Immunity does not make immune, Am I reading this right? Dev comment appreciated Options

[Dakka Dakka]

According to the description of the Immunity Power the critter gains hardened armor equal to twice its magic. From a balance perspective this makes sense in case of ItNW, but this also means that devil rats and hell hounds are not better off against toxins and fire than a human wearing good protective gear.
Is this the intention of the rules?

[Ol' Scratch]

Apparently.

I'm curious about Immunity to Age myself. I didn't even know Age had an attack, let alone one you needed armor against!

[Jack Kain]

According to the description of the Immunity Power the critter gains hardened armor equal to twice its magic. From a balance perspective this makes sense in case of ItNW, but this also means that devil rats and hell hounds are not better off against toxins and fire than a human wearing good protective gear.
Is this the intention of the rules?

Yeah looks like it, I guess it should be called 'resistance to' but immunity sounds better.

[Karoline]

Hmm, never thought about it before, but yeah, seems like they are only slightly resistant.

And age has its own entry that says you simply don't age any.

Interestingly enough though, since fire is an elemental attack, it lowers armor by half, and the general consensus is that AP works on immunity. This means that a critter immune to fire is really only immune to it as long as it does less than the critter's magic in damage.

I wonder if that was intended... Might have to start killing hellhounds with flamethrowers just to prove a point (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Jack Kain]

Immunity gives harden protection vs a given type of attack, that functions like harden armor. If a creature said it had an armor rating of 12 vs fire. Would anyone really say that fire halves that armor. No because if it was halved it wouldn't be an armor rating of 12 vs fire.

It maybe the general consensus that AP works on immunity is wrong.

[Kerrang]

Immunity gives harden protection vs a given type of attack, that functions like harden armor. If a creature said it had an armor rating of 12 vs fire. Would anyone really say that fire halves that armor. No because if it was halved it wouldn't be an armor rating of 12 vs fire.

It maybe the general consensus that AP works on immunity is wrong.

And here I thought this was all cleared up in the Spirit Combat thread (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

Oh well, unless and until we get clarification from a dev, I will go with the consensus.

[Jack Kain]

Would it make more sense if a creatures immunity fire was halved vs fire?

[Neraph]

Immunity gives harden protection vs a given type of attack, that functions like harden armor. If a creature said it had an armor rating of 12 vs fire. Would anyone really say that fire halves that armor. No because if it was halved it wouldn't be an armor rating of 12 vs fire.

It maybe the general consensus that AP works on immunity is wrong.

Actually, it would be armor 12 vs. fire, and fire has an AP of -1/2. So their armor of 12 turns into 6.

[Tymire]

So what you are saying Neraph is that the fire from a flame thrower would be considered a fire's fire? Like The Duke is a man's man right?

[Karoline]

So what you are saying Neraph is that the fire from a flame thrower would be considered a fire's fire? Like The Duke is a man's man right?

No, he is just saying that Immunity works like Hardened Armor, and Hardened Armor is affected by AP. Because of this, the armor would be halved by the fire's -half AP, regardless of the fact that the immunity is to fire.

[WyldKnight]

But that doesnt make a lick of sense. Fire shouldn't be an effective weapon against against fire armor. Has a dev commented at any point?

[Karoline]

But that doesnt make a lick of sense. Fire shouldn't be an effective weapon against against fire armor. Has a dev commented at any point?

Dev comments are rare to non-existant, and I've heard they've made no comments about immunity.

Immunity to fire is still useful against fire, but you just have to have a decent amount of it for it to work. It isn't any different than just doing Magic x 1 for the armor value and then ignoring the AP of fire.

[Karoline]

But that doesnt make a lick of sense. Fire shouldn't be an effective weapon against against fire armor. Has a dev commented at any point?

Dev comments are rare to non-existant, and I've heard they've made no comments about immunity.

Immunity to fire is still useful against fire, but you just have to have a decent amount of it for it to work. It isn't any different than just doing Magic x 1 for the armor value and then ignoring the AP of fire.

[Jack Kain]

Actually, it would be armor 12 vs. fire, and fire has an AP of -1/2. So their armor of 12 turns into 6.

