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Dakka Dakka
According to the description of the Immunity Power the critter gains hardened armor equal to twice its magic. From a balance perspective this makes sense in case of ItNW, but this also means that devil rats and hell hounds are not better off against toxins and fire than a human wearing good protective gear.
Is this the intention of the rules?
Ol' Scratch
Apparently.

I'm curious about Immunity to Age myself. I didn't even know Age had an attack, let alone one you needed armor against!
Jack Kain
QUOTE (Dakka Dakka @ Dec 8 2009, 03:11 PM) *
According to the description of the Immunity Power the critter gains hardened armor equal to twice its magic. From a balance perspective this makes sense in case of ItNW, but this also means that devil rats and hell hounds are not better off against toxins and fire than a human wearing good protective gear.
Is this the intention of the rules?


Yeah looks like it, I guess it should be called 'resistance to' but immunity sounds better.
Karoline
Hmm, never thought about it before, but yeah, seems like they are only slightly resistant.

And age has its own entry that says you simply don't age any.

Interestingly enough though, since fire is an elemental attack, it lowers armor by half, and the general consensus is that AP works on immunity. This means that a critter immune to fire is really only immune to it as long as it does less than the critter's magic in damage.

I wonder if that was intended... Might have to start killing hellhounds with flamethrowers just to prove a point wink.gif
Jack Kain
Immunity gives harden protection vs a given type of attack, that functions like harden armor. If a creature said it had an armor rating of 12 vs fire. Would anyone really say that fire halves that armor. No because if it was halved it wouldn't be an armor rating of 12 vs fire.

It maybe the general consensus that AP works on immunity is wrong.
Kerrang
QUOTE (Jack Kain @ Dec 8 2009, 04:19 PM) *
Immunity gives harden protection vs a given type of attack, that functions like harden armor. If a creature said it had an armor rating of 12 vs fire. Would anyone really say that fire halves that armor. No because if it was halved it wouldn't be an armor rating of 12 vs fire.

It maybe the general consensus that AP works on immunity is wrong.


And here I thought this was all cleared up in the Spirit Combat thread wobble.gif

Oh well, unless and until we get clarification from a dev, I will go with the consensus.
Jack Kain
Would it make more sense if a creatures immunity fire was halved vs fire?
Neraph
QUOTE (Jack Kain @ Dec 8 2009, 04:19 PM) *
Immunity gives harden protection vs a given type of attack, that functions like harden armor. If a creature said it had an armor rating of 12 vs fire. Would anyone really say that fire halves that armor. No because if it was halved it wouldn't be an armor rating of 12 vs fire.

It maybe the general consensus that AP works on immunity is wrong.

Actually, it would be armor 12 vs. fire, and fire has an AP of -1/2. So their armor of 12 turns into 6.
Tymire
So what you are saying Neraph is that the fire from a flame thrower would be considered a fire's fire? Like The Duke is a man's man right?
Karoline
QUOTE (Tymire @ Dec 8 2009, 05:57 PM) *
So what you are saying Neraph is that the fire from a flame thrower would be considered a fire's fire? Like The Duke is a man's man right?


No, he is just saying that Immunity works like Hardened Armor, and Hardened Armor is affected by AP. Because of this, the armor would be halved by the fire's -half AP, regardless of the fact that the immunity is to fire.
WyldKnight
But that doesnt make a lick of sense. Fire shouldn't be an effective weapon against against fire armor. Has a dev commented at any point?
Karoline
QUOTE (WyldKnight @ Dec 8 2009, 06:19 PM) *
But that doesnt make a lick of sense. Fire shouldn't be an effective weapon against against fire armor. Has a dev commented at any point?


Dev comments are rare to non-existant, and I've heard they've made no comments about immunity.

Immunity to fire is still useful against fire, but you just have to have a decent amount of it for it to work. It isn't any different than just doing Magic x 1 for the armor value and then ignoring the AP of fire.
Karoline
QUOTE (WyldKnight @ Dec 8 2009, 06:19 PM) *
But that doesnt make a lick of sense. Fire shouldn't be an effective weapon against against fire armor. Has a dev commented at any point?


Dev comments are rare to non-existant, and I've heard they've made no comments about immunity.

Immunity to fire is still useful against fire, but you just have to have a decent amount of it for it to work. It isn't any different than just doing Magic x 1 for the armor value and then ignoring the AP of fire.
Jack Kain
QUOTE (Neraph @ Dec 8 2009, 04:51 PM) *
Actually, it would be armor 12 vs. fire, and fire has an AP of -1/2. So their armor of 12 turns into 6.


