The source of magic in SR...., NOT what you may think Options

[StealthSigma]

You've been reading Irene Radford's Dragon Nimbus serieses, haven't you?

(That world's magic didn't exactly "come" from dragons, though they were part of the process)

Never heard of it.

I felt that my first response for where magic came from was too disgusting/crude.

[Draco18s]

Never heard of it.

I felt that my first response for where magic came from was too disgusting/crude.

I figured you hadn't (and got the joke). Here's book 1, at some point in one of the series they allude to magic only working because of dragons--at least, the Nice Clean Magic that doesn't Hurt People (aka Blood Magic). There's also a type of tree that is kinda drug-like that can augment magical strength, but can kill you in high doses (dragons eat the leaves of this tree, which is why "dragon magic" is safe: they processed it first--hence the appropriate connection to dragon farts).

[Neraph]

Off-topic in spoilers to save room

[ Spoiler ]

Are you looking for a human visible spectrum photograph, or any spectral photo?

Here's an article with a measurement of a solar flare on a star 150 light years away http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/...71219103049.htm

Here's another article http://heasarc.gsfc.nasa.gov/docs/swift/news/2006/06-93.html

I suspect you know this, and that's why you asked specifically for a photograph, but we can measure any of the activities you mentioned on other starts in a variety of ways, but given that the visible part of the light humans can register is so small, its degraded to the point were getting an actual photograph of that sort of event is nearly impossible. Which is why we use the data we do receive (radiation levels, x-rays, spectral analysis) to reconstruct the event in a way that politicians and laymen can understand. Taxpayers foot the bill for NASA projects and taxpayers dont want research papers, they want pretty pictures.

This is interesting.

I think people didn't notice this, but I never said I don't believe that the stars we see are like our own sun, I just said that I was unaware (and doubtful) of any proof that they are. I did not take into account the possibility of spectropic imaging (although it did cross my mind after posting).

Now, this still does not mean that you A) know how stars form, or B) know the age of a star.

For example: you walk into a room, and see a 7-inch candle burning. You measure it, and find out that in one hour the candle burns 1 inch. When was the candle lit? You must assume 1) The rate of burn has remained constant, and 2) the candle was X tall in order to figure out when it was lit. Both are assumptions and if either is wrong, the final answer is also wrong. We are the same way with stars (and many, many other things... Draco Equasion anyone? Like 3 or 4 variables that are guess-taments in that thing).

On topic: It is interesting that dragons being cool with magic never really appeared until Tolkein (or at least, he made the idea of intelligent dragons popular). I kind of like the idea of feral dragons that are little more than extremely powerful animals.

[Draco18s]

Off-topic in spoilers to save room

[ Spoiler ]

This is interesting.

I think people didn't notice this, but I never said I don't believe that the stars we see are like our own sun, I just said that I was unaware (and doubtful) of any proof that they are. I did not take into account the possibility of spectropic imaging (although it did cross my mind after posting).

Now, this still does not mean that you A) know how stars form, or B) know the age of a star.

For example: you walk into a room, and see a 7-inch candle burning. You measure it, and find out that in one hour the candle burns 1 inch. When was the candle lit? You must assume 1) The rate of burn has remained constant, and 2) the candle was X tall in order to figure out when it was lit. Both are assumptions and if either is wrong, the final answer is also wrong. We are the same way with stars (and many, many other things... Draco Equasion anyone? Like 3 or 4 variables that are guess-taments in that thing).

On topic: It is interesting that dragons being cool with magic never really appeared until Tolkein (or at least, he made the idea of intelligent dragons popular). I kind of like the idea of feral dragons that are little more than extremely powerful animals.

[ Spoiler ]

There's a bit more you can do than just measuring the current height of the candle and the rate at which it burns. In relation to stars, I don't know what this is, just that I know it exists.

