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> Another In Debt Poll, Should it be a zero-point quality?
In Debt
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Tyro
post Dec 26 2009, 06:42 AM
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I believe strongly that In Debt should be a 0-point quality. It's a good tradeoff - more nuyen at chargen, less later. Especially good for sammy types, and thematically appropriate as well. If you don't like the potential abuse of that much extra money, rule that it's affected by the resources expenditure cap (50 BP/100 Karma, or 250k, without born rich).

What do you think?
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Tellos
post Dec 26 2009, 06:50 AM
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I'd say thats fine However I'd ask that a player explain why he is in debt obviously street sams work somewhat but others wuld need a good reason. Far as allowing it I might if it was as i said explained. In the end it's up to the GM if course.
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Tyro
post Dec 26 2009, 06:53 AM
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QUOTE (Tellos @ Dec 25 2009, 11:50 PM) *
I'd say thats fine However I'd ask that a player explain why he is in debt obviously street sams work somewhat but others wuld need a good reason. Far as allowing it I might if it was as i said explained. In the end it's up to the GM if course.

Agreed - even more so than most qualities, In Debt should require a fluff explanation in a character's bio.
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Draco18s
post Dec 26 2009, 08:08 AM
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My "other" was in regards to the second question, as I am a player, not a GM, so it wouldn't be up to me.
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Mäx
post Dec 26 2009, 01:59 PM
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Yes to all, if i ever get to play thats exatly how i try to get my GM to handle in-dept.
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Mäx
post Dec 26 2009, 02:03 PM
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Damm multipost
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Tyro
post Dec 26 2009, 04:58 PM
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For those of you who think In Debt shouldn't be affected by the resource cap: Why?
For those of you who think it should, ditto.
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Tsuul
post Dec 26 2009, 05:20 PM
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By resource cap, are you refering to
"For every 5 BP taken, the character receives an extra 5,000¥ at character creation; this money can be above and beyond the normal 50 BP cap for gear."
?

edit: nm, I now get there there is a push to remove the ability of this quality to get cash beyond the cap. Why, is still beyond me however.
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Delarn
post Dec 26 2009, 06:26 PM
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It should not be (ie if it is give ennemy equal to BP). The money is owed, so why it should be given toward the Cap ! Take Born Rich with that and get 330k if you want ! You will owe 45k + a Ton of services to the local syndicate !
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Saint Sithney
post Dec 26 2009, 07:20 PM
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The gear cap as of 4th ed is 50 bp or 150 karma.
The nuyen added by In Debt adds noting to that total bp or karma cost, so that nuyen has no relevance to the cap.
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Draco18s
post Dec 26 2009, 07:35 PM
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Personally I don't see why it should be subject to the cap, as you have to pay it back later. It has its own cap (¥30,000) which is about 6 BP worth of resources taken the normal way. So even under the "he got 6 more BP to work with" it's neither a major thing, plus is has to get paid off or be a drain on resources.

Think about it like Karma:

"At chargen a character may spend up to 10 more BP than he is allotted under the condition that he earns 1 less karma per run per 5 extra BP unless he spends 300% (two and a half) of the BP in Karma to repay the debt."

If it sounds fair, then its fair.
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Summerstorm
post Dec 26 2009, 08:59 PM
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Ah well.. int the other poll i am on the side that you don't need Karma to pay it off.

I would (as a player) still take it for 0 points, its the cash you need. Hm and making more money available with it would be nice too (For campaigns with more expected payment, or someone who is REALLY down on his luck). Hell i took the quality once, even though i didn't need the money (or the BP) but because it was great for the character-concept.

As a GM i COULD use it as a 0-point quality... but no one ever abused that quality in my group... so i had no problem using it as it was.
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Saint Sithney
post Dec 26 2009, 09:04 PM
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QUOTE (Summerstorm @ Dec 26 2009, 12:59 PM) *
Ah well.. int the other poll i am on the side that you don't need Karma to pay it off.

I would (as a player) still take it for 0 points, its the cash you need.


Use contacts to get you in touch with a loan shark. Borrow money in game. Null BP/karma cost. There's nothing stopping you.
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Ascalaphus
post Dec 26 2009, 11:22 PM
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On second thought, I think I misvoted. I'd like to divorce the BP Debt and the Money Dept qualities;

BP represents favors received from (the Mob or such) that allowed you to train/do stuff in the past - needs to be repaid in somewhat immaterial ways. (Favors in downtime, represented by karma)

Money debt is just that - money debt.

I still like to keep the money debt as part of the maximum starting equipment, because I don't want people starting with too much gear - if more gear was okay with me, I'd raise the equipment BP cap too.
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Jaid
post Dec 27 2009, 02:27 AM
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i think it's better as a zero-point quality (ie not really a quality at all) for a few reasons:

1) it's a cash debt, it makes little or no sense to charge karma to pay it off. it just isn't logically explained.

2) i don't think people should be *gaining* build points/karma in exchange for getting resources.

3) it doesn't really fit as a quality. it's not something inherent to the character, whereas most qualities are. unlucky is just something that your character has. you can't really just decide one day that you're going to stop being unlucky. if you're incompetent at driving motorcycles, and you decide to get rid of it, it makes sense that you invest karma (time and effort, training, etc) into it. if you're in debt... well... you get out of debt by paying off your debtor. basically a variation on my first point.


anyways, personally, i would allow it to exceed the resource cap, personally, were i GMing. but that's just because i would want to make it extra-tempting... to me, shadowrunners (or at least, most starting-out shadowrunners) are likely to have a good sized debt, especially the ones who are the most strapped for cash (ie sammies, riggers). it just seems odd to me that a heavily cybered individual would manage to get 200,000 nuyen worth of (semi-)rare combat gear into their body, and have paid their own cash for all of it. it just seems much more believable that they owe someone.
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Saint Sithney
post Dec 27 2009, 02:28 AM
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QUOTE (Ascalaphus @ Dec 26 2009, 03:22 PM) *
I still like to keep the money debt as part of the maximum starting equipment, because I don't want people starting with too much gear - if more gear was okay with me, I'd raise the equipment BP cap too.