HOW does that make any sense? it doesn't it makes no sense. Next you'll say that immunity to toxins does nothing if the toxin ignores armor(which most do) Immunity counts as "hardened protection" the protection acts like hardened armor. But the protection its self is NOT armor. Which is why they call it "hardened protection" instead of armor.
The fact the immunity power's paragraph is missing this line. (modified by Armor Penetration), but gives all the other necessary details for harden protection. Is evidence to me that immunity is not armor it just functions mechanically in a similar way.


QUOTE (WyldKnight @ Dec 8 2009, 05:19 PM) *
But that doesnt make a lick of sense. Fire shouldn't be an effective weapon against against fire armor. Has a dev commented at any point?

When have the dev's ever commented on anything? I can not recall them EVER settling an rules argument on this forum.


BRodda
QUOTE (Karoline @ Dec 8 2009, 06:08 PM) *
No, he is just saying that Immunity works like Hardened Armor, and Hardened Armor is affected by AP. Because of this, the armor would be halved by the fire's -half AP, regardless of the fact that the immunity is to fire.


How I think its supposed to work is that they are considered to have the Fire Resistant armor on top of the Immunity.

Per pg 327 SR4A

QUOTE
Fire Resistance: Fire-retardant, heat-resistant, and nonflammable materials protect the wearer against Fire damage (p. 164), adding its full rating to the armor value.


So stack that with the hardened armor that doubles the AV and its a little more believable as you double the armor value and then ignore the 1/2 AV stated with fire. That would make them 4 times more resistant to fire than your standard spirit.
Jack Kain
I think everyone should email info@shadowrun4.com and hopefully if a dozen people email them with the same question they'll actually bother to answer it.
Ascalaphus
Fire halving Fire Immune armor is silly; silently assuming that Fire Immune also gives you Fire Resistant is unclean.

I'd say that AP modifiers from whatever the immunity is against wouldn't apply. Electricity will certainly AP Fire Immune armor, but fire won't.

This brings us back to ItNW: I think it's clearest when you consider an Air spirit; why would AP bullets do anything against it? They'll just fly through.

Makes me wonder about the opposite: how does ItNW handle the +5AP of flechettes?
Karoline
QUOTE (Ascalaphus @ Dec 8 2009, 07:24 PM) *
Fire halving Fire Immune armor is silly; silently assuming that Fire Immune also gives you Fire Resistant is unclean.

I'd say that AP modifiers from whatever the immunity is against wouldn't apply. Electricity will certainly AP Fire Immune armor, but fire won't.

Except that electricity won't be affected by fire immunity, so that is fairly irrelevant.
QUOTE
This brings us back to ItNW: I think it's clearest when you consider an Air spirit; why would AP bullets do anything against it? They'll just fly through.


Except that air spirits aren't made of air, they are made of the exact same stuff as an earth spirit as a toxic spirit as a bug spirit.
Ascalaphus
QUOTE
Except that air spirits aren't made of air, they are made of the exact same stuff as an earth spirit as a toxic spirit as a bug spirit.


True. It seems that "protoplasm" doesn't like being injured physically, but it can take it fairly well. Oh, and I just read that form and function don't need to coincide with spirits, though it tends to with simple elementals.

Let's take it to it's logical end:
[Assume] All immunities function the same unless otherwise noted
[Assume] ItNW also implies immunity to normal elemental weapons, such as electricity; as long as they're not magical
[Assume] normal elemental damage halves ItNW armor
[Therefore] something covered by an immunity can still apply AP
[Therefore] fire can still AP against Fire Immunity

Alternatively:
A) Immunity is defined differently for different immunities; ItNW might be exceptional (best option)
or
B) ItNW cannot be APed by elements, nor by non-elemental ammo (spirits scary)
or
C) Elemental damage is not "normal", and ItNW doesn't apply elemental damage at all (SnS scary)
Ancient History
<~ Not a dev

Immunity to [XXX] was clarified somewhat in Running Wild. Before anyone has a hissy cow (never underestimate the power of the hissy cow) over the fact that immunity does not grant, well, immunity, please keep in mind that these rules are descended from previous editions, which worked in basically the same way.

