the first war that demonstrated having to face guerrilla tactics at a large scale. Fast forward about 30 years and we still really haven't adapted effectively to guerrilla style warfare.

As for magic on the battlefield, it's going to be a specialization. It's 1% awakened individuals, but just a fraction of that are going to be full-fledged magicians. Of that, a fraction will take employment with national armed forces. Because of that rarity and expense, they're not going to be dispensable. They will be deployed in a fashion similar to how sniper teams are deployed, and consequently more in contact with the command staff, or they will be used to suppress, interfere, and otherwise prevent enemy casters from messing with the front line grunts.

Makeup.... the military will still be predominantly infantry, in fact there may be a decline in the volume of tank units as the urban sprawl continues to grow, unless tanks regularly just plow through buildings while involved in actions. Air units may also decline with the advancement of smart weaponry. Unless there is effective counter measures to protect helicopter style air support, that will decline in usage, though air bombardment will still be prevalent. I think artillery may actually gain significant traction. Smart weaponry combined with the potential to significantly increase range should see more accurate artillery at longer distances. Combine this with a lessened regard for metahuman life in general and I wouldn't be surprised to see sprawl battlefields end up turning into a huge expanse of rubble that is just rebuilt later by the megas for profit.

[Ascalaphus]

(snip)

Good points. You missed two more items I think; drones and skillwires. Drones can be very effective in hostile environments, and might be a cheap alternative to highly trained infantry. Skillwires allow the "drafting" of common people in ways that weren't before possible. They also allow highly-wired staff to become extremely versatile.

Think about it: skillwired workers become soldiers at the press of a button.

[StealthSigma]

Good points. You missed two more items I think; drones and skillwires. Drones can be very effective in hostile environments, and might be a cheap alternative to highly trained infantry. Skillwires allow the "drafting" of common people in ways that weren't before possible. They also allow highly-wired staff to become extremely versatile.

Think about it: skillwired workers become soldiers at the press of a button.

Skillwires are only useful for disposable troops, that's it. They're bad for any forces that will learn from experience. Any specialized soldier is going to be taught the skill natively, especially officers and sergeants.

As for drones, it doesn't change my assessment. Infantry drones, air drones, artillery drones.... you're just substituting a meat body with a metal body. Not everyone has the skills to be a Rigger for multiple drones, so they will likely retain support roles rather than primary offense. The hostile environment is a limited argument, remember the enemy is also in that hostile environment, so if their sacks of flesh can handle it, so can yours. Further, if the enemy can block out communications, the drones are useless. Boots on the ground will always outnumber drones.

[explorator]

Officers have other things to worry about... It is a viable option, but having someone else who SPECIALIZES in such activity will make it work better...

Though There is a fairly okay representation of such things in the Movie Aliens... The Lieutenant stays back to execute Command and Control from the Vehicle, while the Platoon Seargeant actually enforces the decisions made by the Lieutenant...

It works fairly well (at least for the movies)

Well, this type of CCC failed in Aliens (Ripley saved the squad). Black Hawk Down represents a RL example with great accuracy. The higher-up officers circling in aircraft and back at base are ineffective, and in fact serve as a hinder the action on the ground. In 2050+ communications will improve, which gives the false impression that 'Officers' are able to maintain effective C&C in real-time, but considering how wired most heavy-hitters are, such comm improvements will not compete with speed of the action.

Most likely, every professional soldier will have a comm-link and basic knowledge of communications (ECM, ECCM, etc.), but will still rely on small-unit tactics, training, and experience. I envision each soldier as an army of one (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) who will know what to do when local jamming sources overwhelm his comm network. I also see even grunts given some sort of dumbed-down versions of jammers and signal-security equipment.

[Ascalaphus]

You can give a drone instructions, then send it in under radio silence; after completing it's mission it flies back. Jamming can't stop that.

Skillwires don't make elite troops, but they do offer flexibility; you can turn anyone into a pilot, gunner or whatever in moments. You can give your troops "skill" in the time it takes to put in the implant and heal up again, that would otherwise take years.

