Hey all,

I'm currently pouring through making my first SR4 character, so I've been going over the sample Magician builds and such in the forums here and elsewhere. A thought struck me last night:

If you spend the BP to add Astral Perception to a Mystic Adept, is he functionally any different from a Magician now?

Figure a Magic 6 character; the Mystic Adept is 75BP; with a 5/1 Magic/Power Point split, you end up with Magic 5 and Astral Perception as your 1-point Power.

He'll have less raw magical/spell-slinging ability (obviously) as you're going to dedicate 1 or more points of your Magic rating to Adept powers; but you can then go forth and purchase additional Adept powers down the road using karma, while casting Force 5 - Force 10 spells. Very Karma intensive, but could be interesting.

Is there anything a Magician can do that a high-magic Mystic Adept with Astral Perception can't do?

Are there any Adept powers that would be really nice for a combat mage to have?

The main difference is that mystic adepts cannot astrally project, and so generally lack access to the metaplanes.

Also, the advantage of being able to get adept powers is offset by the disadvantage of those adept powers being taken in lieu of either points in Magic or metamagics (the latter if you use the optional rule letting adepts choose a power point instead of a metamagic). The Magic Attribute of a mage both pumps up his dice pool and raises the rating of spells that can be cast.

On the other hand, adept powers can be very good to have. Improved senses can help with spell targeting, improved reflexes (while pricey) give you an initiative boost that you don't need to keep recasting, pain resistance lets you ignore Drain penalties, rapid healing lets you recover from Drain more quickly, and sustenance lets you function for more hours per day for all of the time-consuming tasks that mages have. Other adept powers can fit more specific concepts (kinesics for a shaman with the seductress mentor spirit, improved ability in a combat skill for a combat mage, etc.).

Actually, if I go with runner's campanion and go with that one asian vampire. They can always astrally project and are dual natured. So you could go w/ mystic adept there and still be a full mage w/ all the points in magic casting (not recommended, just fun rules lawyering... as it opens up some of the adept metamagics).


Generally the problem w/ mystic adepts is they can take a bit of everything. But it's way too easy for them to lose focus. Also most of the adept powers are easily replicated w/ spells. Then there's the other problem that Power points and spellcasting are both bought w/ your magic attribute. And it gets VERY costly to marginally increase that combined stat. (magic 7 -> 8 == 40 karma). Also quite frankly... 1 full magic point for astral perception is a very steep price.

Lets say I have 12 spells and 1 or 2 sustaining foci, each point I add to magic, increases my power w/ all my spells including the sustainable ones. If I get an adept power, it's much more limited.

How often is metaplane access and astral projection (as opposed to just astral perception) going to be a big negative?

And can't an Initiated Mystic Adept get metamagic just like a Magician can? (If not, then I have no need to keep thinking about MA's, as the astral trial eliminating metamagics are definitely on my list of things to get)

One of the primary roles for magicians is astral recon. So it is a major loss in abilities.


IE: I leave my body, float through the wall and look to see what's on the other side.
Or, we need to know where this guy is going... you can have a covops type specialist trail him in meat, maybe get spotted, or have to deal w/ counter-tailing techniques. Or another option is the mage goes astral and follows him, which a non-awakened would never realize, but might take steps such as going through wards to prevent just in case.

Or, you're in a bar... you're trying to hear what the guy on the other side of the bar is talking about. Mage might 'fake' passing out... and float over to the other side of the room to eavesdrop from close in.


Yes you can order a spirit to do it, but spirits don't see the world the same way we do. So even sending a high force highly intelligent spirit does not mean it will understand what it sees on the other side. Our world is in many ways alien to them, just as if we were to go to their home planes, things would be alien to us. What they consider important very well isn't what we'd consider important in many cases.

Actually, not a good tactic, as you can only listen in on a physical conversation from astral if you manifest, which makes you visible to the physical.

Without Astral Projection, you are somewhat limited in your usage of Masking.

Ahhh, I see. Hrm. Bio/cyber Magician it is, then.

10BP Biocompatibility (Bioware) - Bioware Essence Costs are reduced by 10%
30BP Type O System - All bioware counts as Deltaware)

Platelet Factory(.09E), Synaptic Booster3(.675E), Trauma Damper(.09E), Orthoskin3(.67E) , plus all the cybereyes I can add on?

Rating 3 or so, with Vision Enhance, Vision Mag, Micro Vision, Thermographic (or low-light? Both?), flare comp - alpha ware, beta if I can swing it...

That drops 2 Magic in Essence costs, though.

