So, I always find myself having to ask every GM the following question: Do I have to pay karma to pay off 'In-Debt' when I pay back the nuyen?

To which I sometimes get a yes and sometimes a no. Usually been yes it seems though. So my question is what do other people think?

I'm sure this has been asked before on the boards, but I'll ask again anyway.

The way I see the two arguments are as follows:

Yes - You should have to pay back the karma because when you remove other negative qualities you generally have to pay karma to do so. When doing a gene treatment to remove an allergy it goes wrong if you don't pay the karma to get rid of it. If you are blind and get cybereyes, the surgery goes wrong or doesn't take if you don't pay the karma. And of course if you didn't have to pay back the karma you'd be getting a bunch of BP for 'free'.

No - When you have to pay karma to remove a quality through in-game means it is always spelled out; blind and gene treatment for allergies both specifically mention the requirement of paying back karma while In-Debt does not. It also makes the quality virtually pointless because you have no net gain in BP (and perhaps a loss since you have to pay it back in karma and 2x karma is usually worth more than BP) and a net loss in nuyen (gain 5k per 5BP and lose 7.5k + interest).

Personally I'm inclined to agree that you shouldn't have to pay the karma because it makes the quality useless. You either screw any chance of your character advancing for the first 10-70 karma gained or you have a permanent drain on your nuyen. It also just doesn't make alot of sense that your character would somehow be unable to pay his debt off if she can't fork up the karma (The lone shark is always out whenever you want to pay him off?), or that being debt free would stunt your ability to learn anything for the next year or so. I do understand the concern that once you've paid off the nuyen (Which if done quickly can be a net loss of only .5 BP per 5BP gained from the quality) you have no lasting penalty as you do for other qualities. Like I said though, I like the not paying it option as having to pay it off with karma means I'd never take it even for really good story reasons because it would so seriously cripple my character.

Considering that the debt starts of at 150% of the amount borrowed, with 10% interest per month (actually in our games we tend to use a more 'friendly' figure of a straight 110% of the amount borrowed at 10% compounded monthly), to date, only 1 player character has been able to pay of their debt so far, the rest ... they are all still trying to raise the funds. If I had them pay off the karma as well, these players would be hosed.

Imagine gaining 15K:nuyen: that means that at the start of the campaign, the character owes 22,500, with an additional 2,250 per month (as per game rules), now unless your campaign is cash and karma rich, paying of that debt is hard, but not impossible.

With my group's version, the initial 15K debt becomes 16.5K at the start of the campaign and going up ... fast.
1st month - 18,150
2nd month - 19,965
3rd month - 21,962
4th month - 24,159
5th month - 26,575
6th month - 29,233

and so on and so forth. Oh, of course, in addition, you may have to do a few 'favors' to the people you borrowed the cash from.

There is the possibility of just paying off the interest at first to keep the amount borrowed low though.

I say that you should have to pay the karma, same as you would for removing any other negative quality. It shouldn't have to specifically spell it out - other negative qualities don't. Having to pay to remove negative qualities is the established rule - the burden falls on the In Debt quality to spell it out if it is an exception to that rule. That's my take on the RAW.

As far as individual tables go, it depends. If the monetary debt alone is crushing, then maybe the GM doesn't need to charge Karma on top of that. On the other hand, what if the team does a high-paying job, and the character pays off the money and interest after the first run? It's one of those things like deciding whether to charge someone Karma for turning into a ghoul or not (my general opinion is that the GM should only do so if the player sought out the infection deliberately). So I could house rule it or not, depending on the campaign.

My general gut instinct is to make them pay Karma to get rid of it, though, because negative qualities should be treated equally. On the other hand, if you let players get rid of other flaws (such as Enemy or Bad Reputation) with roleplaying, then In Debt should be handled the same way.

I think I'll be in a "yes but" group. If the character pays it off after the first run it wasn't really a flaw and should take the karma too.

For those advocating paying karma as well as cash to remove it, what are the negatives once the cash part is paid off? The loan shark is still going to keep the interest on 0 running?