[StealthSigma]

You can give a drone instructions, then send it in under radio silence; after completing it's mission it flies back. Jamming can't stop that.

Skillwires don't make elite troops, but they do offer flexibility; you can turn anyone into a pilot, gunner or whatever in moments. You can give your troops "skill" in the time it takes to put in the implant and heal up again, that would otherwise take years.

Like with any miltech it is the most powerful when it first appears. Then countermeasures crop up and it becomes just like any other miltech. Drones would yield to EMP based weaponry. This is the natural course of war. Likewise, if you give it orders then send it in, you have no flexibility on what it does while in the area of jamming. I may have spotted a command tent that it could have blown up, but completely ignored it because the target didn't fit within the pilot's orders.

Skillwires don't work for specializations, period. I think skillwires for pilots are worse than for grunts actually, because like any program it is predictable. It may be difficult to do so, but it is possible. The last thing you want is to be risking a multi-million piece of equipment just because of an exploitable predictability in the software. I don't see skillwires being worth the risk beyond drafted grunts. Now if you want an inflexible military force, by all means use skillwires. Smaller, flexible, imaginative forces will be able to defeat a far large numbers skillwire based force.

[Warlordtheft]

My assessment is that the cheap drones become cheaper, the more prevalent they will become. They do bring their own issues with maintnance though. My thoughts on a platoon TO for a UCAS/CAS infantry company (4 platoons+Headquarters section):

1 Captain (May be a an adept, if not definitely cybered up)
4 Leiutenants (May be a an adept, if not definitely cybered up)
1 Chief Thaumatlogical specialist (mage)+Max in binded spirits+1 Summoned
4 Thaumatoligical Specialists (Mages)+Max in binded spirits+1 Summoned
1 Cheif Comm Specialist (Hacker)
4 Comm Specailsts (Hackers)
1 Chief RPV specialist (riggers)
6 RPV specialists (riggers)
6 Combat Medics
1 Company Seargent (If not an adept, definitely cybered up)
4 Platoon Seargents (If not an adept, definitely cybered up)
32 Squad Seargents.
132 Other Enlisted of various ranks.



Standard Equipment:
Armor: Military grade: heavy, with full load out in hemet: Ar display, trodes, IR, lowlight, flare comp, sound dampners, vision magnification, smartlink, and armor is modified to increase the users mobility as much as possible.

Commlinks: Most security programs would be rating 6, with high level agents/IC loaded on them. All would be tacneted at the platoon or company level as the situation dictates. Riggers and Hackers would have access to rating 8 or higher programs.

Mundane enlisted troops would be encouraged to get cyber, but only those staying for more than one enlistment period.

For the riggers each would have: 6 survellance type drones each + 6 Comabt drones + 10 micro drones carried by the enlisted troops.
(Drone type would be 4 air and 2 ground typically, with half designated as anti-vehicle (AVMs and assault cannons), the other Anti-personnell (machine guns, and AP missles)-the micros would be air, but given the limited range would be carried by riflemen)

Heavy weapons:
4 Mortars (2 crew each)
6 GPHMG (2 crew each)
6 Panther Cannons
5 Rocket launchers (with a mix of AP and AV ammo) (2 crew each)
16 Light machineguns

(50 men)

Specialist Weapons:
6 Sniper rifles
(12 men)

Rifleman's weapon:
95 Colt M23-Smartlinked
22 Colt M22A2-Smartlinked

Side arms: Would vary depending the soldiers preference. A weapons teams would have an SMG, while other troops would have heavy pistol (probably and APIV). All sidearms would be smartlinked.

[kzt]

The insane cheapness of munitions, missiles, and drones (and to a lesser extent vehicles) in SR will bend events in ways that the real world won't.