Anyway, fire. Fire does not actually have any armor penetration per se, it does modify the Impact armor value (yes, I know that sounds like silly semantics, but I had to deal with a Flaming Stun spell once and these things can be important). Immunity to Fire gives the critter the equivalent of Hardened Armor (Magic x 2) against Fire damage. That means that if the modified Damage Value of the fire attack is less than the critter's Magic x 2, it doesn't even make a test for damage. If the fire DV is greater, then the Hardened Armor is treated as Ballistic/Impact armor and you can apply the normal modifier from fire damage.

Okay, that sounds like a bunch of glass ninja stuff, so let's look at an example.

Zippo the fire rat has Magic 3 and Immunity to Fire. That means against fire damage, he has effective Hardened Armor 6. Running around in the volcanic vent that is his home, which normally deals 3 DV fire damage per turn, Zippo doesn't burn at all. If some nasty shaman throws a Force 7 Fireball at him, however, Zippo is in trouble, because at 7 DV it exceeds his (Magic x 2). Zippo still has an effective Impact Armor 3 (Magic x 2 / 2) when resisting the 7 DV attack, however.
Karoline
Well, A is semi-correct. The different immunities are defined separately, but the hardened armor thing falls under all immunities, not under ItNW. I don't see any real problems with your initial logic.

There isn't any particular reason that immunity to fire should be more effective against fire than ItNW. They are essentially the same, but ItF is just a more limited version.
Karoline
QUOTE (Ancient History @ Dec 8 2009, 07:55 PM) *
<~ Not a dev

Immunity to [XXX] was clarified somewhat in Running Wild. Before anyone has a hissy cow (never underestimate the power of the hissy cow) over the fact that immunity does not grant, well, immunity, please keep in mind that these rules are descended from previous editions, which worked in basically the same way.

Anyway, fire. Fire does not actually have any armor penetration per se, it does modify the Impact armor value (yes, I know that sounds like silly semantics, but I had to deal with a Flaming Stun spell once and these things can be important). Immunity to Fire gives the critter the equivalent of Hardened Armor (Magic x 2) against Fire damage. That means that if the modified Damage Value of the fire attack is less than the critter's Magic x 2, it doesn't even make a test for damage. If the fire DV is greater, then the Hardened Armor is treated as Ballistic/Impact armor and you can apply the normal modifier from fire damage.

Okay, that sounds like a bunch of glass ninja stuff, so let's look at an example.

Zippo the fire rat has Magic 3 and Immunity to Fire. That means against fire damage, he has effective Hardened Armor 6. Running around in the volcanic vent that is his home, which normally deals 3 DV fire damage per turn, Zippo doesn't burn at all. If some nasty shaman throws a Force 7 Fireball at him, however, Zippo is in trouble, because at 7 DV it exceeds his (Magic x 2). Zippo still has an effective Impact Armor 3 (Magic x 2 / 2) when resisting the 7 DV attack, however.


That argument would mean that no form of AP would affect ItNW though. Because AP usually reduces the ballistic value of armor (Which ItNW doesn't have when doing the check to see if damage is done or not by your logic). This also means fire/electricity would be equally useless against ItNW as anything else, because once again, the half armor doesn't come into affect until after damage has been determined (Once again, by the way you've put things)
Ascalaphus
QUOTE (Karoline @ Dec 9 2009, 02:00 AM) *
That argument would mean that no form of AP would affect ItNW though. Because AP usually reduces the ballistic value of armor (Which ItNW doesn't have when doing the check to see if damage is done or not by your logic). This also means fire/electricity would be equally useless against ItNW as anything else, because once again, the half armor doesn't come into affect until after damage has been determined (Once again, by the way you've put things)


Well, it's a simple rule, that's good. It makes spirits really really scary though...
Murrdox
Ancient History might not be a dev... but he's pretty close on a lot of issues.

I'm going to have to take a closer look at my Running Wild book to see specifically what he's getting at, but his explanation makes perfect sense to me.

IMO, spirits SHOULD be scary. Those AP rounds will help you bypass the armor IF you pass the damage threshold, but they won't help you pass the threshold in the first place.

Good clarification.
Jack Kain
QUOTE (Karoline @ Dec 8 2009, 06:56 PM) *
Well, A is semi-correct. The different immunities are defined separately, but the hardened armor thing falls under all immunities, not under ItNW. I don't see any real problems with your initial logic.

There isn't any particular reason that immunity to fire should be more effective against fire than ItNW. They are essentially the same, but ItF is just a more limited version.