Wikipedia has this to say:

Using the stellar spectrum, astronomers can also determine the surface temperature, surface gravity, metallicity and rotational velocity of a star. If the distance of the star is known, such as by measuring the parallax, then the luminosity of the star can be derived. The mass, radius, surface gravity, and rotation period can then be estimated based on stellar models. (Mass can be measured directly for stars in binary systems. The technique of gravitational microlensing will also yield the mass of a star.⁹⁷) With these parameters, astronomers can also estimate the age of the star.⁹⁸

Tolkien was a great, imaginative man. We have him to thank for modern dwarves, modern elves, modern dragons,* some aspects of magic, and the first fantasy epic.**

*Whatever that might mean. Smaug was obviously not a modern thinking dragon. Whatever that might mean.

**At the time of the publishing of LOTR it was considered taboo to publish a fantasy novel over 1000 pages long, and IIRC, they are each about 996 pages long. I don't have my copies on hand to check.

[Neraph]

[ Spoiler ]

There's a bit more you can do than just measuring the current height of the candle and the rate at which it burns. In relation to stars, I don't know what this is, just that I know it exists.

Wikipedia has this to say:

Tolkien was a great, imaginative man. We have him to thank for modern dwarves, modern elves, modern dragons,* some aspects of magic, and the first fantasy epic.**

*Whatever that might mean. Smaug was obviously not a modern thinking dragon. Whatever that might mean.

**At the time of the publishing of LOTR it was considered taboo to publish a fantasy novel over 1000 pages long, and IIRC, they are each about 996 pages long. I don't have my copies on hand to check.

[ Spoiler ]

I have serious doubts on the distances they find using parallax. It's equivalent to using two points 2 inches away and trying to find the distance from Chicago to Pensacola. I know the math involved, but I cannot believe their claim to accurately measure that small of an angle. And I sure do hope they're not measuring things through the earth's atmosphere - just the distortion of the atmosphere would be able to radically skew the readings.

I do prefer Tolkein's elves to Santa's elves, by far.

[Draco18s]

[ Spoiler ]

I have serious doubts on the distances they find using parallax. It's equivalent to using two points 2 inches away and trying to find the distance from Chicago to Pensacola. I know the math involved, but I cannot believe their claim to accurately measure that small of an angle. And I sure do hope they're not measuring things through the earth's atmosphere - just the distortion of the atmosphere would be able to radically skew the readings.

[ Spoiler ]

They don't. They use satellites in orbit. Even so, its equivalent to drawing lines to the sides of a 2cm object at over 5km distance away.

[Neraph]

[ Spoiler ]

They don't. They use satellites in orbit. Even so, its equivalent to drawing lines to the sides of a 2cm object at over 5km distance away.

[ Spoiler ]

I have an extremely difficult time believing they can measure that small of a degree difference. And there are many other factors, such as the corresponding object's movement in the 6 month wait to take the other measurement. There have been astrologists who are quoted as saying how they cannot accurately measure distances of over 100 lightyears, yet there exist measurements in the thousands and millions (IIRC) of lightyears.

[Draco18s]

[ Spoiler ]

I have an extremely difficult time believing they can measure that small of a degree difference. And there are many other factors, such as the corresponding object's movement in the 6 month wait to take the other measurement. There have been astrologists who are quoted as saying how they cannot accurately measure distances of over 100 lightyears, yet there exist measurements in the thousands and millions (IIRC) of lightyears.

[ Spoiler ]

Not being an astronomer (astrology is something different!) I have no more to say on the matter

[Snow_Fox]

Tolkien did not so much as invent the intelligent dragon/dwarves/dlves but rediscovered them. His great litterary work was not the fantasy tales of hobbits et al but translating nearly lost scandanavian folklore. Christian demogogues tried to destroy such tales and reduce serpents to beasts of Satan. Which of course hsould not be capable of inteligent conversation.