HOW does that make any sense? it doesn't it makes no sense. Next you'll say that immunity to toxins does nothing if the toxin ignores armor(which most do) Immunity counts as "hardened protection" the protection acts like hardened armor. But the protection its self is NOT armor. Which is why they call it "hardened protection" instead of armor.
The fact the immunity power's paragraph is missing this line. (modified by Armor Penetration), but gives all the other necessary details for harden protection. Is evidence to me that immunity is not armor it just functions mechanically in a similar way.

But that doesnt make a lick of sense. Fire shouldn't be an effective weapon against against fire armor. Has a dev commented at any point?

When have the dev's ever commented on anything? I can not recall them EVER settling an rules argument on this forum.

[BRodda]

No, he is just saying that Immunity works like Hardened Armor, and Hardened Armor is affected by AP. Because of this, the armor would be halved by the fire's -half AP, regardless of the fact that the immunity is to fire.

How I think its supposed to work is that they are considered to have the Fire Resistant armor on top of the Immunity.

Per pg 327 SR4A

Fire Resistance: Fire-retardant, heat-resistant, and nonflammable materials protect the wearer against Fire damage (p. 164), adding its full rating to the armor value.

So stack that with the hardened armor that doubles the AV and its a little more believable as you double the armor value and then ignore the 1/2 AV stated with fire. That would make them 4 times more resistant to fire than your standard spirit.

[Jack Kain]

I think everyone should email info@shadowrun4.com and hopefully if a dozen people email them with the same question they'll actually bother to answer it.

[Ascalaphus]

Fire halving Fire Immune armor is silly; silently assuming that Fire Immune also gives you Fire Resistant is unclean.

I'd say that AP modifiers from whatever the immunity is against wouldn't apply. Electricity will certainly AP Fire Immune armor, but fire won't.

This brings us back to ItNW: I think it's clearest when you consider an Air spirit; why would AP bullets do anything against it? They'll just fly through.

Makes me wonder about the opposite: how does ItNW handle the +5AP of flechettes?

[Karoline]

Fire halving Fire Immune armor is silly; silently assuming that Fire Immune also gives you Fire Resistant is unclean.

I'd say that AP modifiers from whatever the immunity is against wouldn't apply. Electricity will certainly AP Fire Immune armor, but fire won't.

Except that electricity won't be affected by fire immunity, so that is fairly irrelevant.

This brings us back to ItNW: I think it's clearest when you consider an Air spirit; why would AP bullets do anything against it? They'll just fly through.

Except that air spirits aren't made of air, they are made of the exact same stuff as an earth spirit as a toxic spirit as a bug spirit.

[Ascalaphus]

Except that air spirits aren't made of air, they are made of the exact same stuff as an earth spirit as a toxic spirit as a bug spirit.

True. It seems that "protoplasm" doesn't like being injured physically, but it can take it fairly well. Oh, and I just read that form and function don't need to coincide with spirits, though it tends to with simple elementals.

Let's take it to it's logical end:
[Assume] All immunities function the same unless otherwise noted
[Assume] ItNW also implies immunity to normal elemental weapons, such as electricity; as long as they're not magical
[Assume] normal elemental damage halves ItNW armor
[Therefore] something covered by an immunity can still apply AP
[Therefore] fire can still AP against Fire Immunity

Alternatively:
A) Immunity is defined differently for different immunities; ItNW might be exceptional (best option)
or
B) ItNW cannot be APed by elements, nor by non-elemental ammo (spirits scary)
or
C) Elemental damage is not "normal", and ItNW doesn't apply elemental damage at all (SnS scary)

[Ancient History]

<~ Not a dev

Immunity to [XXX] was clarified somewhat in Running Wild. Before anyone has a hissy cow (never underestimate the power of the hissy cow) over the fact that immunity does not grant, well, immunity, please keep in mind that these rules are descended from previous editions, which worked in basically the same way.

Anyway, fire. Fire does not actually have any armor penetration per se, it does modify the Impact armor value (yes, I know that sounds like silly semantics, but I had to deal with a Flaming Stun spell once and these things can be important). Immunity to Fire gives the critter the equivalent of Hardened Armor (Magic x 2) against Fire damage. That means that if the modified Damage Value of the fire attack is less than the critter's Magic x 2, it doesn't even make a test for damage. If the fire DV is greater, then the Hardened Armor is treated as Ballistic/Impact armor and you can apply the normal modifier from fire damage.

Okay, that sounds like a bunch of glass ninja stuff, so let's look at an example.

