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Tyro
I believe strongly that In Debt should be a 0-point quality. It's a good tradeoff - more nuyen at chargen, less later. Especially good for sammy types, and thematically appropriate as well. If you don't like the potential abuse of that much extra money, rule that it's affected by the resources expenditure cap (50 BP/100 Karma, or 250k, without born rich).

What do you think?
Tellos
I'd say thats fine However I'd ask that a player explain why he is in debt obviously street sams work somewhat but others wuld need a good reason. Far as allowing it I might if it was as i said explained. In the end it's up to the GM if course.
Tyro
QUOTE (Tellos @ Dec 25 2009, 11:50 PM) *
I'd say thats fine However I'd ask that a player explain why he is in debt obviously street sams work somewhat but others wuld need a good reason. Far as allowing it I might if it was as i said explained. In the end it's up to the GM if course.

Agreed - even more so than most qualities, In Debt should require a fluff explanation in a character's bio.
Draco18s
My "other" was in regards to the second question, as I am a player, not a GM, so it wouldn't be up to me.
Mx
Yes to all, if i ever get to play thats exatly how i try to get my GM to handle in-dept.
Mx
Damm multipost
Tyro
For those of you who think In Debt shouldn't be affected by the resource cap: Why?
For those of you who think it should, ditto.
Tsuul
By resource cap, are you refering to
"For every 5 BP taken, the character receives an extra 5,000 at character creation; this money can be above and beyond the normal 50 BP cap for gear."
?

edit: nm, I now get there there is a push to remove the ability of this quality to get cash beyond the cap. Why, is still beyond me however.
Delarn
It should not be (ie if it is give ennemy equal to BP). The money is owed, so why it should be given toward the Cap ! Take Born Rich with that and get 330k if you want ! You will owe 45k + a Ton of services to the local syndicate !
Saint Sithney
The gear cap as of 4th ed is 50 bp or 150 karma.
The nuyen added by In Debt adds noting to that total bp or karma cost, so that nuyen has no relevance to the cap.
Draco18s
Personally I don't see why it should be subject to the cap, as you have to pay it back later. It has its own cap (30,000) which is about 6 BP worth of resources taken the normal way. So even under the "he got 6 more BP to work with" it's neither a major thing, plus is has to get paid off or be a drain on resources.

Think about it like Karma:

"At chargen a character may spend up to 10 more BP than he is allotted under the condition that he earns 1 less karma per run per 5 extra BP unless he spends 300% (two and a half) of the BP in Karma to repay the debt."

If it sounds fair, then its fair.
Summerstorm
Ah well.. int the other poll i am on the side that you don't need Karma to pay it off.

I would (as a player) still take it for 0 points, its the cash you need. Hm and making more money available with it would be nice too (For campaigns with more expected payment, or someone who is REALLY down on his luck). Hell i took the quality once, even though i didn't need the money (or the BP) but because it was great for the character-concept.

As a GM i COULD use it as a 0-point quality... but no one ever abused that quality in my group... so i had no problem using it as it was.
Saint Sithney
QUOTE (Summerstorm @ Dec 26 2009, 12:59 PM) *
Ah well.. int the other poll i am on the side that you don't need Karma to pay it off.

I would (as a player) still take it for 0 points, its the cash you need.


Use contacts to get you in touch with a loan shark. Borrow money in game. Null BP/karma cost. There's nothing stopping you.
Ascalaphus
On second thought, I think I misvoted. I'd like to divorce the BP Debt and the Money Dept qualities;

BP represents favors received from (the Mob or such) that allowed you to train/do stuff in the past - needs to be repaid in somewhat immaterial ways. (Favors in downtime, represented by karma)

Money debt is just that - money debt.

I still like to keep the money debt as part of the maximum starting equipment, because I don't want people starting with too much gear - if more gear was okay with me, I'd raise the equipment BP cap too.
Jaid
i think it's better as a zero-point quality (ie not really a quality at all) for a few reasons:

1) it's a cash debt, it makes little or no sense to charge karma to pay it off. it just isn't logically explained.

2) i don't think people should be *gaining* build points/karma in exchange for getting resources.

3) it doesn't really fit as a quality. it's not something inherent to the character, whereas most qualities are. unlucky is just something that your character has. you can't really just decide one day that you're going to stop being unlucky. if you're incompetent at driving motorcycles, and you decide to get rid of it, it makes sense that you invest karma (time and effort, training, etc) into it. if you're in debt... well... you get out of debt by paying off your debtor. basically a variation on my first point.


anyways, personally, i would allow it to exceed the resource cap, personally, were i GMing. but that's just because i would want to make it extra-tempting... to me, shadowrunners (or at least, most starting-out shadowrunners) are likely to have a good sized debt, especially the ones who are the most strapped for cash (ie sammies, riggers). it just seems odd to me that a heavily cybered individual would manage to get 200,000 nuyen worth of (semi-)rare combat gear into their body, and have paid their own cash for all of it. it just seems much more believable that they owe someone.
Saint Sithney
QUOTE (Ascalaphus @ Dec 26 2009, 03:22 PM) *
I still like to keep the money debt as part of the maximum starting equipment, because I don't want people starting with too much gear - if more gear was okay with me, I'd raise the equipment BP cap too.