Tolkien rescued from oblivion the Oxidental dragon,he didn't invent them though eastern cultures were always able to hold onto the image of the dragon as powerful, magical and extraordinarily dangerous to be around.

I remember hearing somewhere, I can't remember where (but I don't think it's SR related,) that Dragon's were a measure of magic in the world. that their existance was a reflection of the magic in the world. as the Dark ages (circa 455-1066 CE) came to an end these legends were dying out and fading as the world became more practical. As they return the world is more magical. do they create the magic or just need it to survive? That's up for grabs but remember, the awakening is officially marked by the appearance of a great Dragon. that must mean something.

[Doc Byte]

That implies that all you need to do is simply kill ALL the Horrors and ALL the Passions and everyone will have magic forever and ever and ever.

Reminds me of Equinox.

[Hagga]

[ Spoiler ]

There's a bit more you can do than just measuring the current height of the candle and the rate at which it burns. In relation to stars, I don't know what this is, just that I know it exists.

Wikipedia has this to say:

Tolkien was a great, imaginative man. We have him to thank for modern dwarves, modern elves, modern dragons,* some aspects of magic, and the first fantasy epic.**

*Whatever that might mean. Smaug was obviously not a modern thinking dragon. Whatever that might mean.

**At the time of the publishing of LOTR it was considered taboo to publish a fantasy novel over 1000 pages long, and IIRC, they are each about 996 pages long. I don't have my copies on hand to check.

Smaug wasn't quite a modern dragon, but he came close and was probably the most outright magical thing in Middle Earth, not counting the Ring and the Istari.

[Neraph]

[ Spoiler ]

Not being an astronomer (astrology is something different!) I have no more to say on the matter

[ Spoiler ]

tomatoe potatoe

Tolkien did not so much as invent the intelligent dragon/dwarves/dlves but rediscovered them. His great litterary work was not the fantasy tales of hobbits et al but translating nearly lost scandanavian folklore. Christian demogogues tried to destroy such tales and reduce serpents to beasts of Satan. Which of course hsould not be capable of inteligent conversation.

Um... Not really? The Bible actually teaches that dragons were simply the name for dinosaurs before Richard Owen bastardized two different languages to bring us "dinosaur" (with dino coming from the Greek deinos which means "fearful" and saur being latin for lizard). For instance, the unicorn mentioned in the Bible is probably referring to something like the monoclonius or styracosaurus, while the leviathan is possibly an elasmosaurus or plesiosaur, and the behemoth is probably something like an apatosaurus or more likely the brachiosaurus. A lot of problems happened in the "Dark Ages" where the Catholic church attempted to (and largely succeeded in) controlling the information of the populace, and a lot of the knowledge of the Bible was lost (and is now being rediscovered).

[Draco18s]

Smaug wasn't quite a modern dragon, but he came close and was probably the most outright magical thing in Middle Earth, not counting the Ring and the Istari.

Hence "whatever that might mean." In the sense in which it applies to Smaug, I mean a dragon with an intelligence surpassing that of most other mortal creatures--shame he was ignorant about his Achilles Heel. Scale. Belly plate scute* hole thing.

But your're right, he wasn't a modern dragon, one who moves with the times and gets himself some of the latest gadgets and gizmos--be they the SOTA computerized shiznit or just an army of human pawns with catapults. Or a modern thinking dragon who accepts gay relationships, the internet, going to college, and getting a real job (like being president).

*There's a new word for most people.

[Tyro]

[ Spoiler ]

tomatoe potatoe

Umm, astrology and astronomy, while related in that they both deal with heavenly bodies (and astrology uses astronomy heavily for reference), are VERY VERY DIFFERENT.

[Neraph]

Umm, astrology and astronomy, while related in that they both deal with heavenly bodies (and astrology uses astronomy heavily for reference), are VERY VERY DIFFERENT.

That time I was being facetious. The similar names got me, like Elijah/Elisha, astronomy/astrology, and a few others. Luckily I'm finally able to keep erotic/erratic correct (which lead to some interesting conversations, before I could...).

