Foci and Drain, SR4A you confuse me. Options

[Trigger]

So, SR4A dropped the section in the description of each foci that stated that the dice the foci provide can be withheld for drain, making me assume that in SR4A you couldn't use foci dice for drain (with the exception of the dice provided by Centering Foci). But rereading a completely different section of SR4A today, I noticed this section:

Pg: 185 SR4A: Ritual Spellcasting
Ritual Drain
At the end of the ritual, each member of the ritual team—including
the spotter—must resist the Drain of the spell. Individual magicians
with foci or bound spirits not otherwise occupied may use them to
help with Drain.

Does this mean that foci can assist all drain tests (depending on foci type) and that they forget to write it into the foci section? Or does it mean that you can only use foci dice to assist with drain while ritual spellcasting?

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

How Very Intersting... Missed that during the last topic firestorm on this very subject...

Keep the Faith

[Jaid]

it probably means they just c/p'd something and didn't think to remove it.

[Trigger]

it probably means they just c/p'd something and didn't think to remove it.

That was my thought too, but I wanted to see what others thought of this. It is the exact same wording as in the SR4 book, so it is probably just copy pasted.

[pbangarth]

I think the bit in the Ritual Spellcasting description is wrong.

[Dahrken]

It's not necessarily wrong. Think about it this way : one type of focus (centering focus) and a bound spirit can help with Drain for non-ritual spellcasting, so a mage ritually casting can use them too.

[Trigger]

It's not necessarily wrong. Think about it this way : one type of focus (centering focus) and a bound spirit can help with Drain for non-ritual spellcasting, so a mage ritually casting can use them too.

Then it would be wrong, because foci denotes multiple focus, and the centering focus isn't even in the core book. No, the devs probably just forgot to fix the wording in that section when they took the ability to aid drain away from Foci.

What I have been wondering though is why foci no longer have the ability to aid in drain. What is the reasoning behind this?

[pbangarth]

What I have been wondering though is why foci no longer have the ability to aid in drain. What is the reasoning behind this?

I suspect it had to do with doubling up of foci for a single test... in the sense that a Power Focus could be used for the Test and another focus for the Drain. I guess, a balance thing.

[Trigger]

I suspect it had to do with doubling up of foci for a single test... in the sense that a Power Focus could be used for the Test and another focus for the Drain. I guess, a balance thing.

Why would anyone bond any other foci outside Power, Counterspelling, Sustaining, and Weapon Foci then? Why use a Spellcasting Focus when a Power Focus will allow you to do the exact same thing, except to all spell types? Spellcasting foci used to be a something your character could consider, because it aided with Drain. Now nothing aids Drain except for Centering Foci, which you can't even use until after you Initiate and take Centering Metamagic.

[Axl]

I agree with Trigger. With the limitation on the number of foci (and the total Force points), there are many useless foci. I also regard counterspelling foci as worthless because each only helps against a single school.

[Dakka Dakka]

Then it would be wrong, because foci denotes multiple focus, and the centering focus isn't even in the core book.

True, foci is the plural of focus, but the use needn't mean different types of foci. It could also denote the (centering) foci of different members of the ritual team. AFAIK the bit about spirits is false though. There is no service that can reduce drain, or am I missing something?
Even if it were true, there is only one type of spirit (per tradition) that can help with any one spell. Allowing members of different traditions to form a ritual team is an optional rule.

@Spell focus vs. Power focus: The reduced Karma cost may be an incentive to use the former, especially if most of the caster's spells come from one category.

@counterspelling focus: what's wrong with that one. It's the only one that can provide bonus dice for defending against a spell of a certain category.

[Trigger]

True, foci is the plural of focus, but the use needn't mean different types of foci. It could also denote the (centering) foci of different members of the ritual team. AFAIK the bit about spirits is false though. There is no service that can reduce drain, or am I missing something?
Even if it were true, there is only one type of spirit (per tradition) that can help with any one spell. Allowing members of different traditions to form a ritual team is an optional rule.

@Spell focus vs. Power focus: The reduced Karma cost may be an incentive to use the former, especially if most of the caster's spells come from one category.

@counterspelling focus: what's wrong with that one. It's the only one that can provide bonus dice for defending against a spell of a certain category.

The centering Foci aren't in the BBB, so the a rule that includes them shouldn't be in the BBB, as it will confuse those who only have the BBB.

As for the spirit part, that confuses me too, as in no point in either SR4 or SR4A does the section on Spirit services state that they can aid someone with Drain.

I agree with your point on Spell Foci, but in the long run, it more efficient, and well, just better to have a Power Focus instead of multiple Spell, Summoning, Binding, and Banishing Foci, because hey, none of them can add their dice to Drain, and a Power Focus can be used instead of all of those.

Also, I didn't say there was anything wrong with Counterspelling Foci. I included them in the list of Foci that are actually worth it.

[Draco18s]

I suspect it had to do with doubling up of foci for a single test... in the sense that a Power Focus could be used for the Test and another focus for the Drain. I guess, a balance thing.

It wasn't that doubling up was unbalanced, but that doubling up was not intended and was consistently misinterpreted. You could use it for either casting [/i]or[/i] drain, or split the dice between the two, but the wordage was unclear about this.

Makes me think we need a new foci: the Drain Focus.

[Dakka Dakka]

Also, I didn't say there was anything wrong with Counterspelling Foci. I included them in the list of Foci that are actually worth it.

