Mystic Adept / Magician functional differences, If you add Astral Perception and stir vigorously, what's different Options

[ForumFerret]

So really if you want to boost CHA, you're limited to Genetic Optimization (CHA) and Exceptional Attribute (CHA), then spending the BP's karma to rock it up to 10.

That'd make me de-facto Face and give me something like 15 - 16 dice to resist drain. That's Force 10 spells with no effect, all day long (with platelet factory and/or trauma damper), right?

[BlackHat]

Is there errata available for Augmentation somewhere anyway? (Other than also buying the german edition..)

I don't think there is. If there was, it would be here: http://www.shadowrun4.com/resources/index.shtml#errata

[Glyph]

So really if you want to boost CHA, you're limited to Genetic Optimization (CHA) and Exceptional Attribute (CHA), then spending the BP's karma to rock it up to 10.

That'd make me de-facto Face and give me something like 15 - 16 dice to resist drain. That's Force 10 spells with no effect, all day long (with platelet factory and/or trauma damper), right?

There is also the metagenetic improvement you can get from SURGE. So 11. But remember, it is Magic rating, not Charisma, that determines whether you are overcasting. Fifteen dice and a trauma dampener will usually soak about 6 points of Drain, but if you continually do it, you will eventually run out of luck and roll poorly on Drain resistance.

[ForumFerret]

Yeah I wouldn't be tossing around F10 stuff on the regular - that's likely a great way to get my DM to orbital drop a jarhead on my position. But it'll be nice for summoning a high Force spirit when necessary, or f10 stunballs (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[JoelHalpern]

But remember, it is Magic rating, not Charisma, that determines whether you are overcasting. Fifteen dice and a trauma dampener will usually soak about 6 points of Drain, but if you continually do it, you will eventually run out of luck and roll poorly on Drain resistance.

As I read it, the roll for soaking drain would apply before the Trauma dampener. As such, while it will help when you roll badly, you would not want to count on it for the normal case, since in any case where it helps, you have to end up with at least one box of damage.

With 15 dice, if you want an 80% chance of soaking all the drain, you would only be willing to accept 4 drain.
At 5 drain, (with Trauma Damper) you are looking at a 60% chance of totally soaking, and a 20% chance of 1 P. (The other 20% of the time, it is worse.) Adding the trauma dampener increase the 1P drain region to 31% at 5 drain. (Shadowrun dice have a very large standard deviation.)

[RedeemerofOgar]

Actually, not a good tactic, as you can only listen in on a physical conversation from astral if you manifest, which makes you visible to the physical.

There's always lip-reading. Yes, my mage took points in it. Hard to follow many people talking though. However, I'm fairly certain that Dreadlord's comment is correct.

Gah, I didn't even think about Positive Qualities limits. Annoying that Magician counts against that limit.

I've never played with a GM that counts either Race or Magic against the limit. Mages have enough problems as it is, but more relevantly, the order of character creation is Metatype, Attributes (which includes Magic), Skills, Qualities, and then Resources. Everyone I game with agrees that Qualities are picked up in step four and used as a method to tweak or flesh out your character, they are NOT the points you spend at the start of character creation. YMMV, some people get aneurysms at the thought of using anyone's logic other than the game designer's. Me, I've met too many game designers to follow that plan. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[etherial]

You can really build your character in any order, since nothing's final 'til it's final. Attributes, Gear, Metatype, Qualities, and Adept Powers all affect all the other things and there's really nothing that can absolutely be done first, and the only thing that can really be done absolutely last is Knowledge Skills.

[ForumFerret]

On to a new topic of contention;

Mentor Spirits - people have mentioned them helping with drain. Is that just referencing their +2 dice for the appropriate spell of schools, or did I miss a general 'coping with drain' benefit in there somewhere?

Are Ally Spirits worth the effort involved in obtaining them? What's the general consensus on Long-term binding (year and a day) referenced in Street Magic (paying for the binding with Karma)

[ForumFerret]

35 point limit for Positive Qualities - does buying Negative Qualities allow you buy more Positive, if you want/need to?

for a net of 70 pts positive qualities and 35 points in negative qualities?

[Medicineman]

35 point limit for Positive Qualities - does buying Negative Qualities allow you buy more Positive, if you want/need to?

for a net of 70 pts positive qualities and 35 points in negative qualities?

Nope !
the Limit is 35 Points for Positives and 35 for Negatives not More

@Trigger
You don't have to Manifest to Eavesdrop
You only have to if you want to communicate with a mundane Person

Hough !
Medicienman

[ForumFerret]

Thanks Medicineman!

[ForumFerret]

ARGH, two BP left. I guess I could grab a specialization - not much else that costs two BP far as I can tell. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)


Also, is there any Cyber/Bio other than Genetic Optimization that will boost Intuition?

[twilite]

If, as a Mage or Mystic Adept, you want straight boosts to your attributes and initiative, you can do it with spells and Sustaining Foci. This is the only way to improve Mental attributes other than logic- all other boosts, such as from various wares, help give dice to attribute-linked skill tests, but don't increase the attribute itself, and so do not help with drain tests.