I believe the opinion on karma payment is that there are snafus anytime a character tries to pay more than interest. Matrix glitch, courier stole the cred, the loan was sold to another party, but not the payments, etc. If I went with this option, a character who paid the full amount plus one month's interest would get bugged for another payment after 11 months.

edit: Losing 3000 a month into a money pit is much less crippling than most other 20 pt flaws (negative qualities, whatever).

I'd go for Karma OR nuyen, but not both.

Quite simply, the in-debt portion negative quality doesn't go away, only it's cash value changes.

The character is still left w/ a 'contact' who has at best rating 1 loyalty and god knows what connections who isn't necessarily friendly. Since the character obviously had the power to enforce the debt... he had the power to track him down... and is probably quite amenable to being bought off by interests hostile to the player. He still might try to make other money by blackmailing the character or other similar activity even after the monetary value of the debt is gone. For example, at 30BP it might be a full fledged mafia don (6/1) coming after you for a 'favor', while at 10BP... a 2/1 loan shark selling out your safehouse or sells his blood sample, he took as a guarantee you'd pay to another street mage who needs a ritual link to you. There's a lot of room in there to make the characters life 'interesting'.

The quality itself says it can have it's cash value paid off.

Another problem I see which crops up a bit from others experience. Is that the value of the debt should be significant to the games power/treasure level. If there's a lot of cash and it's easy to buy off the book value... the amount of the debt should probably be increased by the GM at the start of play. (EG: instead of owing 50% more than cash... maybe 100% or more as apt to the GM's intended game resource level).

I know the quality itself says the debt can be bought off, but for those advocating that karma must be spent to remove the quality, an interpretation that karma must be spent proportional to the principle paid off is IMO valid. I'm leaning this way myself. 49500 (the quickest payoff for the -30 BP quality) for an equivalent to 60 karma is much too good. That's like getting 20 free build points (30 minus 10 BP worth of cash) if you can pay it off quickly. The quality should not be free build points.

I'd say that you'd have to spend karma to get rid of In Debt but... you can pay nuyen to reduce the amount owed. Thus you can be In-Debt but owe 0 nuyen.

What would be the effect of 0 In-Debt, according to Cannon the SR bookninja of RAW-Fu?

Think it is Black Company which has the inn keep who, no matter how much money he makes, just can't seem to pay off that loan shark of his...

I also thought there was a rule or guideline or suggestion somewhere, that said something along the lines of "if you fix your negative quality, without paying it off in karma, you get a new one to replace it." Of course, that could be 7th Sea.

I would run it something along the lines of: the loanshark pulls out the paperwork, and shows where it says you can't pay off more than 25% of your debt a month (hopefully the player will find something to buy before he can pay off the loan 4 months later), something "comes up" that ties the payment up (gets mugged, bookie "isn't it," whatever), or, if the player manages to pay it off... give him a low level enemy, because the Loan Shark is pissed he got out of the money trap. (Or something along those lines: "Deep Regret" that he had to borrow money, or the reason he needed to borrow it, or something like that).

The effect of having a 0 nuyen In Debt Quality would be to have to pay 0 nuyen and you still have the In Debt Quality for good or ill.

I also agree that In Debt should be bought off like any other negative quality. I agree this makes the negative quality one of the less effective ones. The more sneaky option, if you want to take this quality, is paying all of the debt but 10¥ at the first possibility, then you have to pay 1¥/month and no need to spend Karma. You do however still have a liaison with a criminal organisation for better or worse.

Now I have a different question, should it be possible to remove the debt without paying the money? For instance by killing the loan shark and destroying the records or inciting a mob war which wipes out the crediting criminal organization?

Sure. And if you pay the Karma, you might get away with it..

I changed my mind yeaterday I said no on the poll ! But now, if you pay each level separately. IE you got in dept 6 (30 points) then you have to pay the money or Karma, 10 point of Karmar per level.

