I will not dispute that. I would like to point out, however, that bullets and guns are much more plentiful than magic.

"Rarity is balance" is wrong. Always has been, and always will be.

I've skimmed through most of the 7 pages on this post and just wanted to add my own 0.02:nuyen: as a primary GM and a sometimes player.

When I run things with immunities, esp a BBEG, I tend to give them an allergy that can be used to overcome said immunity (especially when dealing with ItNW.) I like to think of it as the chink in Smog's armor or the karmic balance that makes a little research go a long way (when applicable.)

I like the idea that a werewolf has an immunity to regular weapon damage, but that silver completely ignores it.... depending on allergy level given to npc it could do increased dmg, reduce immunity, or ignore immunity completely with increased damage.

Applied to spirits... it might be as simple/innocuous as a "holy water" kind of thing... bleach or amonia to a toxic spirit or a water cannon vs a fire elemental. Making rulings on this can be a little tough, but in my games it works better, especially flavor wise, than just making APDS the holy grail of mundane folk.

Wanted to second what Faradon said. I like to use powerful, high force spirits, when I GM, and our normal GM does also. My normal solution (besides the one found Here) is to include an allergy.

Free Spirit: Fey - Iron
Air Spirits - Salt (woot Jim Butcher)
Fire & Water - opposite element
Bugs - RAID/bug spray (it makes me really happy that one is official)

And so on. Sometimes it's a challenge to find the allergy, and sometimes it's just a knowledge check. My spirit hunter character carries a handful of each of the following (tipped) rounds: thermite/flare, silver, wood, iron, and some others.

It gives prepared players a bonus. Sometimes it's the spirit's type, and sometimes it's the spirit's tradition, but I'm not usually a jerk about it (I'm not pulling a fast one on my players).

Fun list. Is the wood-tipped to counter Earth Elementals? (i.e. the tree will crumble the sidewalk as its roots worm into cracks over the years?) Those guys were where my list petered out.

Nah, the wood tipped rounds are for the vampires.

(He also carried UV flash-packs for things with Sunlight alergies.)

Yeah... some of the spirit types are a little rougher (what is a Guardian Spirit alergic to, for example?). Earth and Plant I would play it by ear. Depending on the Plant spirit, I would often use Fire as a alergy. Earth I'm not sure on. Maybe something really processed.

(When in doubt, use Depleted Uranium. It's weakly radioactive and a toxic metal. DU is alot like Fire: it gets the job done.)

You should check with your GM if that works. At least in other games the disadvantages conferred by sunlight are more mystical than based on wavelength. Otherwise vampires would be penalized most of the time outside. Moonlight is reflected sunlight (I'm not sure however if the UV radiation is also reflected) and the stars are suns as well.

There is no depleted uranium in SR, unless you decree that the core of APDS is made of the material.

I'm not claiming a "rarity is balace" viewpoint, but rather a "volume is balance" one. IE: A full auto weapon and a lot of ammo are usually more plentiful than spellslingers, not because a spellslinger is more rare, but rather, bullets are exceedingly cheap.

Disclaimer: Of course any exotic weapons should be checked with your specific GM.

In our games, however, we generally treat Alergy:Sunlight as a UV weakness. Any situation where you can reasonably get sunburned triggers it. Direct sunlight of course, and diffused sunlight in certain situations. Hawaii and Florida generally yes (it's freakin dangerous to go outside on cloudy days without sunscreen on), Seattle.. well, it depends on the day. Summer/non-downpour yes, winter/heavy cloud cover probably not. (Yes, it is "rule-of-thumb.")

Since I believe the Albino negative trait gives you alergy:sunlight (weaker severity, but same allergy), it isn't likely "mystical." You can go to a suntanning store or grow crops underwater, in a cave, or in space. Thus we play that really intense light (of the correct type) triggers the allergy. (And Flash Paks are pretty intense.) Of course it's not going to magically trigger your alergy from across a warehouse (unless someone points a spotlight at you).