In other notes:
I see the Augmented Maximum for Elf Charisma is 12, and the natural maximum is 8 - I'm not seeing what I could do to boost my Charisma that high; do the rules just assume cyber/bioware upgrades to that point? What Bio/Tech upgrades would do such a thing?

(looking at a Wheel Path Tir elf)

Okay, 2 problems...
Magician 15BP, Biocompatibility 10BP, Type0 30BP.
You have 55BP worth of positive qualities... standard chargen limits you to no more than 35 (even most GM's who have their own still limit you to no more than 40 or so).

Synaptic3 costs 240k and leaves you with at most 10k worth of resources... you probably don't have the money for it w/ the rest. You're limited to 50BP (250k) worth of resources in chargen... slightly more w/ some other qualities (which again you're already well over the max).

The cybermage has long been a staple character of shadowrun. The catch is, it's also a great way to twink out if you understand the system. As far as cyber which enhances charisma, look at tailored pheromones. Another way to hit the limit is a force 12 casting of 'increase charisma' with enough hits to raise the stat to the cap.. (I'm not going to get into the debate on increase attribute spells here).


Trigger: (page cite please)
1. I don't believe you are correct here. Non-living items only register indistinctly such as sounds. But living beings still have a vibrant distinct aura on the astral.
2. Even if I do grant, your argument still doesn't hold. Manifested mages are basically ghosts. They don't show up on electronic devices and are purely psychic constructs. There's nothing stopping from manifesting in the floor, or somewhere else within earshot but out of sight.

The latter is something usefull when showing up to meet w/ Johnson's. You can talk and interact with your astral form, without showing up on any surveillance.

10BP Biocompatibility (Bioware) - Bioware Essence Costs are reduced by 10%
30BP Type O System - All bioware counts as Deltaware)
First
These Advantages are not compatible
second
That would be 40 Points
Third
Type O works only for standard Bioware,not cultivated

with too much incompatible dances
Medicineman

They calculate augmented maximums for all Attributes across the board, regardless of whether there are actually sufficient augmentations available to reach that level. Charisma can be increased by genetic optimization, the exceptional attribute quality, and metagenetic improvement: Charisma. All of those increase your augmented maximum, too, though, so you still can't reach it.

The only thing that gives a straightforward increase to Charisma that I can find is in Augmentation, pg. 23. There is an optional rule that cosmetic surgery can increase the Charisma attribute by up to 3 points. I'm not sure those points would count towards magical skills, but curiously, it doesn't say that they don't.

Gah, I didn't even think about Positive Qualities limits. Annoying that Magician counts against that limit.

Well, shucks. I can scale a lot of it back, and reduce or drop Synaptic Boost for a remote-serviced Sustain on a high-force Improved Reflexes. I'm okay with having very little equipment to start with (I was thinking of a sort of burn-notice-esque 'dropped into seattle' sort of backstory); Can the advanced contacts rules be utilized to get contacts which could provide these upgrades for a cost reduction?

Medicineman, what makes you say that Biocompatibility and Type-O System are mutually exclusive? There's nothing in their descriptions saying that they are...?

Thanks for the help, folks, I appreciate it.

Speaking of remote-serviced Sustain: does the hypothetical Conjurer utilize bound spirits for the task, or would you just get up in the morning, conjur spirit and sustain until Dusk, then at dusk conjur another one in an out of the way corner of wherever you happen to be and sustain again until Dawn?

No. Manifesting makes the astrally projecting character visible and audible to physical characters, and that's all. No additional benefits to manifested characters, they still see and hear as astral beings.

One thing to keep in mind... SOTA64 has a few new metamagics. One neat one is for Adepts. If you have Astral Perception, you can take this metamagic to be able to use Astral Projection. The catch is... it's for (Magic) Minutes not (Magic) Hours like it is for Mages.

May want to talk with your GM.

Medicineman, what makes you say that Biocompatibility and Type-O System are mutually exclusive? There's nothing in their descriptions saying that they are...?
The German Bodytech says it very clearly so at Page 20
Could somebody with an English Book Confirm the Incompatibility ? Thanks

with a German Dance
Medicienman

And don't forget the enhanced pherormones bio augmentation in the BBB.

Ah, the US version does not include that line:

Biocompatability
Cost: 10 BP
Something about the character’s body is exceptionally accepting
of either bioware or cyberware implants (choose one).
...
chosen type are reduced
by 10 percent. This reduction does not apply to genetech.
This quality may only be taken once.

Type O System
Cost: 30 BP
Though exceptionally rare, a few lucky people in the world
have completely non-allergenic “type O” cells, meaning that they
can give organ transplants to just about anyone with little chance of
rejection.
...
Their bodies are also filled with universally transplantable
organs, so maybe they shouldn’t brag too much about this talent.