Good point with the latter, but how would you propose the former work?
Just free bp for gear, so long as it's below the nuyen cap? Then you pay the money back at 10 points vig weekly?
Ascalaphus
QUOTE (Saint Sithney @ Dec 27 2009, 03:28 AM) *
Good point with the latter, but how would you propose the former work?
Just free bp for gear, so long as it's below the nuyen cap? Then you pay the money back at 10 points vig weekly?


Yeah, basically. Also, the only people who loan money to shiftless shadowrunner wannabees are either the Mob or otherwise really scary people.

Of course, as soon as you can't make a payment, they'll offer you a job to "tide you over"..
toturi
QUOTE (Ascalaphus @ Dec 27 2009, 10:37 AM) *
Yeah, basically. Also, the only people who loan money to shiftless shadowrunner wannabees are either the Mob or otherwise really scary people.

Of course, as soon as you can't make a payment, they'll offer you a job to "tide you over"..

The only people who loan money to SINless people with a dangerous skillset are really stupid people or really foolish people. The Mob or otherwise really scary people should know better than to lend money to shiftless shadowrunner wannabees. Lending money to shadowrunners at a high rate of interest is like licking a straight razor, there's a safe way and there's a unsafe way, either way is wrong.
Ascalaphus
QUOTE (toturi @ Dec 27 2009, 03:44 AM) *
The only people who loan money to SINless people with a dangerous skillset are really stupid people or really foolish people. The Mob or otherwise really scary people should know better than to lend money to shiftless shadowrunner wannabees. Lending money to shadowrunners at a high rate of interest is like licking a straight razor, there's a safe way and there's a unsafe way, either way is wrong.


I think the Mob is a lot scarier than any starting-out Runner, and they know it. The lending rate just reflects the risks the lender is taking, and the desperate position of the Runner.
toturi
QUOTE (Ascalaphus @ Dec 27 2009, 04:46 PM) *
I think the Mob is a lot scarier than any starting-out Runner, and they know it. The lending rate just reflects the risks the lender is taking, and the desperate position of the Runner.

I think the Mob is not stupid enough to lend out to any starting out runner. Even with the kind of lending rates they have, the odds of any wannabe runner succeeding in the trade for any good ROI is slimmer than even what they can afford. And they are not foolish enough to lend out to any experienced runner either.

The chances are that the runner borrowed their money without them knowing how he is going to use that money. And while most criminal organisations are scarier than a starting out runner, forcibly recovering their money from him is going to be a losing proposition. Sure, the runners should know better than to try to owe the Mob money but the point is the Mob knows better than to lend runners money too. Even if they didn't know before, they know it now.
etherial
QUOTE (toturi @ Dec 27 2009, 04:43 AM) *
I think the Mob is not stupid enough to lend out to any starting out runner. Even with the kind of lending rates they have, the odds of any wannabe runner succeeding in the trade for any good ROI is slimmer than even what they can afford. And they are not foolish enough to lend out to any experienced runner either.

The chances are that the runner borrowed their money without them knowing how he is going to use that money. And while most criminal organisations are scarier than a starting out runner, forcibly recovering their money from him is going to be a losing proposition. Sure, the runners should know better than to try to owe the Mob money but the point is the Mob knows better than to lend runners money too. Even if they didn't know before, they know it now.


The mob isn't going to loan money to someone who tells them xe wants to be a Shadow Runner. The mob will loan money to a pit fighter who wants to upgrade xyr 'ware to be a better pit fighter - and then starts Shadow Running on the side as well.
Ascalaphus
QUOTE (etherial @ Dec 27 2009, 04:21 PM) *
The mob isn't going to loan money to someone who tells them xe wants to be a Shadow Runner. The mob will loan money to a pit fighter who wants to upgrade xyr 'ware to be a better pit fighter - and then starts Shadow Running on the side as well.


Might even get his first jobs from the mob, to raise money to pay of that loan. Of course, since the mob has you at their mercy, they can send you to do stuff they wouldn't touch themselves..

I keep getting these Lucky Number Slevin flashbacks in this topic..

"If this goes wrong, you'll end up owing a lot of money to some people you don't want to owe the slightest amount of money to..."
Tyro
Keep in mind that a freshly genned runner is NOT just starting out assuming 400 bp/750 karma; the mob probably WOULD lend to someone with some experience and a decent rep.
Ascalaphus
If you're a nice person, with prospects, a job, good reputation etc. - sure, the bank will lend to you. If you're not so lucky, you borrow from nastier people. You pay more interest, because they don't trust you. They warn you that they'll hurt you if you don't pay.

I think a lot of shadowrunners would think twice before crossing their Mob loanshark; it'll be bad for your reputation as a "businessman", and the Mob has enough power to kill a startup runner. And everyone he cares about.
Saint Sithney
Ritual Magic is a pretty wicked insurance policy.
Tyro
QUOTE (Saint Sithney @ Dec 27 2009, 06:40 PM) *
Ritual Magic is a pretty wicked insurance policy.

Oooh, I hadn't thought about that. I smell a plot hook!
Fuchs
In debt is a great way to explain why someone does shadowruns.
Blade
Personally, after seeing too many characters made with in-debt just to get above the 250k cap, I've decided that in-debt doesn't get you any extra-money: you just owe money.
toturi
QUOTE (Saint Sithney @ Dec 28 2009, 09:40 AM) *
Ritual Magic is a pretty wicked insurance policy.

