It is in the ammo or errata or a side box or something, but somewhere it states that all gauss weapons halve armor before applying AP. This means that Gauss weapons can chew through anything with an armor below about 30ish

Can you reference it, please? I just took a gander and I don't see anything at all like that in the description for the rifle or its ammo. The only time it's mentioned is in the ship-based weapon description (where, incidentally, they make it sound like a unique feature). I mean, the gauss rifle is inferior to assault cannons by description and by stat, and so is the ammo (AC rounds have additional AP bonuses whereas Gauss do not).

EDIT: Nevermind. It is, indeed, in the errata. Thanks.

See - errata.

Luckily, given all those "AP -half" weapons, it's not always necessary to carry a Thunderstruck. But is sure is nice to have it (especially with the Easy Breakdown Modifiication - no worrying about chem sniffers).

The way I'm reading the original test, it doesn't even glance at AP until it sees if your damage exceeds the armor. If it does, only then AP kicks in and the armor is rolled. That's rather all-or-nothing.

I still think it's neater to treat HA as automatic-hit armor dice that are affected by AP. It's simple and might be as close to balanced as we get without major overhaul.

That would work out quite well when you start stacking hardened armor and normal armor (AP effects hardened first, rather than "stun happens when...?")

Also makes low values of HA actually useful (force 1 spirits and drakes come to mind)

Not quite so, with the reference to Hardened Armor. And in The Combat Sequence, Step 4. is where Armor is factored in for the first time, and it is modified before comparision. Even there, the term "modified" is used first, then discarded. Damage Resistance with rolling is resolved in Step 5, then.

Of course, disregarding both the Hardened Armor reference as well as The Combat Sequence, it would be to compare the bare base DV, without even net hits, to the bare Armor.

I have often thought of this rule as well. It makes HA more "evenly" significant rather than the "all or nothing" which I have been referring to as the "ping, ping, KA-BOOM" effect (where attacks do nothing, nothing, and then A WHOLE TON OF DAMAGE THAT TOTALLY DESTROYS IT)

I think you found a contradiction:

Odd, that's pretty much exactly how I see Hardened Armor working.

That only happens in giant robot anime though.

(Sorry, just finished watching Big O)

You do realize that we are way past that?

No, actually, it doesn't. Tank warfare looks an awful lot like that. Granted, there is typically some small amount of deformation and breaking of the ceramic tiles used in modern tank armor, but frankly that doesn't really amount to much; you still need powerful, modern anti-tank measures to defeat such protection, but once it is defeated the crew and internal components are pretty likely to get cooked inside their own armor.

Now, what makes Shadowrun look kind of weird is the fact that enough net hits can theoretically make just about anything capable of defeating hardened armor. Ping ping KABOOM passes the sniff test sense when the pings come from small arms fire and the KABOOM! is from a gauss weapon, but it does admittedly seem a pinch odd when the Gunslinger Adept uses some Edge and an APDS loaded Warhawk to suddenly cripple an attack chopper that had previously shrugged off the rest of the team's combined automatic weapons fire. I guess you just have to say he damaged a rotor or something.

That's kinda what I meant. If you watch Big O there are whole segments where attacks do nothing, then suddenly the same weapon carves a giant hole in the other guy. Most notably this fight (around the 7 minute mark).

I assume (since this is an SR4 thing) that the old reliable method of Going toe to toe with a spirit (and having a good WP) is no longer the viable method for dropping the higher force buggers?...

At my table (SR3) using a mage/Shaman or hitting the thing is the way to go still. Infact in all the previous editions fluff that i can think of Shooting a spirit was an exercise of limited usefulness...why do you think the Great ghost dance actually worked against the US?....

Because it made volcanoes explode?

And no, melee is no better an option than guns are.

It is largely an issue of game balance. You don't want to create a character that can only be defeated by itself. If spirits are truly untouchable by mundanes (Which would be the case with AP not affecting ItNW), then the only thing that can beat a spirit is an awakened, and since awakened can summon spirits, by extension the only thing that can beat an awakened is another awakened.

Thus the game quickly turns into "You play an awakened or you are pointless".

Fair enough, also I recall (and just checked) most Force 6's 9and 8's) in SR3 dont get Hardened as part of their Immunities, just Force x2 (Which still made force 6+ very very hard to hurt with conventional small arms).

In SR3, APDS and other special ammo types were treated as normal ammo for the purposes of damaging ItNW creatures.

Yeah, conventional small arms should generally bounce off a spirit. But something short of assault cannons should be able to injure a force 6 spirit. I admit that I'm not particularly fond of SnS making spirits pathetic, but I think weapons should be able to have an affect.