Actually this question was directed at Axl.

Makes me think we need a new foci: the Drain Focus.

You mean besides the Centering Focus? So even uninitiated magicians can get up to +6 drain dice without having to shout or dance? I don't think so.
There are already foci that can augment the drain pool for the uninitiated and are useful for other stuff as well: Health Sustaining Focus. Cast Increase Willpower and/or Increase other Drain Attribute into it and even the drain from indirect combat spells should be less of a problem

[Draco18s]

You mean besides the Centering Focus? So even uninitiated magicians can get up to +6 drain dice without having to shout or dance? I don't think so.
There are already foci that can augment the drain pool for the uninitiated and are useful for other stuff as well: Health Sustaining Focus. Cast Increase Willpower and/or Increase other Drain Attribute into it and even the drain from indirect combat spells should be less of a problem

I was considering making them very expensive to make, similar to a power focus, you you are correct that such a device would disrupt the balance.

[Ol' Scratch]

The text you quoted is not a rule in and of itself, it's simply permission for a rule. If you have any foci capable of helping with ritual spellcasting drain, then you may use them as part of that test. It doesn't suddenly let you use a weapon focus, for instance, to resist drain.

You just have to find an example that states that you can use the bonus dice a specific focus gives you to resist Drain. For example, a Spellcasting Focus adds its bonus dice to Spellcasting nd Ritual Spellcasting dice pools. If the rules allow you to reserve dice from those dice pools for use with resisting Drain, voila. Your focus is (indirectly) helping you with Drain. Otherwise it cannot. The last time I looked it up in SR4A, though, I couldn't find any direct references that let you do that. The best I found was an indirect comment in the rules for area effect spells that stated that any dice you used to modify the radius of the spell couldn't be used in any other associated test, such as Drain resistance.

If any rule is missing or well-hidden in SR4A, it's that one.

[Warlordtheft]

The centering Foci aren't in the BBB, so the a rule that includes them shouldn't be in the BBB, as it will confuse those who only have the BBB.

Because SR4a incorporates/mentions alot of stuff from the other core books (arsenal, street magic etc.), I don't see it as a problem. In fact there is a master index that shows topic by book, and page reference.

As I recall, I think some free spirit powers assist with drain but not bound spirits.

[Axl]

To Trigger and Dakka Dakka: I regard Counterspelling foci as worthless because each is limited to only one category. The Shielding focus (metamagic based) is better, although much more expensive so also, in my opinion, not worth getting.

[Dakka Dakka]

The Shielding focus (metamagic based) is better, although much more expensive so also, in my opinion, not worth getting.

IIRC the Shielding only helps with shielding which in turn only helps with spell defense. The Counterspelling Focus also helps with dispelling sustained spells. I agree though that a decent focus is not worth the karma expenditure.

[Axl]

Sure, there are subtle differences in the application of the Counterspelling focus and the Shielding focus. In my opinion, neither is worth getting - for any character, PC or NPC. The Counterspelling focus is too limited in use and the Shielding focus is too expensive.

Ironically, I consider the Power focus a "must-have" for all magicians. Since the introduction of Runner's Companion with Restricted gear, every magician should have a Force 4 Power focus at character creation. Sustaining foci are great for buffing spells, of which Increase Reflexes is mandatory. The other Health attribute buffs are also very good in Sustained foci, notably Increase Willpower. Weapon foci are useful with particular character concepts.

No other foci are worth getting.

[Draco18s]

Ironically, I consider the Power focus a "must-have" for all magicians. Since the introduction of Runner's Companion with Restricted gear, every magician should have a Force 4 Power focus at character creation.

Funny, my current character doesn't have one. Mainly because I don't have the BP to get it (even if the GM is allowing 1 availability 18 item or 2 availability 16 items for free--I think those were the numbers, in any case, I only ended up with 1 avail. 14)

[Axl]

Restricted gear allows a single item up to availability 20.

Draco18s, your character is missing out on extra dice for Spellcasting and Summoning tests. These are tasks that magicians perform all the time.

[Dakka Dakka]

Funny, my current character doesn't have one. Mainly because I don't have the BP to get it (even if the GM is allowing 1 availability 18 item or 2 availability 16 items for free--I think those were the numbers, in any case, I only ended up with 1 avail. 14)

For my character it is a "should-have-gotten" item as well. With for free, do you mean without paying ¥ or without getting the restricted gear quality? The 1-3 BP for bonding shouldn't be that much of a problem, that's nothing compared to 8-24 Karma.

[pbangarth]

No other foci are worth getting.

Well. That settles that, then.

For a character who enters the world designed by an omniscient creator interested in min-maxing, you may be right.

For a character who enters an imperfect and variably supplied world, in the context of local needs and priorities, you may be mistaken. To a Zoroastrian mage, whose Mentor Spirit is Damoish Upamana (one whose purpose is ride at the side of Ahura Mazda and blast evil demons by the power of his words), a Banishing Focus might be the be-all and end-all.

[Draco18s]

Draco18s, your character is missing out on extra dice for Spellcasting and Summoning tests. These are tasks that magicians perform all the time.

I am aware. Unfortunately I don't have the points to spare. Hell, I haven't even soft-capped most of my 7 skills.

Fortunately I'm not really a mage (mystic adept and the magic is secondary).