I don't believe Depleted Uranium "doesn't exist." If you mean as a bullet, we treat it as a exotic bullet (I believe Arsenal), just like all the other bullet types listed. Depleted Uranium could indeed be a APDS, but by 2070 APDS are not commonly UDs, otherwise the book would tell us so. I'm sure my GM would allow the combining of the two, but until I run into a Vampire in Full Military armor I'm not going to bother. (And what a calling card THAT would be to casually leave around.)

You're right, a sunlight allergy isn't mystical, but they are saying that they figure that a vampire's allergy to sunlight is something more than just UV radiation. It should be noted that an Albino's allergy is also more than just easily burned by UV, they are also blinded easily by bright lights, which sunlight generally is.

The moon does indeed reflect sunlight and the sun's UV radiation, so the moon should burn vampires if all you consider important is the UV radiation.

It's a game; we ballpark it as noted.

However, I also said that it requires a certain intensity. If you can't get a sunburn, it won't trigger your alergy (the way we play it). I've never heard of someone getting sunburned, at night, by the reflected light of the sun. And, while I am sure that there is in all likelyhood some rare disease/gene/mutation that would cause someone to sunburn on a heavily overcast Washington winter day...

...please see: it's a game.

If it's good enough to grow crops and keep people healthy, "its good enough to set off the alergy."* We're playing to have fun, and "Allergy" is a disadvantage. The two can be balanced.*


*Milage will very. Please consult your nearest, local GM.

I really like his list and what he had so far. Personally, I think of sonic/movement being the biggest opposite to Earth. So a weapon dealing specific sonic damage ( I think I remember a fluff story about the SCREECH prototype sonic weapon... would fit perfect.) or other ultra high frequency attacks. In many situations you just have to be creative as a GM.

Guardian spirits could be handled in a totally different fashion due to their nature. I could easily see silver, cold iron, or proton power packs all being their downfall. When dealing with a spirit like this I find it much easier to wrap my head around the thought that the presence of the material is what causes the spirit to lose its anchoring on this plane rather than the cold iron dagger actually drawing spirit goo from a cut.

I also don't see this strictly as a balance factor either, as a GM I like players to think, do research, etc... and then I like to reward them for that. Consulting spirit experts, magical resources, other spirits, and using knowledge skills are a great ways to uncover plot elements as well as making fights, when they inevitably will happen, a little easier for PCs. It also opens up having a fully "magical" adventure arc where mundane characters can fully contribute.

That said, in the heat of battle when an enemy caster calls forth a fire elemental and points it at the party, this is where the mage shines because the party isn't always carrying around some big water-based weapon. Some amount of prep work for a large spirit or a high magic adventure is great. And some materials are universally a good thing to have around. But it really is pretty unreasonable to have every contingency planned for (and carried with the party) everywhere they go.

FYI. If UV is important to vampires, then they're allergic to fluorescent lighting. And yes, you can get sunburned at a tanning salon. I mean, fluorescent lights are used to sterilize medical equipment.

I knew there was some common type of thing that put out UV radiation that I wasn't thinking of.

It doesn't put out a lot, but it is everywhere.

Of course by 207X LED lighting will probably have replaced most flourescent bulbs and I've also worked many years sitting right under several flourescent lights and never gotten sunburned by them either...

While you've never gotten sunburned, I know plenty of people who have an all-year facial tan.

Tanning salons use a confined area and literally bathe the area in light.

Ceiling florescents have enough of a dissipation factor between you and them when lighting a room optimally that the amount of UV is taken care of by your skin.

In SR there's a built-in balancing factor that allows you to restrict magic as much as you think is appropriate: Background Count. Many GMs on this forum have indicated that they treat BC as a rare thing, but nothing in RAW says you have to treat it this way. Making high- and low-BC areas in the city allows you to make mages and spirits less overpowering. Sometimes they'll be uber, and sometimes they'll struggle and be underpowered, while mundanes would have a consistent middle-level of effectiveness.

magic is often referred to in SR as the Great Equaliser for the masses. It's true.

Mages (if done well) can be very hard and very powerful. But you've got to get there first and a bullet will always kill a mage. A spirit is only as good as it's services and instruction allows for. Spells are Really Good!! Until you fail the drain or have to try and do something while multi sustaining. Foci and brilliant only they do kind of mark you as a mage (AKA painting a target on yourself).