Personally I really like the above mentioned idea that hardened armor simply counts as automatic hits on the damage test. That means that you can injure a spirit with SnS ammo, but it will only be a few points at a time. But meanwhile if you have assault cannons or high powered sniper rifles, the spirit is going to feel the hurt quickly. There does need to be some sort of mechanic to address people using bursts to increase their DV, but that is another issue.

In the campaign in which I play a mystic adept of a possession tradition, who can summon up to F4 spirits, the AP of an attacking weapon is applied to the Hardened Armor of the spirit first, then the comparison is made whether the attack penetrates or not. The total armor calculation we use is (Armor worn by PC + Hardened Armor of possessing spirit). If the attacking weapon has AP, then the AP is applied to both parts of the armor. so, the final dice pool for Damage Resistance is:

(BOD of PC + Force of possessing spirit) + (Armor worn + HA of spirit - (2 X AP of attacking weapon)).

As far as we can tell, this is according to RAW, and even the GM who is very wary of possession traditions is happy with the result. The PC is hard to damage, but a good mundane can do so. A drunk ganger with a broken beer bottle ... not so much. Now, had I tweaked this guy, he could have been much harder to damage, at least in part because of the spirit's powers, and so Spirit Hardened Armor is something that needs to be watched, but so do a lot of other aspects of the game.

Karoline's PC, a mundane, continually asks to use my PC as target practice for her sniper rifle. He graciously declines.

I promise not to use edge or special ammo

It's only 20ish dice with 9P -4 damage

I'm sure you could reduce that to... you know, like single digits... maybe

And I only asked that back when you were going to be summoning force 5 or 6 spirits.

Well, Attacks of Will are also a way to deal with spirits.. (Street Magic, p. 94)

Mage are still better at it, but a Face can be good at it too, since the DV is based on Charisma. And there's a martial art in Arsenal that gives bonuses to it. (Kiai, I think.)

So, there you go, then. Even a Force 6 spirit (which can hurt like hell to Summon, much less Bind), with HA of 12, would have that reduced to 8 by this weapon, and she would get through even with a minimal success.

Spirits ain't so bad.

Yep, you can use attacks of will against spirits, but they are best used by mages. You attack with Willpower + banishing, and use Charisma as the DV, but the spirit does not get immunity against it. A combat oriented character is probably going to do better with a normal melee attack as they are likely to be able to do more damage than twice their charisma, and would get more dice on the attack roll.

Yeah, but that is only if you apply the AP, which is what this discussion seems to have moved to, weather or not AP should be applied to ItNW.

If it isn't, then what is nearly the most powerful weapon in the game requires 4 net hits to do damage to a force 6 spirit (It will then turn the spirit into mist granted). While 4 isn't alot, it is, once again, near the top of the weapons food chain. Most runners don't carry anything heavier than an assault rifle, which requires 7 hits to harm a force 6 spirit.

And a force 6 spirit isn't all that hard for a mage to summon either. The spirit gets 6 dice, which averages 2 hits, which is only 4 damage (Possibly only stun). A mage with decent willpower and prime stat and summoning focus (Or can those not be used for drain any more? I forget as I don't play mages much) shouldn't have too much damage soaking 4 damage. Even when it goes up to 3 hits it won't be too much damage. A lucky spirit might cause some damage, but it would be a small price to pay for a near immortal ally (Under the AP not affecting assumption)

I'm so itching to write SR4.5 myself which would clear up these hundreds of arguments that spring up over inconsistencies and poor wording (Personally I don't think the wording is particularly bad here, but it has still obviously managed to create at least a few people who have very strongly interpreted it differently from myself).

I don't really see attacks of will being effective for non-mages. Your DP is going to be way too low to have a prayer of actually hitting the spirit. I mean at best you have a 5 or 6 against likely a double digit DP to defend.

Admittedly I don't think this should be an easy option that everyone can just run up and succeed on, but to make it viable you have to have maxed out willpower and spend a bunch of points on a particular martial arts, not to mention also needing a high charisma to do decent damage. It is admittedly very cool that the spirit will only be soaking damage with their body, but it landing the hit that is going to be the problem. And mages of course are going to be able to do way more damage way more certainly and from a greater range with a simple stunbolt.

Actually, this already seems like the case. If you don't have someone magical on your side, you're pretty much ice cream for freaks.

Of course, it's always pretty much been that way. It's Shadowrun, where Man Meets Magic and Machine.

True, Magic has always had an advantage, largely because their attacks are all but impossible to defend against.