Good point with the latter, but how would you propose the former work?
Just free bp for gear, so long as it's below the nuyen cap? Then you pay the money back at 10 points vig weekly?
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Ascalaphus
post Dec 27 2009, 02:37 AM
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QUOTE (Saint Sithney @ Dec 27 2009, 03:28 AM) *
Good point with the latter, but how would you propose the former work?
Just free bp for gear, so long as it's below the nuyen cap? Then you pay the money back at 10 points vig weekly?


Yeah, basically. Also, the only people who loan money to shiftless shadowrunner wannabees are either the Mob or otherwise really scary people.

Of course, as soon as you can't make a payment, they'll offer you a job to "tide you over"..
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toturi
post Dec 27 2009, 02:44 AM
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QUOTE (Ascalaphus @ Dec 27 2009, 10:37 AM) *
Yeah, basically. Also, the only people who loan money to shiftless shadowrunner wannabees are either the Mob or otherwise really scary people.

Of course, as soon as you can't make a payment, they'll offer you a job to "tide you over"..

The only people who loan money to SINless people with a dangerous skillset are really stupid people or really foolish people. The Mob or otherwise really scary people should know better than to lend money to shiftless shadowrunner wannabees. Lending money to shadowrunners at a high rate of interest is like licking a straight razor, there's a safe way and there's a unsafe way, either way is wrong.
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Ascalaphus
post Dec 27 2009, 08:46 AM
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QUOTE (toturi @ Dec 27 2009, 03:44 AM) *
The only people who loan money to SINless people with a dangerous skillset are really stupid people or really foolish people. The Mob or otherwise really scary people should know better than to lend money to shiftless shadowrunner wannabees. Lending money to shadowrunners at a high rate of interest is like licking a straight razor, there's a safe way and there's a unsafe way, either way is wrong.


I think the Mob is a lot scarier than any starting-out Runner, and they know it. The lending rate just reflects the risks the lender is taking, and the desperate position of the Runner.
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toturi
post Dec 27 2009, 09:43 AM
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QUOTE (Ascalaphus @ Dec 27 2009, 04:46 PM) *
I think the Mob is a lot scarier than any starting-out Runner, and they know it. The lending rate just reflects the risks the lender is taking, and the desperate position of the Runner.

I think the Mob is not stupid enough to lend out to any starting out runner. Even with the kind of lending rates they have, the odds of any wannabe runner succeeding in the trade for any good ROI is slimmer than even what they can afford. And they are not foolish enough to lend out to any experienced runner either.

The chances are that the runner borrowed their money without them knowing how he is going to use that money. And while most criminal organisations are scarier than a starting out runner, forcibly recovering their money from him is going to be a losing proposition. Sure, the runners should know better than to try to owe the Mob money but the point is the Mob knows better than to lend runners money too. Even if they didn't know before, they know it now.
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etherial
post Dec 27 2009, 03:21 PM
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QUOTE (toturi @ Dec 27 2009, 04:43 AM) *
I think the Mob is not stupid enough to lend out to any starting out runner. Even with the kind of lending rates they have, the odds of any wannabe runner succeeding in the trade for any good ROI is slimmer than even what they can afford. And they are not foolish enough to lend out to any experienced runner either.

The chances are that the runner borrowed their money without them knowing how he is going to use that money. And while most criminal organisations are scarier than a starting out runner, forcibly recovering their money from him is going to be a losing proposition. Sure, the runners should know better than to try to owe the Mob money but the point is the Mob knows better than to lend runners money too. Even if they didn't know before, they know it now.


The mob isn't going to loan money to someone who tells them xe wants to be a Shadow Runner. The mob will loan money to a pit fighter who wants to upgrade xyr 'ware to be a better pit fighter - and then starts Shadow Running on the side as well.
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Ascalaphus
post Dec 27 2009, 03:28 PM
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QUOTE (etherial @ Dec 27 2009, 04:21 PM) *
The mob isn't going to loan money to someone who tells them xe wants to be a Shadow Runner. The mob will loan money to a pit fighter who wants to upgrade xyr 'ware to be a better pit fighter - and then starts Shadow Running on the side as well.


Might even get his first jobs from the mob, to raise money to pay of that loan. Of course, since the mob has you at their mercy, they can send you to do stuff they wouldn't touch themselves..

I keep getting these Lucky Number Slevin flashbacks in this topic..

"If this goes wrong, you'll end up owing a lot of money to some people you don't want to owe the slightest amount of money to..."
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Tyro
post Dec 27 2009, 07:22 PM
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Keep in mind that a freshly genned runner is NOT just starting out assuming 400 bp/750 karma; the mob probably WOULD lend to someone with some experience and a decent rep.
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Ascalaphus
post Dec 27 2009, 07:38 PM
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If you're a nice person, with prospects, a job, good reputation etc. - sure, the bank will lend to you. If you're not so lucky, you borrow from nastier people. You pay more interest, because they don't trust you. They warn you that they'll hurt you if you don't pay.

I think a lot of shadowrunners would think twice before crossing their Mob loanshark; it'll be bad for your reputation as a "businessman", and the Mob has enough power to kill a startup runner. And everyone he cares about.
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Saint Sithney
post Dec 28 2009, 01:40 AM
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Ritual Magic is a pretty wicked insurance policy.
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