Because its immunity to fire, not immunity to normal weapons. Saying that immunity is halved vs elements is kind of a big thing to leave out.

Now everyone is ignoring how Immunity is actually worded.
QUOTE
The critter gains an “Armor rating” equal to twice its Magic against that damage. This Immunity Armor is treated as “hardened” protection (see Hardened Armor above), meaning that if the Damage Value does not exceed the Armor, then the attack automatically does no damage.


Notice how the armor rating is in quotes, if it was simply armor it wouldn't be it quotes. It says the immunity armor is treated as "hardened" protection" not as hardened armor. They go out of there way to say that immunity functions like armor but that is is not actually armor. They include absolutely everything from the functions of the harden armor paragraph except the line about AP.
It loos fairly clear to me that immunity functions like armor, but is not actually armor.

Karoline
QUOTE (Murrdox @ Dec 8 2009, 08:22 PM) *
IMO, spirits SHOULD be scary. Those AP rounds will help you bypass the armor IF you pass the damage threshold, but they won't help you pass the threshold in the first place.


The problem is that this quickly moves spirits from the realm of scary to the realm of "Oh, they have a spirit? Well, we may as well just pack up and go home."

The highest damage weapon in the game is, what? 10P (Barette with ex-ex ammo). This means that even with the most powerful weapon in the game (Not counting vehicle weapons and explosives and assault cannons) you still need 3 net hits to do damage to a (fairly common) F6 spirit. Most weapons are way below that damage rating, somewhere in the 7 range, which would require 6 net hits to even put a nick on a F6 spirit.

This also creates a big problem of you either don't harm the spirit at all, or you destroy it in one hit (Because if you're doing 13+ damage, the spirit is likely going to be in sorry shape at best)

Mages really don't need a power boost, and their main summoning fodder being immune to non-mages seems like a rather massive power boost to me.
Ascalaphus
QUOTE (Jack Kain @ Dec 9 2009, 02:22 AM) *
Because its immunity to fire, not immunity to normal weapons. Saying that immunity is halved vs elements is kind of a big thing to leave out.

Now everyone is ignoring how Immunity is actually worded.


Notice how the armor rating is in quotes, if it was simply armor it wouldn't be it quotes. It says the immunity armor is treated as "hardened" protection" not as hardened armor. They go out of there way to say that immunity functions like armor but that is is not actually armor. They include absolutely everything from the functions of the harden armor paragraph except the line about AP.
It looks fairly clear to me that immunity functions like armor, but is not actually armor.


I'm looking at it..

QUOTE
Hardened Armor is even tougher than normal armor. If the modified Damage Value of an attack does not exceed the Armor rating (modified by Armor Penetration), then it bounces harmlessly off the critter; don’t even bother to make a Damage Resistance Test. Otherwise, Hardened Armor provides both Ballistic and Impact armor equal to its rating.


So hardened armor is treated exactly like armor, if it's rating is exceeded.

QUOTE
A critter with Immunity has an enhanced resistance to a certain type of attack or affliction. The critter gains an “Armor rating” equal to twice its Magic against that damage. This Immunity Armor is treated as “hardened” protection (see Hardened Armor above), meaning that if the Damage Value does not exceed the Armor, then the attack automatically does no damage.


Immunity is treated as Hardened Armor, which is treated as Armor. Therefore, a bypassed Immunity is still functioning as armor. The quotes merely show that the spirit is not wearing armor, but is protected by something that functions the same way as (hardened) armor. It is protected "as if" by armor.
Ascalaphus
QUOTE (Karoline @ Dec 9 2009, 02:33 AM) *
The problem is that this quickly moves spirits from the realm of scary to the realm of "Oh, they have a spirit? Well, we may as well just pack up and go home."


Suddenly melee adepts aren't so useless anymore. Power foci or Critical Strike anyone?

I remember when in my first game, we were confronted by an air elemental that sucked the breath from our lungs. We couldn't do anything against it; it was really scary. It took our mage about three tries to banish it - rather close!
Ol' Scratch
QUOTE (Ascalaphus @ Dec 8 2009, 07:44 PM) *
Suddenly melee adepts aren't so useless anymore. Power foci or Critical Strike anyone?

That's poor game design, though. Any time you -have- to have a specific type of character in the game to have any chance at all of success, that's bad design.