Advantages- you can get Augmented Max ratings for mental attributes, which is not otherwise possible except for logic (using Cerebral Boosters).
You can do it without losing any essence and therefore Magic.
Still works if you use Surge II to get a Mental attributes up to an Augmented Max of 10.
The spell drain is very low.

Disadvantages- Spells can be dispelled, cause problems going through wards, and can be seen on the astral.
You need to cast the spells and get 4-5 hits.
You need to spend positive quality points on Restricted Gear (5 points each, up to 3 times) if you want to start play with them.
Sustaining foci cost a bunch of BP's to buy and bond.
You are limited in how many foci can be active by your logic.
Having foci on all the time may cause your GM to give you Focus Addiction.

Basically, the way it works for attributes, you get the spell Increase [Attribute] for the particular attribute that you want to increase. You spend 5 Positive Quality Points for the right to purchase a Sustaining Focus (Health) 5. You buy up your attribute to 4 for an Augmented Max of 9, or 5 for an Augemented Max of 10 (due to Surge or Dwarf). You pay 15 BP to purchase and bond the focus. You cast the spell, and when you have a casting with 5 hits, you use the Sustaining Focus to lock it.

Due to the limits from Restricted Gear, you can buy 1-3 sustaining Foci this way, although I would save 1 purchase of Restricted Gear to get a Rating 4 Power Focus- very powerful and much cheaper to buy and bond at character creation than in game. Your humans (any tradition) and orks (Intuition based traditions only) can start with up to 19 dice of drain resistance if you Surge. Your dwarves can start with 20 dice in drain resistance, with Surge. Because the rating limit on sustaining foci even with restricted gear is 5 and you need to cast the spell at the current attribute rating for it to work, Elves using Charisma can only get 18 dice by using Surge on Charisma, hard capping it at 9, and then using spells and a focus on Willpower. Otherwise, they are maxed at 19 like humans and orks, if Surged.

For more IP's, check out Increase Reflexes. With a Rating 3 Sustaining Focus (available at character creation without Restricted Gear) you can get +2 Initiative and +2 IP's, without losing essence. It has the same disadvantages as above, of course.

Anyway, there are some options for you, in case you want to forgo the essence-loss route for the healthier, but riskier, magical increases.

[ForumFerret]

Does a Power Focus add it's rating to Drain tests as well? I thought it just added to casting dice.

That'd be, let's see...

9 or 10 in Attribute (Base 4 or 5 plus Force 5 Imp. Intuition on the Sustain Focus)
5 in Willpower
4 Power Focus

for 19 dice to soak, plus Imp. Concentration (+1 or +2 dice)

up to 21 dice, so force 5 spells all day every day (while totally buffed) using the 4/1 success buy?

Hrm. That's pretty nasty.

Can you Genetic Optimization intuition? *digging out Augmentation* It appears that you can! +1 to the dice pool would boots me up to F6 spells unless there's an always-round-down rule somewhere I missed.

[Moxie]

Bit off topic, but you can also do a pixie for the +willpower/+int, logic, or charisma for 35 BP. They also fly pretty darn fast along with their concealment power = magic rating penalty to perception, makes them a great mage. If you're allowing surge, you may as well go pixie or nosferatu (if you like the interesting idea of magic 4 base + 6 drained magic for 10 magic, its pretty cool).

[ForumFerret]

I'd like to keep to standard races (for now) - most of the other players are new to the game, so I want to look 'normal' to them; I just want to be able to bring the pain if necessary.

[twilite]

Does a Power Focus add it's rating to Drain tests as well? I thought it just added to casting dice.

That'd be, let's see...

9 or 10 in Attribute (Base 4 or 5 plus Force 5 Imp. Intuition on the Sustain Focus)
5 in Willpower
4 Power Focus

for 19 dice to soak, plus Imp. Concentration (+1 or +2 dice)

up to 21 dice, so force 5 spells all day every day (while totally buffed) using the 4/1 success buy?

Hrm. That's pretty nasty.

Can you Genetic Optimization intuition? *digging out Augmentation* It appears that you can! +1 to the dice pool would boots me up to F6 spells unless there's an always-round-down rule somewhere I missed.

Power Focus does not help with drain. But you can improve Willpower AND the other attribute for 18-20 dice. I wouldn't Genetic Optimize on this route, as it loses you Essence and therefore Magic. Also, the buying successes is only supposed to be in non-stressful situations, although that is by GM decision.

[ForumFerret]

Ahhh, I see. Hrm. I already have some 1 magic lost from cyberware/bioware, so I can fit about .2 essence after Trauma Damper, platelet factory, eyes, jack, and Commlimk ( as calculated by SR4CharGen). I'll have to wait for nuyen after starting the game ( or change around my negative qualities for some heavy In Debt) but I could fit in the GeneOpt after that...