A ritual link is excellent bait.
Nightfalke
QUOTE (Ascalaphus @ Dec 26 2009, 05:22 PM) *
On second thought, I think I misvoted. I'd like to divorce the BP Debt and the Money Debt qualities;

BP represents favors received from (the Mob or such) that allowed you to train/do stuff in the past - needs to be repaid in somewhat immaterial ways. (Favors in downtime, represented by karma)

Money debt is just that - money debt.

I still like to keep the money debt as part of the maximum starting equipment, because I don't want people starting with too much gear - if more gear was okay with me, I'd raise the equipment BP cap too.


I am a big fan of this idea. It does seem silly to have to pay off a money debt with karma. However, if you owe someone a "solid", that is very much a karma payoff type thing.
D2F
QUOTE (Tyro @ Dec 26 2009, 07:42 AM) *
I believe strongly that In Debt should be a 0-point quality. It's a good tradeoff - more nuyen at chargen, less later. Especially good for sammy types, and thematically appropriate as well. If you don't like the potential abuse of that much extra money, rule that it's affected by the resources expenditure cap (50 BP/100 Karma, or 250k, without born rich).

What do you think?


That quality is a major drawback for any character as long as the GM is using reasonable financial incentives for their runs. On average, a Runner might get 1-3K a run, 1-2 runs a month. So, on a good month, he brings home 6K (the reason I consider that level reasonable, is because we can safely assume that being a shadowrunner won't allow for an average lifestyle higher than low, with medium for the more successful ones. Otherwise, Shadowrunners wouldn't be consistently displayed as "in need of cash" in pretty much any flavor text. Last, but not least, if a runner can afford to buy a medium lifestyle, most runners wouldn't even BE runners. The majority of Runners run the shadow not for the thrill, but because they have no over venue of income fitting their skills).

Since the lowest amount of debt through this quality would be 7,500 with a monthly interest of 750, it would take a low-lifestyle runner with an average monthly income of around 4,000 abouot 5 months just to pay off those debts. And that assumes no expenses other than his lifestyle (no ammo, no 'nades, no bribes, no 'ware...).

I consider that pretty hefty for a 5 point flaw.

Of course, if you consider the -30 point quality, you'd look at 45,000 in debt, with a monthly interest of 4,500, easily swallowing the monthly income of your avewrage shadowrunner with interests alone, allowing for a squatter lifestyle at best.

Now, if you as the GM of your own group throw around the cash like there was no tomorrow, with fees in the 5-11K per run, per runner, then you may have to adjust the debt value of the quality (or you simply adjust the financial rewards of your adventure to a more reasonable level).

As far as I am concerned, the quality is fine as is and a pretty major drawback to have in a financially reasonable campaign.
Tyro
QUOTE (D2F @ Dec 28 2009, 11:32 AM) *
<snip>
Since the lowest amount of debt through this quality would be 7,500 with a monthly interest of 750, it would take a low-lifestyle runner with an average monthly income of around 4,000 abouot 5 months just to pay off those debts. And that assumes no expenses other than his lifestyle (no ammo, no 'nades, no bribes, no 'ware...).
<snip>

You make a good point about the interest. I still don't think it should give Karma, however, because it's so hard to figure out what happens if you pay off the karma but not the cash or vice versa.
Jaid
those tiny payouts really don't work. you start handing out that much, and you get all kinds of problems.

1) how the hell did the runners get 250,000 nuyen worth of gear, pray tell, making average wageslave salaries.

2) the shadowrunning team will either loot everything that isn't nailed down (and depending on value and carrying capacity, they will bring something that redefines what "nailed down" limits them to) and start selling it while they're on a shadowrun, or they will do so outside of a shadowrun.

3) if shadowrunning is worth that tiny little amount, riggers are simply not even going to be possible.

4) you can forget about anyone ever advancing in the context of equipment. street samurai and riggers already have a hard enough time scraping together enough cash to improve; there's no need to make magicians, adepts, and technomancers more appealing than they already are.

5) there's no point in them shadowrunning at all. someone with the skill level of the average PC street samurai has what are probably some of the least valued skills in terms of salary overall (that is, relative to a hacker or a magician). that being said, they're likely some of the best at what they do in the world. they could probably join a competitive paintball team and earn that much per month from sponsorship deals, and that doesn't involve people trying to murder them on a regular basis, and you can throw in some target shooting competitions on the side, etc.

the average 400 BP shadowrunner is likely to be one of the most competent individuals in the metroplex they're in when it comes to their specialisation.

and if you cut back their income that much, you're going to run into problems with your cash-starved players acting like cash-starved players, and pretty soon they're going to tell mr/ms johnson (s)he can go screw himself, they've got things to do that bring in twice as much money and have a tiny fraction of the degree of risk involved.
Tyro
QUOTE (Jaid @ Dec 28 2009, 02:07 PM) *
those tiny payouts really don't work. you start handing out that much, and you get all kinds of problems.

1) how the hell did the runners get 250,000 nuyen worth of gear, pray tell, making average wageslave salaries.

2) the shadowrunning team will either loot everything that isn't nailed down (and depending on value and carrying capacity, they will bring something that redefines what "nailed down" limits them to) and start selling it while they're on a shadowrun, or they will do so outside of a shadowrun.

3) if shadowrunning is worth that tiny little amount, riggers are simply not even going to be possible.