Sure a mage can boost reflexes with magic and run it on a Foci but cyberware means everyone else will be going fast too and Mages can target anything through a smoke grenade (well they can, at least in SR3, but that involves Astrally percieving whilst casting a spell and Good Luck dodging any flying led whoile in that state.) And while the mage can just fire back, alot of them dont seem to have the training in the weapons like other folks do.

Rarity as a balance...well, actually. It is. Rarity by it's nature means there wont be alot of something if it's rare. It's down to the GM to enforce that. Or every compound ever would have Dragons as the paracritter security onsite, everyone would be deltawared on a security team and Gangers would all carry Panther Assault Cannons with AV rounds.

As for the All mage group... I'd love for that to happen, purely for the sheer level of Magical Threats I would get to use to the fullest from the SR setting. Not to mention the nightmare of the group getting hurt and magical loss through injury and so on.

Given that foci can be a necklace that you wear under your shirt or a ring or just about anything, I don't think you're really going to paint yourself as a target. And even if you have something that is fairly obviously likely to be a foci, most guards are going to be more concerned with trying to shoot intruders and dodge bullets than scrutinizing everything that their enemies are wearing to try and pick out the mage.

The problem with comparing a sustained increased reflexes via foci with a same level ware is that the spell and foci cost no essence and only 4 BP (Or like 8 karma) and something like 20k for the maximum possible boost, while a similar MbW is 5 essence and at least 100k (Don't remember off hand) and even the lesser wired reflexes is 5 essence and around 50k. And if you want to save on essence the max SB is 240k and still costs 1.5 essence. Sure they're all going the same speed, but it seems like someone is paying just a touch more to get there.

And rarity as a balance works somewhat well, but not when it isn't truly rare. Awakened are supposed to represent less than 1% of the population, but running groups have anywhere from about 25-75% awakened population, so claiming that mages are rare and then not having them be rare is the problem. This is compounded even more because in order to combat this high population you then have to throw out a large awakened population in the game world because only a mage really has a good chance of defending against a mage. So you end up with half the world that matters being awakened, thus making it rather not rare.

Especially if the foci can range from anything from a commlink to a pistol.

There are 5 guys shooting at you. All have some kind of body armor and a pistol and are virtually indistinguishable from one another. Which is the mage?

Hell, that Ork with an Obvious Lower Cyberarm complete with wrist Gyromount spraying you with SMG fire could be the mage and his Cyberarm can be the focus! Maybe his Cybereyes are his Sustaining Focus for that Increased Reflexes spell. Just make sure they're all enchanted BEFORE they're implanted.

Hmmm.... A Force 4 Sustaining Focus costs 4 BP (at chargen using the BP system, 8 Karma otherwise) plus 40,000 nuyen for the Initiative Boost, plus 3 BP (again at chargen) for the spell. Move-by-Wire offers much more than Initiative boost, it offers Dodge boost and skillwires, so it is not quite fair to compare the two. Wired Reflexes are much closer in effect, and at the same time they come in at roughly the cost you suggest. So the magic route costs about 15 BP and the cyber route costs about 20 BP plus essence. By this calculation alone, magic is a bargain.

One problem that is rarely discussed is that it is far easier for the sustained spell to be negated than it is for the cyberware. Part of the reason, I think, that magic seems to be portrayed as the nasty bugbear is that the counterbalances built into the system are not used as often as they should be. Magic is powerful, easily screwed up, and often damaging to the user. Cyberware is powerful, expensive in essence, and much hardier and more reliable.

Don't forget that the Increase Reflexes Spell only increases Initiative and IPs. 'Ware and the adept power increase Reaction and IPs. That is a lot better.

Agreed; there's actually not anything stopping the focus from being the shirt- hiding in plain sight is a very viable option. Presumably the only time you'd have to in any way manipulate the item is when you activate it with a Simple Action-- and even then I couldn't tell you for sure whether that actually takes physical manipulation or just a mere Simple Action's worth of concentration. Either way, there's really nothing stopping you from activating your foci and then stowing them on your person- heck, you could be stashing them in a skin pocket if you're really paranoid. Really, the only way a focus might make you stand out more is if you're in the presence of a mage or other being that can astrally perceive, and it only takes 1 hit on an assensing test for them to figure out if you're Awakened or not regardless, so it's something of a moot point in most situations.