The game really needed a new armor mechanic, not one that was either impossible-to-hurt or barely-noticed-because-the-attack-was-too-awesome. Something that could reliably lower the strnegth of attack without rendering them immune would have been ideal. Where you have to do like ten times as much damage, but each of those attacks still do damage. Toss that in with some regeneration and you can get the same net effect, but people can have a chance to overpower them without relying on ridiculous power levels or specific character types with specific gear/powers to do so.
Karoline
QUOTE (Ascalaphus @ Dec 8 2009, 08:44 PM) *
Suddenly melee adepts aren't so useless anymore. Power foci or Critical Strike anyone?

I remember when in my first game, we were confronted by an air elemental that sucked the breath from our lungs. We couldn't do anything against it; it was really scary. It took our mage about three tries to banish it - rather close!


The problem is that the mage could have fairly easily summoned a spirit that was just as powerful. This makes mages able to take out an infinite number of mundane enemies with a single good spirit. This means a huge shift in power towards the awakened. Spirits are immune to anything but awakened, and against awakened they're even less scary than a rent-a-cop (No armor) And of course rent-a-cops aren't scary to anyone, awakened or mundane.

You essentially create a threat that can only be dealt with by awakened. The problem to that is that there is (virtually) no threat that a mundane can deal with that an awakened can't.
Draco18s
QUOTE (Ascalaphus @ Dec 8 2009, 08:04 PM) *
Well, it's a simple rule, that's good. It makes spirits really really scary though...


Very, very freaking scary. A force 6 spirit would need to take 13 modified damage before it needs to make a damage resistance test, and 13 modified damage is pretty damn hard to come by (shy of explosives, which have their own problems getting the max damage on a target). And a force 8 spirit moves above the realm of even explosives.
Ascalaphus
It's funny, too. Before this debate, I was under the impression that the Hardened Armor were just armor dice that automatically scored hits, that's all. Now it's an all-or-nothing affair; if you attack does enough damage to register, all the hardened armor dice need to be rolled.

Maybe my previous reading wasn't so bad; HA as just automatic hits against their intended target, but AP applicable. It makes it more useful against the uber-attacks, but gives minor attacks with AP a chance.
Murrdox
QUOTE (Draco18s @ Dec 8 2009, 09:00 PM) *
Very, very freaking scary. A force 6 spirit would need to take 13 modified damage before it needs to make a damage resistance test, and 13 modified damage is pretty damn hard to come by (shy of explosives, which have their own problems getting the max damage on a target). And a force 8 spirit moves above the realm of even explosives.


I dunno, in my game that's not so bad. Force 6 Spirits and above aren't very common. In my games shamans routinely summon spirits that are at their Magic level or lower. Most common spirits are between 3-5, which put them easily in the realm of what's able to be harmed by a mundane weapon.

Using a normal AK-97 Assault Rifle with a Long Narrow Burst can thus boost your damage value to 11P before calculating any net hits, putting it easily in the realm of being able to harm a Force 5 or 6 spirit.

In my game at least, if you're going up against Force 7 or above Spirits and you don't have any magical assets on your side to protect you.... you deserve everything that's coming to you.

It sounds like a lot of other GMs toss around force 8 or 9 spirits a lot more readily than I do.
Karoline
QUOTE (Murrdox @ Dec 8 2009, 09:50 PM) *
I dunno, in my game that's not so bad. Force 6 Spirits and above aren't very common. In my games shamans routinely summon spirits that are at their Magic level or lower. Most common spirits are between 3-5, which put them easily in the realm of what's able to be harmed by a mundane weapon.

Using a normal AK-97 Assault Rifle with a Long Narrow Burst can thus boost your damage value to 11P before calculating any net hits, putting it easily in the realm of being able to harm a Force 5 or 6 spirit.

In my game at least, if you're going up against Force 7 or above Spirits and you don't have any magical assets on your side to protect you.... you deserve everything that's coming to you.

It sounds like a lot of other GMs toss around force 8 or 9 spirits a lot more readily than I do.


Except that burst damage doesn't count when being compared to armor to see what kind of damage it does (And by extension, if it does damage at all against hardened)

So yeah, even 11+ for fighting off a force 5 spirit is fairly hard if people aren't packing sniper rifles or assault cannons
AngelisStorm
QUOTE (Karoline @ Dec 8 2009, 09:54 PM) *
The problem is that the mage could have fairly easily summoned a spirit that was just as powerful. This makes mages able to take out an infinite number of mundane enemies with a single good spirit. This means a huge shift in power towards the awakened. Spirits are immune to anything but awakened, and against awakened they're even less scary than a rent-a-cop (No armor) And of course rent-a-cops aren't scary to anyone, awakened or mundane.