Its a Disadvantage
To get rid of a Disadvantage you have to pay Karma.
you have to pay the Money back ingame and than its not a Disad anymore and you have to pay Karma to get rid of it

Now I have a different question, should it be possible to remove the debt without paying the money? For instance by killing the loan shark and destroying the records or inciting a mob war which wipes out the crediting criminal organization?
Shure it's possible ingame, but then you're switching one Disadvantage with another one.
Its the same with an Enemy. If you Kill your Enemy ingame ,but don't pay in Karma, your GM should switch to another (logical) Disadvantage

Hough !
Medicineman

Seattle 2072 has notes on a number of bars/hotels/clubs/restaurants who were financed by the Mob (any mob). Although they've paid off their debts, the mobsters still come there and still have influence. That's a good example of a 0 debt.


Getting rid of a debt would take the karma, and either money or some other "deed"; a major favor to the mob, or scaring them enough that they won't come after you, or..

You pay the karma to "make it stick".

The effect is that "You Owe Me!". There are some groups that even if you pay them off they still own you; the Mafia, the Yaks, ect...

Also even if its just the local cyberdoc, you still owe them for the favor of lending you the money or credit. Until you pay it off in Karma you still owe them for that favor. And if you don't pay back the favor by doing other favors your rep takes a hit.
"Fragger wouldn't even keep lookout for the Doc on a medical call. Frager owes him his eyes and he wouldn't even use them to help out Doc. MAin remind me not to do him any favors, he'll never pay it back."

I voted no, but if i ever get to play i will most likely try to talk the GM to rule that In-Debt doesn't actually count as a quality.
So you use the rules for the quality, but you don't get any extra karma from it in chargen and it doesn't count against the limit of negative qualities.
This is mostly becouse for my Sasha there are few negative qualities i'd like to take, but can't as i needed the extra from the In-debt quality and personally it just doesn't make any sense for a chargen loan to count as a negative quality.
Doing it like that removes the "too much good thing" effect it has by RAW of giving you karma and money at chargen and just turns it into a method of getting extra money at chargen that you have to pay back once in-game.

I'd be inclined to believe that the loan shark is going to accept your lump payment, and use it to continue servicing the loan by drawing the required minimum payment from the pile of cred until that pile runs out. Then, he'll start the collections again.

It's a flaw. To get rid of the negative quality of the flaw, you have to pay double the BP in karma. They won't let you pay more than the minimum, because the shark can make so much more money by keeping you in debt.

This. You can pay the loan off, but unless you pay the karma you're still "owing" - favors, most likely. Once a month, or so, something, small or big - small courier job, harboring someone, some info - you pay karma to get even.

Otherwise the negative quality is much too good.

Hm... i am in the "NO"-Camp. The money should be enough.

See it that way: i syphons off money for "nothing" in return. Convert that to BP... that's what you lose. You stiffle your characters growth for a boost at the start.

Of course this Flaw (well it gives points, eh?) can be unbalancing, if your characters earn too much. So the Values should be adjusted by the GM if he plans on a high-paying specialist campaign.

I made two characters who have this flaw and found it well balanced. They COULD buy new stuff and such, but always had to balance the monthly payment, the lifestyle and the upgrades. And it takes MONTHS ingame to get rid of it, while others are saving up for a Move-by-Wire.

Ah well, MAYBE you could give him another Flawafter he paid it off, but for fewer points, or giving him negative Streetcred. (There is that dude who paid that crapload of cash to a loanshark, what a loser)

As someone with debts with a bank. I feel that it has less to do with money of paying it off and more with karma.

What we have done in the past with Flaws like this that can be bought off in game play and with Karma is if you come with a reason to make it go away [I got the Cash] is you are still required to pay the Karma, but you could spend 1-2 points per Karma Award. If Spent the Karma though we would set up a game to "Pay Off" the Game Play Part.

You guys do realize that the GM controls the cash flow of the characters completely. If the GM wants the flaw to stick around he doesn't have to make up additional rules.
If this flaw can get bought out after one session, feel free to say 'No' to the player.

Karma should be a way to buy off the flaw, but so should flat out paying it back. Loansharks that make up debts don't stay in business for long. (Creative payments for outstanding debt, however, are expected.)