Which, a deplete uranium APDS, or a vampire in full milspec armor (I actually played a nosferatu in heavy milspec BTW...)?

I had meant the deplete uranium APDS. Leaving radioactive, toxic metal "cop killer" bullets littering a crime scene kinda gets law enforcements attention. But both would be: the bullets after the fact, but having an "immortal" (regen) dude show up in terminator armor would certainly leave an impression on anyone you decided not to kill (or cameras).

With regards to "Gack the Mage:"
what about "Noticing Magic" on SR4, pg 168? It implies this might only apply when dealing with Shamanic Masks, but later on we get:


and


So the implication seems to be that a Shamanic Mask is not required to spot magic, and powerful magic is pretty easy to notice.

Contrary to the introductory fluff, mechanically magic actually is glaringly obvious. I'd prefer a threshold of Magic-Force, as such for a MAG 12 magician casting a Force 6 Spell is less strenuous and thus noticeable then for a magician with only MAG 6

That's hardly the issue though.

For people to geek the mage first, two things need to happen.

1. The mage has to either be observed by someone with magical talent or otherwise do something to reveal themselves. Further, the opposition has to notice it. This is quite likely if the Magician actually wanders around casting and sustaining crap all the time for some stupid reason. God knows I don't play like that.

2. The opposition still needs to be capable of perceiving the mage and taking action once the mage has revealed themselves.

That second one is the rub. As a GM, I've noticed that Magicians often reveal themselves by nuking the audience. Maybe they won't wipe out everyone, but magical intervention tends to be quick and decisive.

Please note that I'm working in generalisations rather than precise Mechanics because I dont play 4th ed.

Unless the system has been even more altered than I was aware the odds on a Cyberlimb or Pistol being a Foci are remote. The shirt and necklace sure and indeed can be easy to hide, but some Foci are fairly ostentatious and for alot of runners when it comes to Magic gear it is (or was) work with what you can get and any shadowrunner sporting fancy obvious jewellery, trinkets and niknaks (when on the run at least) is probably an awekened chappie (true you do still have to notice it all.)

See, that's going to depend utterly on how the GM and players handle attire at their table. Surely there's some prejudices involved regarding mages due to popular trid programs, but consider that pretty much all clothing can be armored and that things like the Zoé Heritage line of clothing is still popular among people with the nuyen to burn. If you spot a guy in an archaic haori it's as likely to be upper middle management as it is a kannushi or an adept, although a combat situation might certainly narrow the possibilities. Anyway, it's certainly possible that someone could give the impression that they are Awakened merely through their attire and choice of accessories, but it's hardly a given. With my current group it's the Face who's usually sporting bling (Pink mohawk for life).

I once played a Hermetic whose Foci were specifically designed to assemble into the form of a submachine gun. And his expendable foci were all enchanted clips. It was sheer elegance in its simplicity.

That's an awful lot of effort (i.e. penalties to your enchanting tests for using a processed object that someone else manufactured). And the end result is a bunch of foci that you can't take with you into any secure place (unlike a handful of rings and necklaces). If your captured the security guards may think to take away your ring, but they'll definitely remember to take away your gun... I don't see the up side to this, except maybe just for flavor.

Eh, the character came to me in a dream. He had a machine gun that made him fly. Shadowrun seemed the obvious port. It wasn't an actual machine gun, so it could be made from raw iron ire and if SR4 had been out, it would probably have been modeled after a Miracle Shooter pistol since the character was 12.

Heh... made an NPC mage with a power focus penile implant once.

Let me guess, he constantly asked girls if they wanted to see his magic wand?

Or possibly his sexual power?