[Apathy]

Ultimately for any force, form follows function. A well-funded CAS military which is primarily geared toward border defense and major conflicts in urban/suburban environments against large trained Atzlan and American Indian militaries will look very different than an army that is primarily focused on insurgency suppression. Economic and cultural factors would also weigh heavily. My take on things is below:

UCAS: Strong economy, relatively stable relationships with neighbors, minimal civilian unrest. The military would have a relatively small core of professional soldiers and augment heavily with Reserve/Nat'l Guard forces. Heavy use of drones and matrix as force multipliers. National Guard might encourage installation of skillwires sets, as it can increase combat effectiveness of troops despite minimal training, and because the skills can be replaced with practical corporate skills when they're released back into the civilian population. Military would primarily use small mobile strike teams for offensive force projection (hit squads, sabotage, etc). Due to scarcity of mages, magical resources would be consolidated at Battalion/Brigade level and attached to individual units on a mission-by-mission basis.

CAS: Strong economy, heavily-contested southern border, minimal civilian unrest. Would have a larger standing army. Would also use drones and matrix as force multipliers, and would have a greater emphasis than UCAS on heavy armor, artillery and air superiority to counter Atzlaners. Due to scarcity of mages, magical resources would be consolidated at Battalion/Brigade level and attached to individual units on a mission-by-mission basis.

NAN: Growning economy, minor civil unrest related to second-rate status of large [non-indian] percentage of population. Perception of threats from larger nations on all sides. Cultural support for magic users, who are seen as the 'edge' that NAN has had against CAS/UCAS. Mages would be more numerous and integrated at company level with regular forces.

Atzlan: Stagnant economy, significant and protracted internal unrest as well as threats from the more technically savy and economically healthy CAS and the magically powerful Amazonia. Authoritarian centralized government. Atzlan military is as much about quelling threats from within as it is about sparring with neighboring countries. As a result, they'll have a large standing army, and probably a mandatory service obligation for all [poor] citizens. Many boots on the ground allows them to keep their own country in check and provides social conditioning/brainwashing of most of the population. The government would stay in fear of military coup, and would therefore maintain tight centralized control of special assets like magical firepower, matrix support, and drones. Military would have parallel ranks of attached 'advisors' down to the company level to look for insufficient patriotism/loyalty. Tactics would not be closer to soviet massed assaults than Iranian human wave charges, but would still have less efficient use of force multipliers than any of their northern neighbors.

Amazonia: Stagnant economy, independant anti-establishment population. Militant new age hippie anarchists. Heavily magical with distrust of technology. Defense would be highly decentralized - more like groups of individual warlords than a unified fighting force. Heavy use of magic and general distrust of tech which minimizes matrix or drone use. Special assets are released down to the platoon level, and there would be inconsistencies in setup and resources of battalions from one region to the next. All units are supplied with environmental liasons to minimize interference with- and cooperation maximize cooperation from local inhabitants.

[Inane Imp]

Snip

^ this, so this.

I'd expect large amount of skill-wire usage in the Azzie grunt units: at a large scale its more likely to be cheaper and easier than actual training.

@Warlordtheft: Your suggesting 5-15 Awakened / coy in an SR military? Wow. Just wow. Almost everybody else here was wavering at 'maybe 1 / company. But Magic is probably a BN asset (in the CAS/UCAS at least).'

From a naval point of view, I wouldn't expect a mage (say Leut level) on anything below a frigate, and even then there is probably only one on the senior ship of an escort / whatever-the-jargon-is-in-SR group. I'd expect there to be 1 mage per destroyer (Leut/Leut-Commander), 2 maybe 3 (Leut-Commander/Commander and 2 Leuts) on larger ships such as amphibs and probably more on Carriers. (This is excluding mages undergoing their final training before qualification (Ensign / Leut JG), at which point they're probably sent to sea for 6-12 months and are supervised by a qualified seagoing mage, so maybe 1 on a FF/DD and more on larger ships).