4) you can forget about anyone ever advancing in the context of equipment. street samurai and riggers already have a hard enough time scraping together enough cash to improve; there's no need to make magicians, adepts, and technomancers more appealing than they already are.

5) there's no point in them shadowrunning at all. someone with the skill level of the average PC street samurai has what are probably some of the least valued skills in terms of salary overall (that is, relative to a hacker or a magician). that being said, they're likely some of the best at what they do in the world. they could probably join a competitive paintball team and earn that much per month from sponsorship deals, and that doesn't involve people trying to murder them on a regular basis, and you can throw in some target shooting competitions on the side, etc.

the average 400 BP shadowrunner is likely to be one of the most competent individuals in the metroplex they're in when it comes to their specialisation.

and if you cut back their income that much, you're going to run into problems with your cash-starved players acting like cash-starved players, and pretty soon they're going to tell mr/ms johnson (s)he can go screw himself, they've got things to do that bring in twice as much money and have a tiny fraction of the degree of risk involved.

QFT
D2F
QUOTE (Tyro @ Dec 28 2009, 09:52 PM) *
You make a good point about the interest. I still don't think it should give Karma, however, because it's so hard to figure out what happens if you pay off the karma but not the cash or vice versa.


I would consider paying off the "In Debt" quality with Karma to be along the lines of "paying back through favors". It could represent any number of things, like that you became aware of an assassination attempt on the loan shark you owe the money to and gave him a warning (or even saved his life directly). Or maybe he just got killed and your debt went missing during the transfer to the "new owner". Or maybe you came across a hacker connection, that was able to clear your debt through some tech saviness... The imagination is the limit here. But I can see your point and I can understand that it may feel awkward or uncomfortable for some.
D2F
QUOTE (Jaid @ Dec 28 2009, 10:07 PM) *
those tiny payouts really don't work. you start handing out that much, and you get all kinds of problems.

1) how the hell did the runners get 250,000 nuyen worth of gear, pray tell, making average wageslave salaries.

2) the shadowrunning team will either loot everything that isn't nailed down (and depending on value and carrying capacity, they will bring something that redefines what "nailed down" limits them to) and start selling it while they're on a shadowrun, or they will do so outside of a shadowrun.

3) if shadowrunning is worth that tiny little amount, riggers are simply not even going to be possible.

4) you can forget about anyone ever advancing in the context of equipment. street samurai and riggers already have a hard enough time scraping together enough cash to improve; there's no need to make magicians, adepts, and technomancers more appealing than they already are.

5) there's no point in them shadowrunning at all. someone with the skill level of the average PC street samurai has what are probably some of the least valued skills in terms of salary overall (that is, relative to a hacker or a magician). that being said, they're likely some of the best at what they do in the world. they could probably join a competitive paintball team and earn that much per month from sponsorship deals, and that doesn't involve people trying to murder them on a regular basis, and you can throw in some target shooting competitions on the side, etc.

the average 400 BP shadowrunner is likely to be one of the most competent individuals in the metroplex they're in when it comes to their specialisation.

and if you cut back their income that much, you're going to run into problems with your cash-starved players acting like cash-starved players, and pretty soon they're going to tell mr/ms johnson (s)he can go screw himself, they've got things to do that bring in twice as much money and have a tiny fraction of the degree of risk involved.


You cannot just look at it from just one perspective:

For a corp, it's cost-benefit analysis. If they have to pay too much, it becomes safer for them to train their own shadow ops team. The higher the "investment cost" the more "secured" a corp wants his assets. Also, the cost of the job needs to be in relation to the benefit as well.

Simple excemple:

Mr.J needs a data file "liberated" from an offline data bunker. Classic B&E. The file has a financial net worth of about 500K. He needs a team of 4-5 assets to reliable complete that assignment (let's assume 4 for a higher payout). It simply doesn't make sense for a corp from a business perspective to spend more than 10% of the net-worth on such an operation. Part of that "budget" goes into logistics (Mr.J, his staff and reconaissance assets). For the sake of argument, let's say that would be 6% (or 30,000, which sounds extremely reasonable, considering management salaries, as well as employee salaries). That leaves a grand total of 20K for the team in this case, or 5K per runner. And that is a positive estimate.

Or consider your average Joe MrJs, looking for lost loved ones, or seeking help with a terrorizing gang. They won't have hundreds of thousands of Nuyen to throw around.
In addition, the shadows in SR are a business. And where there is business, there is competition. In this case for prices as well. MrJ. won't hire the most well known team, he will hire the most cost efficient Team.

Last but not least, if a Corp would have to shelve out 100K+ for a single assignment, they might be better off using in-house assets. In-house assets, while providing less deniability provide far more substancial financial security in terms of the operation.

That all said: a Campaign in which the GM hands out 10K+ per runner per run might be fun for the players (for a while at least), but it would certainly not be plausible, let alone reasonable within the setting of SR.



To answer your first question, though:

Runners do no nescessarily have to have paid for their gear (that they obtained during character creation). It might have been part of their previous employments. Or it might have been payment for previous runs (a cyberarm might cost the corp less than the 5K, after all).

I can go on, if you want me to, but I think you get the drift.
Mx
QUOTE (D2F @ Dec 28 2009, 11:27 PM) *
That all said: a Campaign in which the GM hands out 10K+ per runner per run might be fun for the players (for a while at least), but it would certainly not be plausible, let alone reasonable within the setting of SR.