So far most everyone has said that you should have to pay it back, but no one has answered the question of why you would ever bother taking the quality if that is the case.

You say that you either pay back the karma, which means that you've lost nuyen and had a loss in advancement (Because 2 karma is generally worth more than 1 BP, not to mention the lack of character growth for the next 15ish runs) in exchange for nothing. Or if you don't pay back the karma you get equal levels of other bad qualities, in which case you've lost nuyen in exchange for nothing because you could have just taken those qualities from the start and not paid nuyen for the privilege.

I did like the suggestion of allowing it as a non-quality option to increase your starting cash (For the hacker or street sam that needs those couple extra k to get that last cool toy) in exchange for having a bit of a loan to pay off once the game starts or for the mage who needs every last BP for spells and can't/doesn't want to swing any over to resources.

I don't really see the point of contention.

"In-Debt" is a Negative Quality, ergo it's removal requires an expenditure of Karma. There is nothing to suggest otherwise.

It is no different to killing your "Enemy", or going through rehab for your "Addiction". Both are in-game methods of resolving a Negative Quality, but require an expenditure of Karma to make permanent.

"In-Debt" gives you a cash boost at CharGen as well as Build Points, there is nothing wrong with it.

But where is the logic in that? If i have payed off my debt it is done. Sure the loanshark MAY want to hold me in it... but what is he gonna do if i give him a bag of cash and say: That's it, we are even... AND DON'T FUCK WITH ME, EVER?

Sure you can now make him an enemy for some points and try to ruin you for daring to escape his petty debt... but that's unlikely. There are some more hooks too, where you could get to the people (What, courier? I never got the money...). But doing that on purpose and all the time is contrived and unneccessary. If somebody in my group has that flaw and pays it off, he is out of it... maybe with minor consequences (which may be bought off with karma) But not for a 5000 loan or such. Of course i would only allow higher debts because of that reason. the 5000 or such are too easily repayable, but higher levels of debt can REALLY throw a wrench into the gears, when the character really struggles to pay the monthly interest.

Edit:
Ah, there are some positive qualities as well, which you can just "lose" ingame... i am not GIVING him karma for this too. People should stop thinking that Karma=Qualities... They HAVE a buy/pay off-mechanic, yes. But some things just happen. Positive AND negative qualities.

But where is the logic in that?
The Logic is out of Game ,not Ingame
If Your Character would be allowed to loose a Diasadvantage without Paying in Karma,than other Players would demand the same for their Chars and could request to loose their Addiction or their Incompetence without paying in Karma. So;
Ingame you pay the Money to get rid of your Debt and Outgame you pay Karma to get rid of a Disadvantage.
The only other Solution I see is making In Debt not a Disadvantage. If you dont get any BP ,then its not a Disadvantage and you don't have to "Pay Back in Karma"

with a logical Dance
Medicineman

Let's say that the in dept is always linked to a crime syndicate of some sort. Then you would owe the money plus favors ... and if I look at mafia, favors are always too small to cover the entire dept. So buying Favors (with karma) would be a better way to see it.

In my opinion, the "In-Debt" Negative quality is a totally different situation to one where a character takes on debt during play.

The former has gained the character Build Points as well as money and so has a Karma component, while the latter is usually just a matter of paying back the money owed.

I assume in-debt means a favor that you have to keep on paying. You offer something in exchange of a cash down payment. Otherwise it's kinda pointless. Letä's face it. If your character makes the leg breakers look like choir boys then who exactly is going to extract the money if the character decides not to pay up?

Anyways, Christmas waits for no-one and there is too much coal to deliver to freezing homes.

Yes, only the good kids get coal.

That's cos the coal is paid for with Karma

With today's energy crises. It looks like the cost of coal is going to increase. A lump may turn into an investment 20 years later.

And the naughty girls get diamonds. ^_^

Conceptually, I understand why folks want there to be a drawback to "In Debt" even after the cash is paid back. It is a negative quality. It gave you karma.
But, as written, the book describes the negative effects of this quality. And those negative effects go away when the debt is paid.
The book doesn't say that the lending organization "did yo a favor". If it did, you would owe them a favor until / unless it was all cleared up.
Yes, a GM can decide it should have said that, and require it. If that were included, then I would think there would have been no need for the 50% surcharge.