[Tyro]

That time I was being facetious. The similar names got me, like Elijah/Elisha, astronomy/astrology, and a few others. Luckily I'm finally able to keep erotic/erratic correct (which lead to some interesting conversations, before I could...).

I would pay to see/hear those conversations (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

[Saint Sithney]

I like to treat magic like a massive Acid trip, which is sort of fitting since the population % of Awakened people matches up with the % of Schizophrenics. The Awakened Character can see the world in a far more essential way. To one who has access to the Astral, the surface veneer of the common is stripped away, leaving a world of meanings, instead of a world of forms. To a person such as that, there is an understanding that the physical world is composed of ideas, and by manipulating ideas, one can alter the physical world.

The Shaman accomplishes this by means of personality. Their personal force is so great that they can alter the reality of a thing by an exertion of will. A good example of this would be the King of the Moon from The Adventures of Baron Munchausen. The Lunatic King can trap others in his lunacy. The Hermetic functions with a far more mathematical understanding of these things. He bends reason in order to prove that something has happened, so that it will. Sort of like the (I want to say Douglas Adams - maybe Alan Moore from Miracleman?) trope of moving a spaceship with a mathematical equation which proves that you're already at your destination. Point being that the hermetic mage uses his belief and understanding to conform reality to fit his desire.

A mystic adept has this understanding, though he does not necessarily see things in their nature as meaning distilled. He is still caught up in the world of forms and will not abandon it. Sort of like the river fish who can swim all the way up and down the river, but can not imagine the ocean, the MA can imagine the ocean, but he just can't swim its salty waters. He knows his reality is a prison, but he has decided it is his prison. The adept, on the other hand, concentrates his beliefs using his body as the meditative focus, working from the "cogito ergo sum" base. He bends not the world, but himself.

Drain from using magic comes, not from the physical exertion, but from the pressure put on the character's sanity. Every time that they alter reality, they disprove themselves, their world, their purpose. The very absurdity of living in an irrational world pushes them towards a catatonia, taking will, or, more spectacularly, life, out of them. The sort of stun damage they take isn't bruises, but ennui. Except for Adepts using Attribute Boost. That's just some straight up bruises.

[Hagga]

I like to treat magic like a massive Acid trip, which is sort of fitting since the population % of Awakened people matches up with the % of Schizophrenics. The Awakened Character can see the world in a far more essential way. To one who has access to the Astral, the surface veneer of the common is stripped away, leaving a world of meanings, instead of a world of forms. To a person such as that, there is an understanding that the physical world is composed of ideas, and by manipulating ideas, one can alter the physical world.

The Shaman accomplishes this by means of personality. Their personal force is so great that they can alter the reality of a thing by an exertion of will. A good example of this would be the King of the Moon from The Adventures of Baron Munchausen. The Lunatic King can trap others in his lunacy. The Hermetic functions with a far more mathematical understanding of these things. He bends reason in order to prove that something has happened, so that it will. Sort of like the (I want to say Douglas Adams - maybe Alan Moore from Miracleman?) trope of moving a spaceship with a mathematical equation which proves that you're already at your destination. Point being that the hermetic mage uses his belief and understanding to conform reality to fit his desire.

A mystic adept has this understanding, though he does not necessarily see things in their nature as meaning distilled. He is still caught up in the world of forms and will not abandon it. Sort of like the river fish who can swim all the way up and down the river, but can not imagine the ocean, the MA can imagine the ocean, but he just can't swim its salty waters. He knows his reality is a prison, but he has decided it is his prison. The adept, on the other hand, concentrates his beliefs using his body as the meditative focus, working from the "cogito ergo sum" base. He bends not the world, but himself.