No Runs paying 3k nuyen.gif per runner per run is really not plausible nor reasonable from the world point of view.
And from balance point of view standart run is worth minimum of 4 karma and thats equilevant of 10k nuyen.gif , so unless you only award 1-2karma per run, your totally unbalancing the game by lowballing the monetary rewads.
D2F
QUOTE (Mäx @ Dec 28 2009, 10:48 PM) *
No Runs paying 3k nuyen.gif per runner per run is really not plausible nor reasonable from the world point of view.
And from balance point of view standart run is worth minimum of 4 karma and thats equilevant of 10k nuyen.gif , so unless you only award 1-2karma per run, your totally unbalancing the game by lowballing the monetary rewads.


You cannot simply calculate 1BP as 2 Karma points. They are not the same. So, unless there is a cash-for-karma option that I missed (in which case I would appreciate a citation), I cannot accept your calculation.


But if you want to have a perspective on the high end of monetary gains through shadowruns, let's have a look at "Dusk":

A maximum possible Karma reward of 18 per runner, compared to the suggested maximum of 10 Karma per run in SR4A. So, "Dusk" should be considered 2 runs for the sake of "rewards".
A maximum possible monetary reward of 2,500 per runner per day, with a maximum duration of 6 days for a grand possible total of 15,000 per runner.

Using these numbers, we can extrapolate a fee of 7,500 per "run" per runner as the high end of the business. Keep in mind that in a cost to benefit evaluation we are still below the 1% mark for the runner fee in this scenario.



Or let's have a look at "On the Run", the official introductory SR adventure:

Payment: 10,000 for the TEAM (2,000-2,500 per runner for the entire run)
Karma: 6 (on average, maximum of 11)



I think my numbers for an "average" job are still quite applicable.
Now, of course you can throw your runners into one meat grinder after another to justify higher monetary rewards. If that is where the fun is for you and your players, more power to you. But don't use artificially bolstered numbers of your own group as an argument as to why "In Debt" should not count as a negative quality worth its points.


Fuchs
QUOTE (D2F @ Dec 28 2009, 11:34 PM) *
You cannot simply calculate 1BP as 2 Karma points. They are not the same. So, unless there is a cash-for-karma option that I missed (in which case I would appreciate a citation), I cannot accept your calculation.


Runner's Companion, p. 41:
1 point of Karma is equal to 2'500 Nuyen.
D2F
QUOTE (Fuchs @ Dec 29 2009, 06:56 PM) *
Runner's Companion, p. 41:
1 point of Karma is equal to 2'500 Nuyen.


That's character creation, not character improvement.
Fuchs
QUOTE (D2F @ Dec 29 2009, 07:17 PM) *
That's character creation, not character improvement.


The karma system was made to equal out generation and improvement costs - they even call it "improvement" there. Please read up.
D2F
QUOTE (Fuchs @ Dec 29 2009, 09:11 PM) *
The karma system was made to equal out generation and improvement costs - they even call it "improvement" there. Please read up.


Semantics, especially since it is quite clear in what context the word is used:

QUOTE ("Runners Companion p.41-42)
This section provides a second optional character generation system based on Karma instead of Build Points (BP). In Shadowrun, Fourth Edition, Karma is normally used for character improvement [...] In a Karma-based character generation system, players start out building their characters with Karma—not BP. Essentially, improving the character from scratch.


Also, it was not meant to "equal out" generation and improvement costs but to smooth the transition between generation and improvement. That's a pretty major difference.

Fact remains: if semantics are your only argument, you already conceded anyway.
Fuchs
QUOTE (D2F @ Dec 29 2009, 09:31 PM) *
Semantics, especially since it is quite clear in what context the word is used:

Also, it was not meant to "equal out" generation and improvement costs but to smooth the transition between generation and improvement. That's a pretty major difference.

Fact remains: if semantics are your only argument, you already conceded anyway.


The karma system tries to smooth out generation and improvement, as you said. That means that the same system is basically used to create as well as to advance characters, hence it's called "improve" in this case.

I really do not see how you can dismiss this.
D2F
QUOTE (Fuchs @ Dec 29 2009, 09:38 PM) *
The karma system tries to smooth out generation and improvement, as you said. That means that the same system is basically used to create as well as to advance characters, hence it's called "improve" in this case.

I really do not see how you can dismiss this.


You should read my citation again. It's not meant to smooth out generation and improvement but the transition between the two. The reason there is a transition in the first place is because they are not the same. Here, I'll even quote it for you, directly from the Runner's Companion:

QUOTE ("Runners Companion p.41")
[...] and allows a smoother transition between character generation and character advancement.


Of course you might be referring to the previous part of that sentence:

QUOTE ("Runners Companion p.41")
This makes Karma a default measure for players and gamemasters to compare relative experience between characters [...]


But as you can clearly read, it is talking about the comparison of experience.


Everything else is just your own interpretation and considering there is no cash-for-karma option for actual character improvement, I still do not see, how this is any way, shape or form relevant to the monetary rewards for Shadowruns.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (D2F @ Dec 28 2009, 03:34 PM) *
But if you want to have a perspective on the high end of monetary gains through shadowruns, let's have a look at "Dusk":

A maximum possible Karma reward of 18 per runner, compared to the suggested maximum of 10 Karma per run in SR4A. So, "Dusk" should be considered 2 runs for the sake of "rewards".
A maximum possible monetary reward of 2,500 per runner per day, with a maximum duration of 6 days for a grand possible total of 15,000 per runner.