Also note: IRL, Loan sharks don't collect favors. They collect money. Unless you are a politician, or maybe a corporate exec, having borrowed money from a loan shark, and paid it off, it not going to give them a hold on you that lets them demand a favor. (The hold for politicians and execs is revealing that you borrowed money. For a shadowrunner, the response would probably be "I've done worse. So publish.") Even in fiction, the typical setup is that the interest rate is so high that the victim can't pay it off. Or the fee wqas 1/3 of the company, which you don't have the option of buying back. But it is not that borrowing the money, in and of itself, gave them a hold on you.

I can well understand a GM saying that as written the quality is too good. And therefore wanting to adjust it.
Just don't tell me that the quality says that you owe them a favor or that they loan shark will lose track of the payments.

Yours,
Joel

I believe strongly that In Debt should be a 0-point quality. It's a good tradeoff - more nuyen at chargen, less later. Especially good for sammy types, and thematically appropriate as well. If you don't like the potential abuse of that much extra money, rule that it's affected by the resources expenditure cap (50 BP/100 Karma, or 250k, without born rich).

I actually agree that it should be a 0 Point quality. That would solve most of the argument and it keeps people from double dipping getting both cash and Karma from the same thing and only wanting to pay off one or the other.

*starts a new poll*

[Edit:] Here

In debt goves both money and BP at character generation. It is, effectively, a sort of zero point quality already, since you have to pay the money and the karma back to get rid of it.

Or, if you pay the money debt, every future karma point you receive will be "discounted" to pay the karma debt until all the karma cost is paid.

I usually make my players pay off the nuyen and karma, but the karma at a steeply discounted rate. Part of the reward for shadowrunning is money, earning it in game usually involves significant risk so if the characters pay off the debt but not the karma they might have made a nuisance enemy, gained a bad reputation for not showing the proper social graces or something of that nature.

The way you are presenting it, it is as if the character borrowed the money on Monday, went on their First Run on Tuesday and Paid off this Generic Loan Shark on Wednesday. Truly a compelling story.

It would be a mistake to assume that Debt refers only to money. Yes, money is the only thing mentioned in the text as far as the direct physical effect, but it also mentions a whole lot of BP and therefore a lot of Karma. The monetary difference between what is given (5k [7.5k] nuyen for 5bp) and what that's worth (5bp for 25k nuyen,) is an indication of the true debt. This difference in value represents the Karmic Debt you owe in the relationship. It also represents the Roleplaying Opportunities which Qualities are meant to provide as part of the character creation process.

As for making the player pay all their first Karma towards this debt, I play that the karmic debt can only be paid off by doing favors for the person/organization the character is In Debt to. Therefore, the occasional side mission will be open to the player and anyone else on the team who wants in, but the rewards for that player go solely towards absolving their debt. If an In Debt player refuses to take part in the opportunity their "beneficent friend" provides them, then that "friend" quickly loses his beneficence and begins to get his satisfaction out of the character in a much less mutual way. You know: contact/family is kidnapped, player has to make right with the organization or rescue his friend. Either way, karma is generated and paid towards the Debt. This sort of thing continues until the karma is paid, either as debt absolved, or cost of pursuit too high.

We came up with some solutions to “I paid off the Karma, but not the Cash.”

-The Loan Shark has a Stroke.
-As you are going to meet with him to make a payment, he meets the Cross Town Buss,
-You find a Cred-Stick with twice what you owe, and as you are tiring to figure out what to do with it, Mr. Sharky shows up with his two Shark Shaman Goons and decides the Stick will make everything even.

In addition, to keep with the season.
-He was visited by three Spirits the night before

During Character Generation
In Debt Negative Quality gives you BP which is used at the rate of 5 BP = 5,000 nuyen worth of Gear. (Note that normally 5,000 Nuyen is 1 BP in chargen)
You did not get cash. You got Gear. Gear is measured in Nuyen. Bad things happened to unused Nuyen in Gear Purchase phase. You do not end up with cash.