Basically what Apathy said, although it is GM and group defined, there has often been a level of artistry involved with (especially hermatic) Foci. It comes down to Flavour really (or a deeper reading of the magical fluff too) But I can't see certain types of Awakened folks using certain types of Foci. All those fancy shamanic trappings relating to the Totem, or the sigils and patterns of a hermatic principle to the bones and accesories of the Hougan. That's part of the paradigm of Magic which was never really mechanically rated (because all foci works for all mages/shamans in the end), but was always there in the RP.

I don't think it's the strain of casting that makes it obvious; I think it's the "particle effects". You cast a low-force firebolt and the fire is pretty small - you cast a high-force firebolt and the flames swirl around you before streaking as bright as a burning flare towards your target.

Sustaining Focus, for use with Orgy?

While that would seem reasonable, the crunch states that any spell is visible. This includes stunbolts, magic fingers, sense enemies, ... The viewer can not tell what you cast (normally), but if they get 6-Force hits on a perception test, they can see that you did cast something. Even if you do not ahve to use any gesture, motion, or vocal components at all.
This seems to be intended to give the opposition a chance to geek the mage, once he has thrown one spell.

Yours,
Joel

Page 179 of SR4A says that to detect casting you can either pick up on the exertions of the magician and/or you can notice the disturbance around the caster as mana gathers and becomes concentrated around the caster (with powerful enough spells it can even glow), so really, it's a combination of things. How the GM and player wants to depict the appearance of such auras is a matter of taste and tradition.

They added that after the confusion of "what is it that people see?" and hasn't been there in any of the prior additions.
A.k.a. The cart was put before the horse.

So rather than changing the rules on magic in that ungodly powerful magicians can fart force 6 spells without thinking (yet be so painfully obvious that they cast a spell that blind men see it) they added some fluff rationalizing the design choice.

Pretty much.

Actually (in reference to the older editions, in specific SR3) while it states that all a mage really has to do is concentrate to cast magic most do not ONLY do this. I've mentioned it early and it comes down to paradigm or 'magical style' if you will. Shaman's cast magic through communion with their totems that takes on certain forms of behaviour and action(even wthout the mask) and hermatic mages learn formulae of gestures and words of power to harness and direct magical talent into spells. These are the methods and tools in which the metahuman mind bends the laws of physics to the principles of magic.

Remember the Sixth world is (or was) full of differant paths of magic and magical principles which all generated comparable effects (with benefits and disadvantages to each way of doing things). Spells were learned through Formula which were, as described, the principles techniques required to be performed exactly by mage or Shaman to generate 9and learn) the Spell desired.

So while it's nice to know SR4 gave a What do you see bit to detecting magic, it's kind of always been there although in a more abstract fashion (obviously mages in high risk career avenues learn or develope subtler gestures and whispered words of power / invocations of their totem and so forth).

By RAW they don't, which is the point being made.

Well, it is a Perception test. If the Mage is out of sight, it's reasonable to assume they don't catch him (I like the idea of the wizard mind-controlling guards passing below while clinging to the ceiling River Tam style). It could be as simple as getting the faceman to con them into looking the other way.

On the other hand, if you're going to throw a Force 8 fireball in the middle of a gunfight, you're officially not subtle.

Even if the 'effect' is subtle, a closely watching guard might figure it out anyway based on 1) Steve's head just caught fire 2) That skinny guy was watching Steve real close just before it happened 3) The skinny guy hasn't actually fired that SMG since this whole thing started. Come to think of it, a good tacnet might be programmed to notice anomalous effects consistent with magical threats and figure out which of the opposition hasn't been bothering to shoot.

I'd imagine that if you really wanted you could pull the trigger of a gun to make it look like you're trying as a free or non action. You wouldn't get a role to actually hit anything, but it would burn rounds to make a mage holding a weapon more believable as someone who uses a weapon.

Edit: And also the mage has been looking at the person for 3 seconds max, and as little as .75 seconds. That's not such a long time that it'd be easy to mark someone as having been particularly focused on a target (And of course nothing says you have to stare at a target the entire time you cast the spell)

However, what are the odds that your drunk street bum, completely obvious to the world notices a great dragon standing in front of him cast a Force 12 Catalog spell?

RAW says:

Bum throws 0 dice*, versus threshold -6. Bum wins.

*Bum is actually throwing some positive, fractional die. He's not unconscious.