But that is just all the more reasons to not make spirits more powerful. Despite the power gap mundanes are still quite playable, and as it currently stands, things are much more 'you need a mage around' than 'non-mages are pointless'.

That's my feeling about spirit powers that are Stat+Magic vs a target's Stat. Basically, a Force 3 spirit has an even chance of affecting a WIL 6 target. That just seems skewed to me.

This simply exacerbates the *Plink, Plink, BOOOM* effect, though. If the damage gets through his ItNW under this reading of the rules, the spirit is pretty much disrupted.

EDIT: It almost physically pains me to disagree with you, since I seem to be in your fan club, but this view of the rules is literally "The Spirit ignores your attacks" or "the spirit died."

Maybe I'm missing something here, but the spirit doesn't automatically die. It gets to React to (even Dodge -- they all have the Skill) the attack, cutting a point or two off the DV, and then it gets to resist the damage with BOD + Armor. So it is more likely *plink* *plink* *OW!*

No, under his rule, you need to get enough net hits for it to naturally get through the fully Mx2 rating before AP is applied.

IE: Force 4 spirit has ItNW 8. Gets hit with a taser round with one success - ignores the attack. Gets hit with taser shot with 2 net successes, the spirit still ignores the shot. He needs to be hit with 3+ net successes. So let's go with 3 net successes: 9S(e). NOW the AP applies, turning that poor spirit into only having 8 (+/- a couple depending on spirit type) dice for the Resistance Test. This would result in about 2 successes, dropping it all the way down to 7 out of the spirit's 10 boxes of Stun track.

Chances are, however, you'll end up getting more than simply 3 successes.

Hang on, though. Those are net hits, after the Spirit's Defense Test (REA + possibly Dodge). So the attacker will have needed more than 3 total hits.

And even so, 7 boxes out of 10 is still not dead. Close, but no cigar yet.

It is not uncommon to see at my tables 8 or 9 successes for shooting Tests. Your 3 or 4 successes for dodges equal a dead spirit. More so using these rules than otherwise - or rather, the difference between absolutely no Damage Resistance Test required and total destruction of spirit is more apparent.

You'd have to compare dice pools. On the average in order to get 3 net successes, the shooter has to have 9 more dice than the target.

Granted it's not directly related to the "pink, pink, BOOM" arguement, but if you're getting 8 or 9 successes (in your example, that's 4ish net), would that not kill pretty much anyone (aside from hardcore tanks), not just spirits?

If Shadowrun is the game of glass cannons, it would seem like spirits just have a special way of going about it.

I agree that it would be nice if there was a middle ground. Not invulnerable, but not pink/boom. Maybe (off the top of my head) something like ItNWs automatically reducing X number of boxes (ItNW 4 = -4 boxes of damage before resistance test). I believe something like that was suggested earlier in the thread.

If nothing else, it might help balance spirits, because the GM would know exactly how many boxes a spirit will be reducing by. And the players can hurt the spirit, but they will have to chip away at it (or assault cannon, of course).

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"Plink, Plink, BOOM" doesn't bother me when it comes to spirits though. I mean, it's not like they have flesh and blood and organs that are damaged. Low damage attacks can bounce off or pass right through them and the spirit barely notices, it takes an attack that is violent enough to disrupt the form to actually damage it.

And of course there is this reasoning. Unless you're playing a Free Spirit, when it comes to your spirits being disrupted, you know where to get another one.

AH, that makes perfect sense IMO.

Thank you.

I seem to recall Spirits being rather tough to beat up outside of physical attacks or spells in previous editions. Though I did have a player who used a Panther Assault Cannon to blow spirits away... then again, he was as scary good with the weapon as spirits were tough.

Also keep in mind a Force 6 spirit is basically at the pinnacle of unaugmented human advancement. That spirit **SHOULD** be that tough. It's equal to the best humans in the world. Force 7+ should be positively frightening.

It also reinforces the idea that you geek the mage first; that you fight magic with magic and guns with guns. Fighting magic with guns is a losing proposition without significant pre-planning to stack the odds in your favor.

The problem isn't really with spirits being plink, plink, BOOM, but that the hardened armor rules are plink, plink, BOOM.

Great Dragons, for instance, will never make a damage resistance test, for two reasons:

1) If the damage is lower than their armor value, they don't roll, as it plinks off.

2) If the damage is higher, they don't roll because the amount of damage--after possible resist--is still enough to outright kill them.

Great Dragons have hardened armor 20.

Resisting damage (western dragon), they roll 45 dice (20 armor, 25 body), assuming no sustained armor spell.* If they 4-for-1 on an attack doing 21 damage they resist 11 damage and take 10 boxes to their 10-box health track. If they roll average, then they take 5 boxes outright, which means that if you can do enough to hurt them they have--effectively--2 hitpoints.