During Play
There are no Karma to Cash or Cash to Karma rules.
All Qualities are changed with Karma.
Gear in Play is purchased with cash.


My opinion, the 5 to 30 K of Gear is not the "Cash" debt they owe. It's actually the 10 to 60 karma to cash equivalent. By most Karma to Cash systems this is far more then 30k nuyen.

The general disconnect in discussing this Negative Quality is the idea of 30,000 nuyen in cash. It was never really there. As an exercise, find 30k worth of gear and determine the street value and time it takes to get it. 30k of Gear at character generation usually costs far more if you try to by it during game play.

I am confused... Street Value in 4th is the same at character creation as it is in game play... no more street indexes to worry about, so I am not sure what the point was of this statement...

You may indeed take some time to acquire some things after play starts... but the problem with this is that you are still not allowed to purchase anything abouve availability 12 anyway with the extra "Nuyen" you get for the In debt Quality... so that point is also somewhat funny to me...

And thirdly... there is no mention that it is in kind... read the Quality... you receive an extra 5,000 nuyen for every level of this quality, up to a max of 30,000 Nuyen... (it specifically mentions that it is MONEY, not GEAR)...

I guess I am just missing your point... Just Sayin
Could you clarify it a bit?

Keep the Faith

RC "For every 5 BP taken, the character
receives an extra 5,000¥ at character creation; this money can be
above and beyond the normal 50 BP cap for gear."

For Character Creation, see SR4A p. 86, Assign Resources.
"Resources cover
all the tools of your character’s trade, including gear, cyberware, magic
spells, and technomancer complex forms. Each type of resource has
its own separate BP cost."

Gear is set at 1 BP = 5,000 Nuyen, up to 50 BP may be spent in Character Creation's Assign resources step.

Then we get to Starting Nuyen, p. 88 SR4A
"Nuyen used to purchase gear under Resources doesn’t carry over when
you finish character creation and are ready to play."

For additional material, p. 81 SR4A "Players purchase qualities during character creation."

Also p. 89 SR4A under Starting Nuyen "Characters can purchase things immediately upon entering
the game, but any items bought are subject to Availability and the
whim of the gamemaster."

There is a clear distinction between nuyen bought with BP at character creation and used to obtain resources, and nuyen you get during game play.

One alternative would have been to assign an equivalent BP cost for all gear rather then nuyen, but that would be another column in the gear tables and a whole lot of numbers to the right of the decimal point to track. Want a 0.03 BP Defiance Shocker, or a 0.07 BP Ares Predator to start the game?

You generally get cash from the loanshark. You even pay him back in cash. The game simply assumes that you piddle all the cash away once you have 'acquired' your starting gear before the game starts.


Question: Are people getting both the cash and the BP bonus for taking this quality, or are they limiting the earned BPs to only getting the cash the quality gives? A second look at the quality has me reading both interpretations.

Well, I can kinda see what he means. There is actually an increase in the cost of most gear if you reason that R and F stuff fall under the 'hard to obtain' and 'police crackdown' categories which increase the price by 10 or 50%. Then time can be a huge issue, as if you want something 10,001+ (Most ware) it takes a week per roll, and something with say an availability of 15 requires 15 hits on an extended test which is subject to the reducing dice. So unless you have the pornomancer or someone helping you out finding the stuff, it could easily take months or be impossible to find. Even with 15ish dice it could still take about a month.

So yeah, I can see some validity to the argument that chargen nuyen is 'worth more' than in play nuyen. Of course I'd imagine that alot of GMs don't enforce availability so strictly, and even fewer are likely to charge you extra like that for R and F items.

So, yet another question. If you play that you have to pay back the karma for a quality, and play it by the book that you have to pay it back as soon as possible (No long term pay it back over the next 60 runs plan or anything similar), would you ever get the quality? It gets you a few extra BP that you could get via other means and some nuyen, but in exchange your character doesn't improve for the first 10-15 runs and doesn't make money for a while either.