Using these numbers, we can extrapolate a fee of 7,500 per "run" per runner as the high end of the business. Keep in mind that in a cost to benefit evaluation we are still below the 1% mark for the runner fee in this scenario.

Or let's have a look at "On the Run", the official introductory SR adventure:

Payment: 10,000 for the TEAM (2,000-2,500 per runner for the entire run)
Karma: 6 (on average, maximum of 11)

I think my numbers for an "average" job are still quite applicable.
Now, of course you can throw your runners into one meat grinder after another to justify higher monetary rewards. If that is where the fun is for you and your players, more power to you. But don't use artificially bolstered numbers of your own group as an argument as to why "In Debt" should not count as a negative quality worth its points.



Please do go on...

I say this because I have been playing in a 2+year campaign with the same character (Hacker/Rigger) and have received runs paying out fropm 20K Nuyen to 800k Nuyen (5 Man Team) and even at the high end payouts, we are still barely breaking even with destroyed equipment, vehicles, replacement parts organs and additional Cyberware/bioweare... at the rates you are talking, we would never be able to acquire any replacements for the gear that we use in a run, let alone acquire anything new...

Hell, even on the run we are on now, 10 Million Nuyen split between 12 'runners does not go very far, especially with the amount/type of equipment that is going to be required for the actual operation to come off successfully... and in the end, we will still probably not even get the full 10 Million as we are expecting a double cross forom at least 2, possibly 3 different sides.

If the payoff was not significant, we would not even be attempting to pursue the objective... the 10 million (possible) payout is what makes it attractive, and yet we still have several characters who think that is is not really worth it in the end...

Each table is different, and the value of a run will fluctuate dependent upon the team's competence and reputation... there are a lot of teams in Hong Kong (our campaign city)... there is a reason that only 3-4 of them (some not even from Hong Kong)are actually attempting this run (pitting their skills against each other, obviously... 2 other teams have already been eliminated by the corporation that we are running against, as well as 3 various player characters) as it is way above the majority of the remaining team's skill levels and reputation...

anyway...

Keep the Faith
Draco18s
Reminds me that our Lost GM could throw huge prize money quest values at us as much as he wanted (I'm not shitting you, our first mission in The Other Game of his own devising, gave us something like 2 million gp for a 5th level party of...6?) because we never got to spend most of it (aforementioned loot was confiscated by the local police when we entered the next city and we had to "run for our lives" leaving it, as we hopped through the nearest astral plane portal* to escape Certain Death).

Our second reward (some 20 million pp) was cut down significantly by auction house fees (it was the heart of a previously mentioned somewhere Sandworm of his own creation). We got something like 5000gp per player out of it. After negotiation of "I beat the NPC's roll by 25."

*His material realm was shattered, much like Deathgate, but had Astral Gates sorta floating around in--more or less--fixed locations with--more or less fixed--markers to the next nearest shard (was like a DC 35 survival check to locate the next marker, and there were 5+ on a route).
D2F
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Dec 30 2009, 02:19 AM) *
Please do go on...


As you wish.

QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Dec 30 2009, 02:19 AM) *
I say this because I have been playing in a 2+year campaign with the same character (Hacker/Rigger) and have received runs paying out fropm 20K Nuyen to 800k Nuyen (5 Man Team) and even at the high end payouts, we are still barely breaking even with destroyed equipment, vehicles, replacement parts organs and additional Cyberware/bioweare... at the rates you are talking, we would never be able to acquire any replacements for the gear that we use in a run, let alone acquire anything new...


I've been playing SR since '89. I've seen all types of groups, ragning from table grouos, to online groups and conventions. Thus I have also seen quite a few gamemasters and different campaigns.
Of course, if you want to play a completely unrealistic game, you are free to do so. I imagine times when our group was paid 10-20M per run. I imagine groups, where my rigger had a tilt-wing (self-built and designed), a heavily modified conestoga Bergen as his luxury RV, a heavily modified Zeppelin Blimp as his flying fortress, his own weapons manufacture, his own delta-clinic and was cybered out up the whazoo with delta-ware.

I know such groups exist because I played in them. And as long as it is fun for everyone, who cares how realistic they are. But this discussion is about how valid the "In Debt" quality is. You cannot use artificially twisted numbers for such a comparison. If you intend to run a deltaware campaign, you simply need to adjust the quality, it's that simple. For a standard campaign, it is just fine.

QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Dec 30 2009, 02:19 AM) *
Hell, even on the run we are on now, 10 Million Nuyen split between 12 'runners does not go very far, especially with the amount/type of equipment that is going to be required for the actual operation to come off successfully... and in the end, we will still probably not even get the full 10 Million as we are expecting a double cross forom at least 2, possibly 3 different sides.

If the payoff was not significant, we would not even be attempting to pursue the objective... the 10 million (possible) payout is what makes it attractive, and yet we still have several characters who think that is is not really worth it in the end...

Each table is different, and the value of a run will fluctuate dependent upon the team's competence and reputation... there are a lot of teams in Hong Kong (our campaign city)... there is a reason that only 3-4 of them (some not even from Hong Kong)are actually attempting this run (pitting their skills against each other, obviously... 2 other teams have already been eliminated by the corporation that we are running against, as well as 3 various player characters) as it is way above the majority of the remaining team's skill levels and reputation...