Drain from using magic comes, not from the physical exertion, but from the pressure put on the character's sanity. Every time that they alter reality, they disprove themselves, their world, their purpose. The very absurdity of living in an irrational world pushes them towards a catatonia, taking will, or, more spectacularly, life, out of them. The sort of stun damage they take isn't bruises, but ennui. Except for Adepts using Attribute Boost. That's just some straight up bruises.

Someone's been playing a little too much Mage: The (Awakening/AScension).

[Saint Sithney]

More like too much Joseph Campbell and comic books.

Both of which were highly influential in the creation of SR. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Hagga]

That said, I tend to treat it as starting with a common thing - either pulling in mana from the astral plane, or pulling it from a spirit, such as a Mentor spirit or Kami. Or themselves, for blood magic or in an ebb or void. From there, it depends on the player's tradition. A Shinto Priest takes the flavoured mana from a Kami and shapes it as desired, harmonising it with the world and the kami of the objects it does affect. Any drain suffered is from negotiating badly with the Kami. A Hermetic or Chaos mage slams it through a complex symbolic formula - the drain is overbleed, excess mana drawn. A Black Magician reaches out with his will and channels it straight through his body, using willpower to keep it away from the "sides" of the mana channel - drain is mana touching the sides. Like Operation, really. A shaman taps the mana inherent in the natural world - the bedrock or the ocean. Drain is from inexpert handling of the vast power of the earth. Whatever my players want to use.

Adepts are just putting in extra effort for the more physical bits - ever tried doing more than your 1RM at the gym? Like that. The extra effort is what lets them summon the strength or speed to do it. Other than that, it's just something that develops over time. It happens naturally. They notice themselves getting faster, and faster and faster until they've got 4IP and 9 Rea. Or 5, I guess. I wish it was possible to get 5IP outside of the Matrix. Some of the active powers are a little dicey, but I just say "it's an extra sense or physical capability. Feels completely natural."

Edit: Oh, and if an adept learns some really beyond the pale, like "Limited astral projection", it acts the same way. With a learned reflex he kicks free of his body and.. surprise!

[StealthSigma]

Tolkien was a great, imaginative man. We have him to thank for modern dwarves, modern elves, modern dragons,* some aspects of magic, and the first fantasy epic.**

I certainly don't thank him for THEM*.

* THEM being fancy pants elves** that piss me off.
** Yes I realize that Blood Elves*** from WoW fall into this category.
*** Yes I realize that I play a Blood Elf, but he's a paladin**** so I have an excuse.
**** When Cataclysm comes out, I am seriously considering paying for a race change to Tauren just so I don't have to be a friggin elf*****.
***** I realize that I may have undue hatred for elves, but who can blame me when you see a bunch of elves running around in MMOs with names that are variations of Legolas and Sephiroth******.
****** Due to his popularity******* and fanboi base, I consider Sephiroth an elf.
******* There are farm more cooler Final Fantasy villains********, like Kefka.
******** Pokey from Earthbound********* is cooler than Sephiroth.
********* If you haven't played Earthbound, you should. It's ballin'.

[McCummhail]

Tolkien isn't to blame for Blood Elves.

Elves, especially the Sidhe were around before him.

I would blame metrosexuals and the people that cause things like Twilight to occur.

Maybe that is the source of Elven magic?

[Brazilian_Shinob...]

Tolkien isn't to blame for Blood Elves.

Elves, especially the Sidhe were around before him.

I would blame metrosexuals and the people that cause things like Twilight to occur.

Maybe that is the source of Elven magic?

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/rollin.gif)

QFT

[etherial]

I wouldn't blame metrosexuals for anything other than increased hygiene standards. An all-around positive, I think.

[McCummhail]

I wouldn't blame metrosexuals for anything other than increased hygiene standards. An all-around positive, I think.

It is more than likely an overall positive trend,
but you could blame them for a lot more than that.

Can we at least give them a different name?
Do they reproduce by mass transit?
Was it some kind of bad pun riffing on Sex in the City?