You essentially create a threat that can only be dealt with by awakened. The problem to that is that there is (virtually) no threat that a mundane can deal with that an awakened can't.



AH HA! THAT is how the NAN came into existance / Native Americans won against a huge majority. biggrin.gif
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Dr. Funkenstein @ Dec 8 2009, 06:53 PM) *
That's poor game design, though. Any time you -have- to have a specific type of character in the game to have any chance at all of success, that's bad design.

The game really needed a new armor mechanic, not one that was either impossible-to-hurt or barely-noticed-because-the-attack-was-too-awesome. Something that could reliably lower the strnegth of attack without rendering them immune would have been ideal. Where you have to do like ten times as much damage, but each of those attacks still do damage. Toss that in with some regeneration and you can get the same net effect, but people can have a chance to overpower them without relying on ridiculous power levels or specific character types with specific gear/powers to do so.



They had that in previous editions, and everyone wound up soaking "2's" (Armor reduced the target to resist directly)... I really hated that myself...

Keep the Faith
MikeKozar
I like History's reading of it, if for no reason other then the Rule of Cool. I love the image of a monster soaking round after round of small arms fire and laughing it off, until somebody brings his weakness into play. Supernatural uses this trope a lot, with ghosts that ignore normal weapons entirely but get dissipated (although not destroyed) by cold iron, meaning a cheap fireplace poker or a nailbomb will do what an uzi won't - buy you time to get something that will finish it. The fact that a threshold can be exceeded is cool too - it might be technically immune to fire damage, but if you get it to walk into the middle of a fuel-air bomb, you're going to mess it up.

Anyway, I agree that this makes F6 spirits a pain to deal with, but that's really as it should be. I might start offering absurdly expensive ammo that doesn't count as a normal weapon for dealing with them - The vampire-hunter gimmick of bullets cast from the melted-down silver cross of a cathedral, or Hellboy's Whoppers (White Oak, Holy Water, Garlic AND Silver-tipped bullets...), or just make them Orichalcum-tipped. If the PCs want to spend 1,000Y+ per round, I think there's precedent.

I do agree that spirit summoning is a nightmare. I'm tempted to set limits on how often they can be summoned - currently it looks like a skilled Summoner with a good Focus could send an elemental out to fight intruders, know when it gets destroyed, and summon another one in 3 seconds. The only drawbacks I find to that are the vauge threats of 'Spirit Bane'. Maybe I'm missing something, but it seems like a Wage Mage in a bunker could roll right over any team given enough time.
Ancient History
QUOTE (Karoline @ Dec 9 2009, 01:00 AM) *
That argument would mean that no form of AP would affect ItNW though. Because AP usually reduces the ballistic value of armor (Which ItNW doesn't have when doing the check to see if damage is done or not by your logic).

Not quite true, because Hardened Armor specifically allows Armor Penetration. My argument with fire is that while it does modify armor, it does not specifically have Armor Penetration.

QUOTE
This also means fire/electricity would be equally useless against ItNW as anything else, because once again, the half armor doesn't come into affect until after damage has been determined (Once again, by the way you've put things)

That's a critter of a different stripe. You can't hit a spirit with stick'n'shock and expect it to explode, no. Mundane fire will discomfit a water spirit but not an earth spirit. Of course, we'll have to see what errata does to that.
Karoline
QUOTE (MikeKozar @ Dec 8 2009, 10:20 PM) *
Maybe I'm missing something, but it seems like a Wage Mage in a bunker could roll right over any team given enough time.


Basically, yeah, which is my point. Now granted even with rules as they are generally taken (With AP working on ItNW) a mage can sit in a bunker and send out a bunch of spirits, but a single spirit isn't going to be much threat, but if the spirit is invincible, then you have huge problems with mage balance.
hahnsoo
QUOTE (Karoline @ Dec 8 2009, 10:53 PM) *
Except that burst damage doesn't count when being compared to armor to see what kind of damage it does (And by extension, if it does damage at all against hardened)

So yeah, even 11+ for fighting off a force 5 spirit is fairly hard if people aren't packing sniper rifles or assault cannons
While standard Narrow Burst damage is listed in SR4A as having this stipulation ("Note that this DV modifier does not apply when comparing the DV to the armor rating"), the Narrow Long Burst and Full Burst rules don't have that limitation by RAW. I know, this is nit-picking, and the devs probably meant to extend that limitation to Narrow Long Bursts and Full Bursts, too, but there's no indication that I can see so far (I'm still looking).