(centers snipped so as not to provide full clips from the rulebook)


Also, Falconer, I'm not seeing any entry in the Qualities section of SR4 main rulebook limiting Positive Qualities to 35 pts. Can you reference the page?

Ahh, I see I'm blind today.

Thanks B_S!

Ah, the US version does not include that line:
I know that the latest Erratta are always included in the German Rulebooks cause Pegasus Games is working very closely with Catalyst Games.

Hough !
Medicineman

Don't count on tailored pherormones working for magical skills till you run it by your GM since they can be viewed as a situational bonus. For example under the description of a sniffer, they say you can block certain smells and give an example of removing the cha bonus from the pherormones in contested skills.

Hehe sorry just picturing someone trying to explain the reasoning behind the "I smell so good drain just doesn't stick as well".

Main thing you will see is when you try to put all that together in one character you will be running approx 150 bp short when you add in skills. You can do it if you severly gimp yourself in every other area and your GM doesn't enforce the 1 str, agi, and body when trying to run more than 1 block if holding anything more than a nap sack.....

They don't raise Charisma. Their description clearly states that they are dice pool modifiers, and that they have no effect on magical abilities and tests. Still useful for a high-Charisma mage who wants to also be a face.

My bad...

Is there errata available for Augmentation somewhere anyway? (Other than also buying the german edition..)

So really if you want to boost CHA, you're limited to Genetic Optimization (CHA) and Exceptional Attribute (CHA), then spending the BP's karma to rock it up to 10.

That'd make me de-facto Face and give me something like 15 - 16 dice to resist drain. That's Force 10 spells with no effect, all day long (with platelet factory and/or trauma damper), right?

I don't think there is. If there was, it would be here: http://www.shadowrun4.com/resources/index.shtml#errata

There is also the metagenetic improvement you can get from SURGE. So 11. But remember, it is Magic rating, not Charisma, that determines whether you are overcasting. Fifteen dice and a trauma dampener will usually soak about 6 points of Drain, but if you continually do it, you will eventually run out of luck and roll poorly on Drain resistance.

Yeah I wouldn't be tossing around F10 stuff on the regular - that's likely a great way to get my DM to orbital drop a jarhead on my position. But it'll be nice for summoning a high Force spirit when necessary, or f10 stunballs

As I read it, the roll for soaking drain would apply before the Trauma dampener. As such, while it will help when you roll badly, you would not want to count on it for the normal case, since in any case where it helps, you have to end up with at least one box of damage.

With 15 dice, if you want an 80% chance of soaking all the drain, you would only be willing to accept 4 drain.
At 5 drain, (with Trauma Damper) you are looking at a 60% chance of totally soaking, and a 20% chance of 1 P. (The other 20% of the time, it is worse.) Adding the trauma dampener increase the 1P drain region to 31% at 5 drain. (Shadowrun dice have a very large standard deviation.)

There's always lip-reading. Yes, my mage took points in it. Hard to follow many people talking though. However, I'm fairly certain that Dreadlord's comment is correct.



I've never played with a GM that counts either Race or Magic against the limit. Mages have enough problems as it is, but more relevantly, the order of character creation is Metatype, Attributes (which includes Magic), Skills, Qualities, and then Resources. Everyone I game with agrees that Qualities are picked up in step four and used as a method to tweak or flesh out your character, they are NOT the points you spend at the start of character creation. YMMV, some people get aneurysms at the thought of using anyone's logic other than the game designer's. Me, I've met too many game designers to follow that plan.

You can really build your character in any order, since nothing's final 'til it's final. Attributes, Gear, Metatype, Qualities, and Adept Powers all affect all the other things and there's really nothing that can absolutely be done first, and the only thing that can really be done absolutely last is Knowledge Skills.

On to a new topic of contention;

Mentor Spirits - people have mentioned them helping with drain. Is that just referencing their +2 dice for the appropriate spell of schools, or did I miss a general 'coping with drain' benefit in there somewhere?

Are Ally Spirits worth the effort involved in obtaining them? What's the general consensus on Long-term binding (year and a day) referenced in Street Magic (paying for the binding with Karma)

35 point limit for Positive Qualities - does buying Negative Qualities allow you buy more Positive, if you want/need to?

for a net of 70 pts positive qualities and 35 points in negative qualities?

Nope !
the Limit is 35 Points for Positives and 35 for Negatives not More

@Trigger
You don't have to Manifest to Eavesdrop
You only have to if you want to communicate with a mundane Person

Hough !
Medicienman

Thanks Medicineman!