Also, WRT cyberization of the units I'd expect every person to get largely the same cyber/bio-ware on induction / category training. Much as you now get issued boots and a rifle, I expect you to get issued boots a rifle and some ware as standard. Depending on your function this will be different (Officers will get some C+C hearware, people posted to Scout units probably get a Attention Co-pro in addition to standard infantry kit, Artillerymen at perhaps Sargeant level and above (don't actually know what level working the maths on fire missions starts at) get a Maths CPU, Hackers / Riggers get a Cyberlogician outfit, people who lose limbs in combat have them replaced at the Services expense - as a result picking a combat vet unit vs a green unit would be possible looking at the amount of additional cyber). This standardization makes everything cheaper and easier on the services - they get to buy in bulk, and there are people who are trained to fix it when its broke.

WRT Hackers. Most company level technical interaction is probably going to be on a communications and network security level, so I wouldn't term them hackers rather 'Tactical Communications Operators' - hackers imply far more range than I"d envisage them having.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Well, this type of CCC failed in Aliens (Ripley saved the squad). Black Hawk Down represents a RL example with great accuracy. The higher-up officers circling in aircraft and back at base are ineffective, and in fact serve as a hinder the action on the ground. In 2050+ communications will improve, which gives the false impression that 'Officers' are able to maintain effective C&C in real-time, but considering how wired most heavy-hitters are, such comm improvements will not compete with speed of the action.

Most likely, every professional soldier will have a comm-link and basic knowledge of communications (ECM, ECCM, etc.), but will still rely on small-unit tactics, training, and experience. I envision each soldier as an army of one (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) who will know what to do when local jamming sources overwhelm his comm network. I also see even grunts given some sort of dumbed-down versions of jammers and signal-security equipment.

I agree with you on this one... commanders removed from the front line have no real business dictating terms to the troops with their asses on the line...

As for the ubiquitousness of Comlinks... I agree that everyone will have the equipment to survive on the battlefield, and this will indeed include Comlinks and other electronic devices to make their life more survivable... however, I still forsee a dedicated Hacker/Cyberlogician coordinating the unit (or at the very least linking the unit and ensuring their network is functional and operational)...

Keep the Faith

[Heath Robinson]

The insane cheapness of munitions, missiles, and drones (and to a lesser extent vehicles) in SR will bend events in ways that the real world won't.

I'd say that cheap, effective armour would feature just as importantly. Even if an AK costs you a bag of rice, it's pretty worthless if you only get to use it once or twice.

[kzt]

I'd say that cheap, effective armour would feature just as importantly. Even if an AK costs you a bag of rice, it's pretty worthless if you only get to use it once or twice.

Guided weapons are VERY cheap in SR. Shooting two (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) 3,750 missiles with airburst at someone is a perfectly viable tactic, and the odds are that the target is going to have a very bad day with scatter of (2D6 -6 - net hits). An actual guided weapon in the real world (Javelin) costs $80,000 each.

[AngelisStorm]

I would be really suprised if every infantry soldier (those who will see combat in the event of a hostile situation) didn't have Wired Reflexes I. At 11,000Y, it's probably the single most cost effective upgrade a combat individual can get. I understand how Lone Star/Knight Errant, Metroplex Guard, etc. aren't Wired, but anyone who is reasonably going to see sustained combat as part of their job should have more than 1 IP. (Such as SWAT, First Responce Squads, and military infantry soldiers.)

(Heck, if the military wanted to be bastards about it, they can yank it out after their enlistment is over, and give it to the next guy in line. Unless, of course, you agree to enter the reserves. Since many individuals are likely to go into security of some kind, this grants a nation a large number of trained, already cybered individuals in an emergency.)

I agree that Skillwires are likely the next upgrade on the list (and in support roles, much more likely than wired). In a combat situation, it would allow a soldier to drive a tank, handle a support weapon, or perform first aid on a squadmate. Most of these are skills you should develop, but honestly, unless it's your specialty, do you really think most soldiers are going to have such skills beyond a 1 or a 2? (And in the case of Tank driving, at all?)

And especially in the reserves, a decent set of skillwires for R3 skills can make all the difference.

I also think there will be alot of drones. Sure, they can be jammed and hacked, but that's apart of the game. You just need to be better than the other guys. I think each squad is likely to have at least 1 individual with a really high signal comlink (and ECCM), so that they can control the drones in their vicinity, in case of jamming attacks. Lets not overlook Retrans Units, high signal, and ECCM.