In our group, we haven't been using that rule for any bursts, actually. We've been simply converting the modified DV (with additional damage from a Narrow Burst) to determine if Armor/Hardened armor applies. I might want to bring that up with the GM sometime...

I miss Staging damage. frown.gif
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (hahnsoo @ Dec 8 2009, 08:33 PM) *
While standard Narrow Burst damage is listed in SR4A as having this stipulation ("Note that this DV modifier does not apply when comparing the DV to the armor rating"), the Narrow Long Burst and Full Burst rules don't have that limitation by RAW. I know, this is nit-picking, and the devs probably meant to extend that limitation to Narrow Long Bursts and Full Bursts, too, but there's no indication that I can see so far (I'm still looking).

In our group, we haven't been using that rule for any bursts, actually. We've been simply converting the modified DV (with additional damage from a Narrow Burst) to determine if Armor/Hardened armor applies. I might want to bring that up with the GM sometime...

I miss Staging damage. frown.gif



First... The relevant text is not included in the descriptions for Long or Full bursts, because they are Bursts and that text has already been included once... redundancy for "Completeness" sake just wastes word count... the fact that it is already included in the rules for Narrow Bursts would also allow it to be applied to any other type of burst that is Narrow (or Full) and still have the same effect. But it looks like you realize that...

Second... Damage DOES stage, that is what net hits are for... it just does so in a different manner (The mechanics are a bit different)...

Keep the Faith
hahnsoo
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Dec 8 2009, 11:39 PM) *
First... The relevant text is not included in the descriptions for Long or Full bursts, because they are Bursts and that text has already been included once... redundancy for "Completeness" sake just wastes word count... the fact that it is already included in the rules for Narrow Bursts would also allow it to be applied to any other type of burst that is Narrow (or Full) and still have the same effect. But it looks like you realize that...

Second... Damage DOES stage, that is what net hits are for... it just does so in a different manner (The mechanics are a bit different)...
It does not Stage. Staging actually refers to a non-linear increase/decrease in damage, as exists in several games (older editions of Shadowrun). It goes up and down linearly based on the magnitude of success in SR4. This is semantics, though, and doesn't need to be argued out as I was directly referring to the older editions of Shadowrun at the time of my comment. I really should have said "I miss staging to Deadly Damage in older SRs".

The text has been included once, but ONLY under Narrow Bursts and it is specific to that section. It's not in the general listing of Burst Fire at all. In fact, as it is written, it seems to only apply to Narrow Bursts. It's an oversight on the developer's part. At the very least, they should have included that in the ARMOR section and not under a subheading of "Narrow Burst". If you make the inference from that, you can also make an inference that ANY +DV modifier aside from hits from attack tests (which is explicitly stated in all of the examples) does not count for the purposes of exceeding Armor ratings (hardened or not). I'm still looking for another example in the rules so that the devs may redeem themselves, but this is just plain shoddy.

I am nit-picking and rules lawyering, yes. As I said before, we don't use these particular rules in our games anyway, and it's not like I'm going around telling people to "abuse all loopholes, hur hur!". But there is no way that anyone can say for certain that the devs really meant for the Narrow Burst DV to not apply and that this sub-section applies to the rest of the Bursts.
Murrdox
QUOTE (Karoline @ Dec 8 2009, 09:53 PM) *
Except that burst damage doesn't count when being compared to armor to see what kind of damage it does (And by extension, if it does damage at all against hardened)

So yeah, even 11+ for fighting off a force 5 spirit is fairly hard if people aren't packing sniper rifles or assault cannons


???

On p148 of SR4, it says "If the modified DV of an attack causing Physical damage does not exceed the AP-modified armor rating, then the attack will cause Stun damage instead".

In my book, the +5 DV for a narrow burst is a "modifier", so I don't see where you're getting the fact that this shouldn't apply. Please correct me if I'm missing something. If it didn't apply, I would expect that it would say "unmodified DV of an attack" here.

- Nevermind, I now see on p143 where it says that under the Narrow Burst description. I never noticed that before. I guess that would make Spirits much more difficult.

Hmmm... now I'm a bit undecided on what is best for this situation...
Ol' Scratch
SR4A p. 150, Ranged Combat Summary table: "Autofire does not count when comparing the modified DV to the modified Armor."