No corporation will hire runners for a job that costs them 10M. Period. It's just not financially feasible.

But I listed 2 runs in my reply above which supported my point. Let's have a look at some more:

Ghost Cartels: A Stranger in our House, Part 1 - 5,000 (max. 7,000) per runner, Karma reward is the standard out of SR4A
Ghost Cartels: Tokyo Fireworks - 50,000 up front, 250,000 total (for the group), Standard karma. This is high profile wetwork, though. About the single most dangerous assignment they can give you in SR, so we can safely assume this as an upper limit. In addition, high profile wetwork is not exactly the most common type of Shadowrun.
Ghost Cartels: Flipside - 6,000 per runner (8,000 per runner max), standard karma
Ghost Cartels: Cleaning House, Part 1 - 1,000(max 2,000) per runner, per day, 3 days duration (grand maximum total per runner for this run: 6,000), standard karma
Ghost Cartels: Cleaning House, Part 2 - 2,000-4,000 per runner, standard Karma.
Denver Missions: A Parliament of Thieves - 3,000 per runner, standard Karma
Denver Missions: Best Served Cold - 5,000 per runner, standard Karma
Denver Missions: The Grab - 5,000 per runner

Since I am getting bored going through adventures, I'll just stop here. I would be willing concede to 5,000 per runner as an average payment per run, but anything beyond that is clearly implausible.
If your group as expenses that go beyond these payments, you may want to consider cutting down on your expenses. A run without a shot fired is a well planned run, after all.
Saint Sithney
A 30-second prime time Trid advert costs more to run than a high-risk blackop?

Seems a little funny to me.
AngelisStorm
D2F, you sure do have a lot of opinions. Even with it being the internet (and the problems that soley text based comunication raises), do you actually read what you write?

QUOTE
I've been playing SR since '89. Of course, if you want to play a completely unrealistic game, you are free to do so.

No corporation will hire runners for a job that costs them 10M. Period. It's just not financially feasible.

Since I am getting bored going through adventures, I'll just stop here.

But as you can clearly read, ....

Fact remains: if semantics are your only argument, you already conceded anyway.

That quality is a major drawback for any character as long as the GM is using reasonable financial incentives for their runs. As far as I am concerned, the quality is fine as is and a pretty major drawback to have in a financially reasonable campaign.


And those are from just this thread.

You seem to have a lot of opinions, and while you do like to throw out alot of rationale for why you are correct (and everyone else is wrong), I've noticed you are pretty dismisive of other people's views of things.

With regards to this subject:

If you don't pay players adequately, they will loot heavily. Which is not professional. And high paying runs go to professionals.
If you want a low paying campaign, then you are playing a street campaign. Which is where your example runners, who have no other options of employment, come in.
WHY would someone, who is highly trained, perform incredibly dangerous work for peanuts? They can stand around and do nothing, guarding some warehouse, for that amount.

There is simply no reason for highly trained individuals to be making 1-3k for doing -illegal- work. These are ex-Army rangers or special forces; they can go join Black Water (or 10,000 Daggers) and make fat-sacks-of-cash. Or steal cars and sell them to chop-shops (or hell, run one).

I also don't believe you are -the- authority on illegal economics, unless you plan on throwing down some pretty impressive credentials.

And finally, as already mentioned, your system would not allow characters such as riggers and street sams advancement. Let alone mages who would like some foci someday.

I haven't responded to several other posts because I don't like your writing style (I will hold back "attitude" for the moment), but really man. Your opinion that there are not illegal activies out there (in the fictional setting of SR, let alone the real world) which are worth more than 20K is laughable. Sure, you can pay a gang member a few thousand to drive-by someone, but you think a professional is going to kill someone for that amount? ohplease.gif
D2F
QUOTE (Saint Sithney @ Dec 30 2009, 09:45 AM) *
A 30-second prime time Trid advert costs more to run than a high-risk blackop?

Seems a little funny to me.


A 30 second prime time Trid advert also yields a higher financial gain. Also, keep in mind that there is a threshold level, after which it becomes more lucrative for a Corp to train in-house personel for Black Ops rather than hire (risky) third party agents.

That all aside, consider the following:

Most Shadowrunners do what they do for a living, because they simply lack the skills for other work, or can't find other work. If a runner would score 500,000 in a run, he could settle down for the rest of his life, with a comfortable and (relatively) secure medium lifestyle. No more need to risk his life. No more need to risk prison sentences. No more fear of ending up as a tamanous gift present for stepping on the wrong toes.

Any reasonable runner scoring that big would stop running the shadows. He would have no more need to.

But let's say he's auspicious. Let's say he's aiming for a lifestyle among the rich and famous, with tickets to all the social clubs and invitations to the hottest parties. Let's say he's aiming for a high lifestyle in downtown Seattle: He'd need to score 1M.

Hell, if he wanted to life right next door to Lofwyr, with the great Wyrm on a first name basis, he's need to score 10M. Looking at some of the numbers above it seems some groups are shelving out that much money in just one run. Why are they still running the shadows? Seriously, why should they?

