In-Debt, Too good or totally useless? Options

[Karoline]

So, I always find myself having to ask every GM the following question: Do I have to pay karma to pay off 'In-Debt' when I pay back the nuyen?

To which I sometimes get a yes and sometimes a no. Usually been yes it seems though. So my question is what do other people think?

I'm sure this has been asked before on the boards, but I'll ask again anyway.

The way I see the two arguments are as follows:

Yes - You should have to pay back the karma because when you remove other negative qualities you generally have to pay karma to do so. When doing a gene treatment to remove an allergy it goes wrong if you don't pay the karma to get rid of it. If you are blind and get cybereyes, the surgery goes wrong or doesn't take if you don't pay the karma. And of course if you didn't have to pay back the karma you'd be getting a bunch of BP for 'free'.

No - When you have to pay karma to remove a quality through in-game means it is always spelled out; blind and gene treatment for allergies both specifically mention the requirement of paying back karma while In-Debt does not. It also makes the quality virtually pointless because you have no net gain in BP (and perhaps a loss since you have to pay it back in karma and 2x karma is usually worth more than BP) and a net loss in nuyen (gain 5k per 5BP and lose 7.5k + interest).

Personally I'm inclined to agree that you shouldn't have to pay the karma because it makes the quality useless. You either screw any chance of your character advancing for the first 10-70 karma gained or you have a permanent drain on your nuyen. It also just doesn't make alot of sense that your character would somehow be unable to pay his debt off if she can't fork up the karma (The lone shark is always out whenever you want to pay him off?), or that being debt free would stunt your ability to learn anything for the next year or so. I do understand the concern that once you've paid off the nuyen (Which if done quickly can be a net loss of only .5 BP per 5BP gained from the quality) you have no lasting penalty as you do for other qualities. Like I said though, I like the not paying it option as having to pay it off with karma means I'd never take it even for really good story reasons because it would so seriously cripple my character.

[BnF95]

Considering that the debt starts of at 150% of the amount borrowed, with 10% interest per month (actually in our games we tend to use a more 'friendly' figure of a straight 110% of the amount borrowed at 10% compounded monthly), to date, only 1 player character has been able to pay of their debt so far, the rest ... they are all still trying to raise the funds. If I had them pay off the karma as well, these players would be hosed.

Imagine gaining 15K:nuyen: that means that at the start of the campaign, the character owes 22,500, with an additional 2,250 per month (as per game rules), now unless your campaign is cash and karma rich, paying of that debt is hard, but not impossible.

With my group's version, the initial 15K debt becomes 16.5K at the start of the campaign and going up ... fast.
1st month - 18,150
2nd month - 19,965
3rd month - 21,962
4th month - 24,159
5th month - 26,575
6th month - 29,233

and so on and so forth. Oh, of course, in addition, you may have to do a few 'favors' to the people you borrowed the cash from.

There is the possibility of just paying off the interest at first to keep the amount borrowed low though.

[Glyph]

I say that you should have to pay the karma, same as you would for removing any other negative quality. It shouldn't have to specifically spell it out - other negative qualities don't. Having to pay to remove negative qualities is the established rule - the burden falls on the In Debt quality to spell it out if it is an exception to that rule. That's my take on the RAW.

As far as individual tables go, it depends. If the monetary debt alone is crushing, then maybe the GM doesn't need to charge Karma on top of that. On the other hand, what if the team does a high-paying job, and the character pays off the money and interest after the first run? It's one of those things like deciding whether to charge someone Karma for turning into a ghoul or not (my general opinion is that the GM should only do so if the player sought out the infection deliberately). So I could house rule it or not, depending on the campaign.

My general gut instinct is to make them pay Karma to get rid of it, though, because negative qualities should be treated equally. On the other hand, if you let players get rid of other flaws (such as Enemy or Bad Reputation) with roleplaying, then In Debt should be handled the same way.

[Draco18s]

I think I'll be in a "yes but" group. If the character pays it off after the first run it wasn't really a flaw and should take the karma too.

[Tsuul]

For those advocating paying karma as well as cash to remove it, what are the negatives once the cash part is paid off? The loan shark is still going to keep the interest on 0 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) running?