They like hiding important rules like that. Heaven forbid they actually include it in the text. smile.gif
hahnsoo
QUOTE (Dr. Funkenstein @ Dec 8 2009, 11:53 PM) *
SR4A p. 150, Ranged Combat Summary table: "Autofire does not count when comparing the modified DV to the modified Armor."
Wewt! Thanks for that, Dr. Funkenstein. I was looking for a way to solve this conundrum. The rules don't explicitly say this for anything other than Narrow Bursts.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (hahnsoo @ Dec 8 2009, 08:46 PM) *
It does not Stage. Staging actually refers to a non-linear increase/decrease in damage, as exists in several games (older editions of Shadowrun). It goes up and down linearly based on the magnitude of success in SR4. This is semantics, though, and doesn't need to be argued out as I was directly referring to the older editions of Shadowrun at the time of my comment. I really should have said "I miss staging to Deadly Damage in older SRs".

The text has been included once, but ONLY under Narrow Bursts and it is specific to that section. It's not in the general listing of Burst Fire at all. In fact, as it is written, it seems to only apply to Narrow Bursts. It's an oversight on the developer's part. At the very least, they should have included that in the ARMOR section and not under a subheading of "Narrow Burst". If you make the inference from that, you can also make an inference that ANY +DV modifier aside from hits from attack tests (which is explicitly stated in all of the examples) does not count for the purposes of exceeding Armor ratings (hardened or not). I'm still looking for another example in the rules so that the devs may redeem themselves, but this is just plain shoddy.

I am nit-picking and rules lawyering, yes. As I said before, we don't use these particular rules in our games anyway, and it's not like I'm going around telling people to "abuse all loopholes, hur hur!". But there is no way that anyone can say for certain that the devs really meant for the Narrow Burst DV to not apply and that this sub-section applies to the rest of the Bursts.


I can see that... No problems... and truth be told, it was indeed a nit-pik... I tend to believe that the rules could have been more exact, but that really would have required a highly increased page count... and they cuold (should) have put that relevant text in teh General "Burst" category, but I think that they put it in the Narrow Burst area bacause Wide Bursts Don't add damage, and Narrow Bursts Do), so it would not really have applied to them anyway... just my opinion, but there it is...

Keep the Faith
Ascalaphus
Manatech bullets that can damage spirits are certainly feasible in the 6th world. Plastics made from processed awakened plants or something. Likely to be very hard to make through. And they'd show up to astral sight.
AngelisStorm
Yes, there are ways to make "mana" bullets, and for the most part they aren't cost effective. There is at least one huge thread on the subject from months back.
Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (Ascalaphus @ Dec 9 2009, 03:41 AM) *
So hardened armor is treated exactly like armor, if it's rating is exceeded.

If it's rating, modified by AP, is exceeded, at the very least.
Of course, the 'otherwise' does not need to be the if-else-case, but can be the in-other-respect extension. In which case the normal rules apply even to the first sentence, and modified damage is compared to modified armor.

That's why Gauss Weapons, even with the former interpretation, will finish hardened Critters and Spirits, as they halve all armor but smart armor first, then apply the AP.
Of course, all Electro-Weapons and -Ammo, LASERs, MASERs and Flame throwers are listed in the tables with AP -half... so for them the point halves-impact-armor-is-no-AP is moot as well.
Ol' Scratch
QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig @ Dec 9 2009, 03:39 AM) *
If it's rating, modified by AP, is exceeded, at the very least.
Of course, the 'otherwise' does not need to be the if-else-case, but can be the in-other-respect extension. In which case the normal rules apply even to the first sentence, and modified damage is compared to modified armor.

That's why Gauss Weapons, even with the former interpretation, will finish hardened Critters and Spirits, as they halve all armor but smart armor first, then apply the AP.
Of course, all Electro-Weapons and -Ammo, LASERs, MASERs and Flame throwers are listed in the tables with AP -half... so for them the point halves-impact-armor-is-no-AP is moot as well.

? Where are you getting the halved armor from? I don't recall reading anything like that in the Thunderstruck Gauss Rifle description, and I don't remember the table you're referencing. Or are you talking about the 600,000 nuyen ship-based vehicular version? And if so, why even mention it since it's a weapon that runners will rarely, if ever, see even on the receiving end? May as well be talking tactical nukes. biggrin.gif
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