The military LOVES new toys. We all know it will be the soldier, on the ground, with the boots, who will be doing most of the work. People are just to damn adaptable (and equipment fails) for it to be otherwise, until the Robots take over. But in a professional military, there is going to be full armor, goggles with low-light, therma, and smartlinks, tons of drones (not "armies" of them, like in Rifts, but still a lot in different roles). Look at the police today. It's good PR to use a robot in place of a human when you can. If nothing else, there will be a walker drone with spare ammunition (and a medkit or 3) following squads around.

[hobgoblin]

Amazonia: Stagnant economy, independant anti-establishment population. Militant new age hippie anarchists. Heavily magical with distrust of technology. Defense would be highly decentralized - more like groups of individual warlords than a unified fighting force. Heavy use of magic and general distrust of tech which minimizes matrix or drone use. Special assets are released down to the platoon level, and there would be inconsistencies in setup and resources of battalions from one region to the next. All units are supplied with environmental liasons to minimize interference with- and cooperation maximize cooperation from local inhabitants.

Not sure about the distrust for tech, more like distrust for wasteful production methods and similar.

a treehugger could very well embrace tech, as long as its sustainable made (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Hero]

I still think the military would use the good old VCR Deck as it would be more secure then this new wireless matrix connection that is now used for most everything. A VCR has far greater range then the Wireless Matrix and one major thing, it cant be countered with by matrix means. They have to have a rigger with a deck to conduct electronic warfare to jam or hi-jack your link to your drones, and if you really need to have the range expanded there is always having some forward team lug around a signal repeater and a signal booster. Wireless Matrix = Liability even with black IC and Personal Firewalls. The squads already have a form of tactical communications and rapid ad-hoc networks in the the form of tac-comms, and those come with hardwired encryption and ECM/ECCM already embedded in them. Only way to disable the hardware is to fry it, same with most military VCR, call me old school but why fix something that is not broken or superior.

[hobgoblin]

err, what now?

would that not basically be a case of protecting a network by using a non-standard protocol?
(or maybe making use of the non-standard wireless link hardware mod from unwired)

as for range, get a better antenna...

[Hero]

err, what now?

would that not basically be a case of protecting a network by using a non-standard protocol?

as for range, get a better antenna...

Could still be able to crack it buy means of a program, a VCR using a completely different kind of sim-sense standard so they cant really interact which is a inherent security feature one could call it that the military would appreciate. As it is now, all it would take is some time, or alot of stupid/blind luck to get onto the network and wreck some drone havok. Maybe for civilian applications of drones the wireless matrix is fine, but military stuff I would say not so. May cost the military more to have there drones made with VCR type receivers and controls as signals will not mix with wireless matrix ones, even the Crash 2.0 book has a example of this happening where a rigger had his signal cross with the deckers and had his drones go and shoot up each other.

And.. Well I guess if the DoD did accept Wireless Matrix/Matrix 2.0 as the new standard I am sure some branches or special outfits will stick to the older stuff they trust. Kinda like how the Marines kept there inventory of Model 1911A1 Operator pistols instead of using the pea shooter that is the beretta service pistol, 9mm is okay but the .45ACP is still a hell of a good man stopper. Close to 100 years old in design and still effective, same with the 7.62x54mmR. The 7.62x54mmR was first produced in 1891 and still being used in modern firearms. I can see the same case with the old VCR Deck standard for drone control, may be old and some may think its outdated but if it works and works well or even better then new stuff why switch?

[Ascalaphus]

I dunno.. using different standards doesn't really seem to apply. SR uses 6 (!) different standard Operating Systems without this having any sort of compatibility effects.

But what is this VCR thing you speak of? Some SR3 thing?

[BnF95]

The army could commission mages outside of the regular chain of command, such as Doctors and Lawyers, who are given commissions but then are assigned to Medical Corps or JAG Corps. Why not a Mage Corps?