[Da9iel]

I believe the opinion on karma payment is that there are snafus anytime a character tries to pay more than interest. Matrix glitch, courier stole the cred, the loan was sold to another party, but not the payments, etc. If I went with this option, a character who paid the full amount plus one month's interest would get bugged for another payment after 11 months.

edit: Losing 3000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) a month into a money pit is much less crippling than most other 20 pt flaws (negative qualities, whatever).

[etherial]

I'd go for Karma OR nuyen, but not both.

[Falconer]

For those advocating paying karma as well as cash to remove it, what are the negatives once the cash part is paid off? The loan shark is still going to keep the interest on 0 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) running?

Quite simply, the in-debt portion negative quality doesn't go away, only it's cash value changes.

The character is still left w/ a 'contact' who has at best rating 1 loyalty and god knows what connections who isn't necessarily friendly. Since the character obviously had the power to enforce the debt... he had the power to track him down... and is probably quite amenable to being bought off by interests hostile to the player. He still might try to make other money by blackmailing the character or other similar activity even after the monetary value of the debt is gone. For example, at 30BP it might be a full fledged mafia don (6/1) coming after you for a 'favor', while at 10BP... a 2/1 loan shark selling out your safehouse or sells his blood sample, he took as a guarantee you'd pay to another street mage who needs a ritual link to you. There's a lot of room in there to make the characters life 'interesting'.

The quality itself says it can have it's cash value paid off.

Another problem I see which crops up a bit from others experience. Is that the value of the debt should be significant to the games power/treasure level. If there's a lot of cash and it's easy to buy off the book value... the amount of the debt should probably be increased by the GM at the start of play. (EG: instead of owing 50% more than cash... maybe 100% or more as apt to the GM's intended game resource level).

[Da9iel]

I know the quality itself says the debt can be bought off, but for those advocating that karma must be spent to remove the quality, an interpretation that karma must be spent proportional to the principle paid off is IMO valid. I'm leaning this way myself. 49500 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) (the quickest payoff for the -30 BP quality) for an equivalent to 60 karma is much too good. That's like getting 20 free build points (30 minus 10 BP worth of cash) if you can pay it off quickly. The quality should not be free build points.

[toturi]

I'd say that you'd have to spend karma to get rid of In Debt but... you can pay nuyen to reduce the amount owed. Thus you can be In-Debt but owe 0 nuyen.

[Da9iel]

What would be the effect of 0 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) In-Debt, according to Cannon the SR bookninja of RAW-Fu?

[AngelisStorm]

Think it is Black Company which has the inn keep who, no matter how much money he makes, just can't seem to pay off that loan shark of his...

I also thought there was a rule or guideline or suggestion somewhere, that said something along the lines of "if you fix your negative quality, without paying it off in karma, you get a new one to replace it." Of course, that could be 7th Sea. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smokin.gif)

I would run it something along the lines of: the loanshark pulls out the paperwork, and shows where it says you can't pay off more than 25% of your debt a month (hopefully the player will find something to buy before he can pay off the loan 4 months later), something "comes up" that ties the payment up (gets mugged, bookie "isn't it," whatever), or, if the player manages to pay it off... give him a low level enemy, because the Loan Shark is pissed he got out of the money trap. (Or something along those lines: "Deep Regret" that he had to borrow money, or the reason he needed to borrow it, or something like that).

[toturi]

The effect of having a 0 nuyen In Debt Quality would be to have to pay 0 nuyen and you still have the In Debt Quality for good or ill.

[Dakka Dakka]

I also agree that In Debt should be bought off like any other negative quality. I agree this makes the negative quality one of the less effective ones. The more sneaky option, if you want to take this quality, is paying all of the debt but 10¥ at the first possibility, then you have to pay 1¥/month and no need to spend Karma. You do however still have a liaison with a criminal organisation for better or worse.

Now I have a different question, should it be possible to remove the debt without paying the money? For instance by killing the loan shark and destroying the records or inciting a mob war which wipes out the crediting criminal organization?

[Ascalaphus]

Now I have a different question, should it be possible to remove the debt without paying the money? For instance by killing the loan shark and destroying the records or inciting a mob war which wipes out the crediting criminal organization?

Sure. And if you pay the Karma, you might get away with it..

[Delarn]

I changed my mind yeaterday I said no on the poll ! But now, if you pay each level separately. IE you got in dept 6 (30 points) then you have to pay the money or Karma, 10 point of Karmar per level.