*For simplicity of not knowing how the Armor spell stacks with innate Hardened Armor. If it also counts as hardened (they're great dragons, so why not?) then they get an extra 12 armor without overcasting, bringing the amount of single-punch-through attack value to 33. 33 damage minus average roll leaves 14 boxes => insta unconsciousness (if not outright death).

I think your math is off. Any creature/device with a body of 25 has 21 Boxes (8+Round Up(BOD/2)) on its physical damage track. An average resistance roll reduces the damage by 15, with 1 for 4 dice it is 11. So the great western dragon has either 15 boxes or 10 boxes left. It is at -2 or -3 from then on. That is hardly an Insta-Kill.

a) there is no basis for hardened armor making other armor hardened as well, except for the Critter(not Adept) Power Mystic Armor. b)The dragon must achieve 12! hits on the spellcasting test. I doubt he has a pool of 36 to do that regularly. Actually it is 24 so +8 armor

Great Dragons have on the order of 22 boxes for physical damage plus about 15 for stun damage. And they have that cool Twist Fate power.

21-22 boxes:
My bad (hadn't had my coffee yet?) I was mistakenly going "NPCs have 10, always."

Anyway, adding +3 points of hardened armor effectively means that if you're taking damage you're taking +2 more than you would be otherwise (assuming that the amount of damage needed to breech the armor is on the level of "absurd").

I'm not sure I understand this. Is this saying that a character would put down his mega-damage weapon and use a smaller weapon, simply because he knew the target had less hardened armor?

No, I was saying that as armor goes up you need more DV in order to break the armor. Under the assumption that you're always breaking the armor by 1, +3 hardened armor is +2 damage.

That is, that's the minimum damage the target can take (using average/trade dice instead of rolls).

The way I see it for immunities and elemental attacks I would indeed compare the DV of the attack before halving the armor, it just means to me that every "shield" has a breaking point, like pretty much any material.

As for your "Plink... plink... dead" pbangarth, I think that's not entirely illogical, it's all about the breaking point I talked about, meaning that when you do finally deal damage it's because you've had more successes than usual on your roll, thus getting a higher DV because you have...... hit a SOFT spot... maybe a spot that wasnt as well protected or something.

If you want a perfect mythical example, think about siegfried and the dragon... invincible armor but one soft spot, which siegfried was lucky or talented enough to hit at last.

I'd say that's an example of a Called Shot to bypass armor. Which may or may not make sense with Immunities (but immunities don't make much sense when they're not really..immunities..)

Yes, by my point is I don't like geek the mage first. You shouldn't have a single archetype option so much more powerful than the others that everyone who has ever played before knows that you need to kill them right away or you are totally screwed.

Yes, fighting Magic with guns is a losing proposition, but fighting guns with magic (obviously) isn't. So what you have is the following:

Magic beats magic
Guns beats guns
Magic beats guns

There is thus no reason to ever use guns, because magic can beat anything guns can beat and more. It is kinda like offering someone a rubber band or an assault rifle and asking them which one they want to use in the upcoming fight when the opponent will get the other one.

As for the *plink, plink, BOOM* syndrome, lets look at the dragon again.

20 armor, 25 body. I'm going to come after him with a gauss assault cannon(only makes sense). I use a called shot to increase the damage by 4, and burn some edge to make the shot and so I get enough net hits to deal 21 damage to get past hardened armor.

Gauss weapon reduces armor by half, so it goes down to 10 for resistance. Then the AP of -4 applies, dropping his armor down to 6. Now all the sudden he only has 31 dice to resist, which on an average roll brings it down to 11 damage, which is a rather huge chunk of his 20 point track. If two people did this at the same time, it would be an instant kill on a dragon. Anything less than this combined assault would not even hurt the dragon. So yeah, I see a rather massive problem with that. Great dragons aren't that scary as long as you have two people with gauss assault cannons around.

You may want to fight magic (i.e. spirits) with magic, but you are still in pretty good shape when you fight the mage with a gun. Hot lead from a Barret 121 to the mage's brainpain has a nice chilling effect on the spells they are casting, and of course a mage is going to be able to use counterspelling on any magic you toss their way.

That leaves:

Bums beat nothing
Knives beat bums
Guns beat knives
Guns beat guns
Scorcery beat scorcery
Scorcery beat guns
Scorcery beat spirits*
Scorcery beats knives
Spirits beat scorcery*
Spirits beat guns
Spirits beat spirits
Spirits beat knives

*Spirit powers aren't effected by counterspelling, but spells harm spirits