ARGH, two BP left. I guess I could grab a specialization - not much else that costs two BP far as I can tell.


Also, is there any Cyber/Bio other than Genetic Optimization that will boost Intuition?

If, as a Mage or Mystic Adept, you want straight boosts to your attributes and initiative, you can do it with spells and Sustaining Foci. This is the only way to improve Mental attributes other than logic- all other boosts, such as from various wares, help give dice to attribute-linked skill tests, but don't increase the attribute itself, and so do not help with drain tests.

Advantages- you can get Augmented Max ratings for mental attributes, which is not otherwise possible except for logic (using Cerebral Boosters).
You can do it without losing any essence and therefore Magic.
Still works if you use Surge II to get a Mental attributes up to an Augmented Max of 10.
The spell drain is very low.

Disadvantages- Spells can be dispelled, cause problems going through wards, and can be seen on the astral.
You need to cast the spells and get 4-5 hits.
You need to spend positive quality points on Restricted Gear (5 points each, up to 3 times) if you want to start play with them.
Sustaining foci cost a bunch of BP's to buy and bond.
You are limited in how many foci can be active by your logic.
Having foci on all the time may cause your GM to give you Focus Addiction.

Basically, the way it works for attributes, you get the spell Increase [Attribute] for the particular attribute that you want to increase. You spend 5 Positive Quality Points for the right to purchase a Sustaining Focus (Health) 5. You buy up your attribute to 4 for an Augmented Max of 9, or 5 for an Augemented Max of 10 (due to Surge or Dwarf). You pay 15 BP to purchase and bond the focus. You cast the spell, and when you have a casting with 5 hits, you use the Sustaining Focus to lock it.

Due to the limits from Restricted Gear, you can buy 1-3 sustaining Foci this way, although I would save 1 purchase of Restricted Gear to get a Rating 4 Power Focus- very powerful and much cheaper to buy and bond at character creation than in game. Your humans (any tradition) and orks (Intuition based traditions only) can start with up to 19 dice of drain resistance if you Surge. Your dwarves can start with 20 dice in drain resistance, with Surge. Because the rating limit on sustaining foci even with restricted gear is 5 and you need to cast the spell at the current attribute rating for it to work, Elves using Charisma can only get 18 dice by using Surge on Charisma, hard capping it at 9, and then using spells and a focus on Willpower. Otherwise, they are maxed at 19 like humans and orks, if Surged.

For more IP's, check out Increase Reflexes. With a Rating 3 Sustaining Focus (available at character creation without Restricted Gear) you can get +2 Initiative and +2 IP's, without losing essence. It has the same disadvantages as above, of course.

Anyway, there are some options for you, in case you want to forgo the essence-loss route for the healthier, but riskier, magical increases.

Does a Power Focus add it's rating to Drain tests as well? I thought it just added to casting dice.

That'd be, let's see...

9 or 10 in Attribute (Base 4 or 5 plus Force 5 Imp. Intuition on the Sustain Focus)
5 in Willpower
4 Power Focus

for 19 dice to soak, plus Imp. Concentration (+1 or +2 dice)

up to 21 dice, so force 5 spells all day every day (while totally buffed) using the 4/1 success buy?

Hrm. That's pretty nasty.

Can you Genetic Optimization intuition? *digging out Augmentation* It appears that you can! +1 to the dice pool would boots me up to F6 spells unless there's an always-round-down rule somewhere I missed.

Bit off topic, but you can also do a pixie for the +willpower/+int, logic, or charisma for 35 BP. They also fly pretty darn fast along with their concealment power = magic rating penalty to perception, makes them a great mage. If you're allowing surge, you may as well go pixie or nosferatu (if you like the interesting idea of magic 4 base + 6 drained magic for 10 magic, its pretty cool).

I'd like to keep to standard races (for now) - most of the other players are new to the game, so I want to look 'normal' to them; I just want to be able to bring the pain if necessary.

Power Focus does not help with drain. But you can improve Willpower AND the other attribute for 18-20 dice. I wouldn't Genetic Optimize on this route, as it loses you Essence and therefore Magic. Also, the buying successes is only supposed to be in non-stressful situations, although that is by GM decision.

Ahhh, I see. Hrm. I already have some 1 magic lost from cyberware/bioware, so I can fit about .2 essence after Trauma Damper, platelet factory, eyes, jack, and Commlimk ( as calculated by SR4CharGen). I'll have to wait for nuyen after starting the game ( or change around my negative qualities for some heavy In Debt) but I could fit in the GeneOpt after that...