[Medicineman]

Its a Disadvantage
To get rid of a Disadvantage you have to pay Karma.
you have to pay the Money back ingame and than its not a Disad anymore and you have to pay Karma to get rid of it

Now I have a different question, should it be possible to remove the debt without paying the money? For instance by killing the loan shark and destroying the records or inciting a mob war which wipes out the crediting criminal organization?
Shure it's possible ingame, but then you're switching one Disadvantage with another one.
Its the same with an Enemy. If you Kill your Enemy ingame ,but don't pay in Karma, your GM should switch to another (logical) Disadvantage

Hough !
Medicineman

[Ascalaphus]

Seattle 2072 has notes on a number of bars/hotels/clubs/restaurants who were financed by the Mob (any mob). Although they've paid off their debts, the mobsters still come there and still have influence. That's a good example of a 0 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) debt.


Getting rid of a debt would take the karma, and either money or some other "deed"; a major favor to the mob, or scaring them enough that they won't come after you, or..

You pay the karma to "make it stick".

[BRodda]

What would be the effect of 0 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) In-Debt, according to Cannon the SR bookninja of RAW-Fu?

The effect is that "You Owe Me!". There are some groups that even if you pay them off they still own you; the Mafia, the Yaks, ect...

Also even if its just the local cyberdoc, you still owe them for the favor of lending you the money or credit. Until you pay it off in Karma you still owe them for that favor. And if you don't pay back the favor by doing other favors your rep takes a hit.
"Fragger wouldn't even keep lookout for the Doc on a medical call. Frager owes him his eyes and he wouldn't even use them to help out Doc. MAin remind me not to do him any favors, he'll never pay it back."

[Mäx]

I voted no, but if i ever get to play i will most likely try to talk the GM to rule that In-Debt doesn't actually count as a quality.
So you use the rules for the quality, but you don't get any extra karma from it in chargen and it doesn't count against the limit of negative qualities.
This is mostly becouse for my Sasha there are few negative qualities i'd like to take, but can't as i needed the extra (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) from the In-debt quality and personally it just doesn't make any sense for a chargen loan to count as a negative quality.
Doing it like that removes the "too much good thing" effect it has by RAW of giving you karma and money at chargen and just turns it into a method of getting extra money at chargen that you have to pay back once in-game.

[DWC]

I'd be inclined to believe that the loan shark is going to accept your lump payment, and use it to continue servicing the loan by drawing the required minimum payment from the pile of cred until that pile runs out. Then, he'll start the collections again.

It's a flaw. To get rid of the negative quality of the flaw, you have to pay double the BP in karma. They won't let you pay more than the minimum, because the shark can make so much more money by keeping you in debt.

[Fuchs]

I say that you should have to pay the karma, same as you would for removing any other negative quality. It shouldn't have to specifically spell it out - other negative qualities don't. Having to pay to remove negative qualities is the established rule - the burden falls on the In Debt quality to spell it out if it is an exception to that rule. That's my take on the RAW.

This. You can pay the loan off, but unless you pay the karma you're still "owing" - favors, most likely. Once a month, or so, something, small or big - small courier job, harboring someone, some info - you pay karma to get even.

Otherwise the negative quality is much too good.

[Summerstorm]

Hm... i am in the "NO"-Camp. The money should be enough.

See it that way: i syphons off money for "nothing" in return. Convert that to BP... that's what you lose. You stiffle your characters growth for a boost at the start.

Of course this Flaw (well it gives points, eh?) can be unbalancing, if your characters earn too much. So the Values should be adjusted by the GM if he plans on a high-paying specialist campaign.

I made two characters who have this flaw and found it well balanced. They COULD buy new stuff and such, but always had to balance the monthly payment, the lifestyle and the upgrades. And it takes MONTHS ingame to get rid of it, while others are saving up for a Move-by-Wire.

Ah well, MAYBE you could give him another Flawafter he paid it off, but for fewer points, or giving him negative Streetcred. (There is that dude who paid that crapload of cash to a loanshark, what a loser)

[Chrysalis]

As someone with debts with a bank. I feel that it has less to do with money of paying it off and more with karma.

[Kovu Muphasa]

What we have done in the past with Flaws like this that can be bought off in game play and with Karma is if you come with a reason to make it go away [I got the Cash] is you are still required to pay the Karma, but you could spend 1-2 points per Karma Award. If Spent the Karma though we would set up a game to "Pay Off" the Game Play Part.