Zippo the fire rat has Magic 3 and Immunity to Fire. That means against fire damage, he has effective Hardened Armor 6. Running around in the volcanic vent that is his home, which normally deals 3 DV fire damage per turn, Zippo doesn't burn at all. If some nasty shaman throws a Force 7 Fireball at him, however, Zippo is in trouble, because at 7 DV it exceeds his (Magic x 2). Zippo still has an effective Impact Armor 3 (Magic x 2 / 2) when resisting the 7 DV attack, however.

[Karoline]

Well, A is semi-correct. The different immunities are defined separately, but the hardened armor thing falls under all immunities, not under ItNW. I don't see any real problems with your initial logic.

There isn't any particular reason that immunity to fire should be more effective against fire than ItNW. They are essentially the same, but ItF is just a more limited version.

[Karoline]

<~ Not a dev

Immunity to [XXX] was clarified somewhat in Running Wild. Before anyone has a hissy cow (never underestimate the power of the hissy cow) over the fact that immunity does not grant, well, immunity, please keep in mind that these rules are descended from previous editions, which worked in basically the same way.

Anyway, fire. Fire does not actually have any armor penetration per se, it does modify the Impact armor value (yes, I know that sounds like silly semantics, but I had to deal with a Flaming Stun spell once and these things can be important). Immunity to Fire gives the critter the equivalent of Hardened Armor (Magic x 2) against Fire damage. That means that if the modified Damage Value of the fire attack is less than the critter's Magic x 2, it doesn't even make a test for damage. If the fire DV is greater, then the Hardened Armor is treated as Ballistic/Impact armor and you can apply the normal modifier from fire damage.

Okay, that sounds like a bunch of glass ninja stuff, so let's look at an example.

Zippo the fire rat has Magic 3 and Immunity to Fire. That means against fire damage, he has effective Hardened Armor 6. Running around in the volcanic vent that is his home, which normally deals 3 DV fire damage per turn, Zippo doesn't burn at all. If some nasty shaman throws a Force 7 Fireball at him, however, Zippo is in trouble, because at 7 DV it exceeds his (Magic x 2). Zippo still has an effective Impact Armor 3 (Magic x 2 / 2) when resisting the 7 DV attack, however.

That argument would mean that no form of AP would affect ItNW though. Because AP usually reduces the ballistic value of armor (Which ItNW doesn't have when doing the check to see if damage is done or not by your logic). This also means fire/electricity would be equally useless against ItNW as anything else, because once again, the half armor doesn't come into affect until after damage has been determined (Once again, by the way you've put things)

[Ascalaphus]

That argument would mean that no form of AP would affect ItNW though. Because AP usually reduces the ballistic value of armor (Which ItNW doesn't have when doing the check to see if damage is done or not by your logic). This also means fire/electricity would be equally useless against ItNW as anything else, because once again, the half armor doesn't come into affect until after damage has been determined (Once again, by the way you've put things)

Well, it's a simple rule, that's good. It makes spirits really really scary though...

[Murrdox]

Ancient History might not be a dev... but he's pretty close on a lot of issues.

I'm going to have to take a closer look at my Running Wild book to see specifically what he's getting at, but his explanation makes perfect sense to me.

IMO, spirits SHOULD be scary. Those AP rounds will help you bypass the armor IF you pass the damage threshold, but they won't help you pass the threshold in the first place.

Good clarification.

[Jack Kain]

Well, A is semi-correct. The different immunities are defined separately, but the hardened armor thing falls under all immunities, not under ItNW. I don't see any real problems with your initial logic.

There isn't any particular reason that immunity to fire should be more effective against fire than ItNW. They are essentially the same, but ItF is just a more limited version.

Because its immunity to fire, not immunity to normal weapons. Saying that immunity is halved vs elements is kind of a big thing to leave out.

Now everyone is ignoring how Immunity is actually worded.

The critter gains an “Armor rating” equal to twice its Magic against that damage. This Immunity Armor is treated as “hardened” protection (see Hardened Armor above), meaning that if the Damage Value does not exceed the Armor, then the attack automatically does no damage.

Notice how the armor rating is in quotes, if it was simply armor it wouldn't be it quotes. It says the immunity armor is treated as "hardened" protection" not as hardened armor. They go out of there way to say that immunity functions like armor but that is is not actually armor. They include absolutely everything from the functions of the harden armor paragraph except the line about AP.
It loos fairly clear to me that immunity functions like armor, but is not actually armor.