Quite honestly: If a Runner scores a million Nuyen in a run, he's done with the biz. Either that or he's insane. Even at 500,000 he would leave the biz to live a peaceful and quiet life, or maybe as a fixer from that point on. But he certainly wouldn't want to continue risking his life on a daily basis.


I can understand why players would want to deck out their chars with all deltaware and the most expensive toys. Hell, I was like that, myself, about 12 years back. But from a rational, reasonable perspective and considering even just basic economics, Runner fees beyond the 50,000 per team should be extremely rare. And fees of around 25,000 per group per run should be the average for a corp job.

If players still want better gear and toys, arrange for it in a different way. Have the players forfeit their payment for a different favor, like a beta- or delta-grade arm or similar toy. In a lot of cases it would be cheaper for a corp to provide the implant plus surgery than to have to explain away black book transactions. After all, those shareholders want to be kept in the loop and at the same time, you don't want to "burden" your shareholder with anything but the "nescessary" truth.

QUOTE (AngelisStorm @ Dec 30 2009, 10:20 AM) *
D2F, you sure do have a lot of opinions. Even with it being the internet (and the problems that soley text based comunication raises), do you actually read what you write?



And those are from just this thread.


Your point is?

QUOTE (AngelisStorm @ Dec 30 2009, 10:20 AM) *
You seem to have a lot of opinions, and while you do like to throw out alot of rationale for why you are correct (and everyone else is wrong), I've noticed you are pretty dismisive of other people's views of things.


I listen to rational arguments. I don't "tolerate" different opinions just because someone holds them. Some opinions are simply not worth the attention. For that reason, if an opinion does not have a rational argument behind it, I will dismiss it.

QUOTE (AngelisStorm @ Dec 30 2009, 10:20 AM) *
If you don't pay players adequately, they will loot heavily. Which is not professional. And high paying runs go to professionals.
If you want a low paying campaign, then you are playing a street campaign. Which is where your example runners, who have no other options of employment, come in.
WHY would someone, who is highly trained, perform incredibly dangerous work for peanuts? They can stand around and do nothing, guarding some warehouse, for that amount.


There are severalaspects wrong with your above stetements:

1) If players opt to loot heavily to increase their payout, they also need to live with the consequences. As long as they do that, that is just fine with me. If they think that looting while the corpsec reinforcements are on their way is in their best interest, more power to them. If they think cutting up the other runner team they just scattered across the street, while KE or LS are on their way, more power to them. Also, extracting Cyberware is not an easy task, chances are, they will destroy or damage the 'ware unless they have the approriate skills and environment. As I said before: been there, done that.
Bottom line is: Looting players tend to die fast and bloody deaths.

2) A low-paying campaing would be a campaign playing less than a thousand Nuyen per runner per run. The official adventures I listed should illustrate that on their own, even without a shred of knowledge about economics on your part.

3) 25,000 isn't peanuts. Go ask your parents what they earn in a year. Or go and as a special forces members what they earn. Or a SWAT member...
Let me help you out there: A lieutenant of the german special forces (combat divers, KSK, etc.) earns a yearly salary of approximately 47,000.-€. That is the salary for amember in service inside a direct conflict zone, in other words the maximum bonus payments. Also, keep in mind that a sargeant-equivalent or private-equivalent would earn considerably less for the same job (approx. 35,000.-€). Also, those are net salaries, so substract taxes as well.

In other words, a highly trained individual (better trained than most starting shadowrunners, in fact) earns about 50,000 a YEAR minus taxes. And you are asking who would risk his life for "peanuts"?
Given my numbers, the yearly salary of your average runner would be around 120,000. More than double that of a highly trained special forces officer on duty in an active conflict zone. Do you really think I just pull numbers out of my ass?

You say I am dismissive about other people's opinions? Gee, I wonder why...

QUOTE (AngelisStorm @ Dec 30 2009, 10:20 AM) *
There is simply no reason for highly trained individuals to be making 1-3k for doing -illegal- work. These are ex-Army rangers or special forces; they can go join Black Water (or 10,000 Daggers) and make fat-sacks-of-cash. Or steal cars and sell them to chop-shops (or hell, run one).


PMCs are corporations like any other. Ever had a look at how Blackwater for excemple fits our thir employees? In most cases they are about half a dozen men without body armor on an old, barely armored pickup truck with a few AKs. They are in the biz to make money and they sure as hell don't make money by making their employees rich.

On a sidenote: that 1-3K number was per run, so it would actually be 2-6K a MONTH, almost double the salary of a special forces lieutenant. Furthermore, I already conceded 5K per run as better number, which would turn out as about 10K a month. As your friends and parents what they would say about a 10K monthly salary...

Last, but not least, it is reasonable to expect that Corporate Black Ops teams will average close to the salary of trained special forces, albeit a bit higher. So let's say they pay 20% more (which is massive in economic terms), then your average Red Samurai would earn about 60,000 a YEAR.
If a corp would have to pay a runner team 20,000 per runner for a particular job, it would be financially feasible to hand it over to an in-house asset instead (read: it would be cheaper). Deniability can only account for so much.

QUOTE (AngelisStorm @ Dec 30 2009, 10:20 AM) *
I also don't believe you are -the- authority on illegal economics, unless you plan on throwing down some pretty impressive credentials.


Neither do I have "impressive credentials", nor did I claim any. All I have are common sense, real life numbers and 20+ years of shadowrun experience (which a LOT of other people can list on their resumes as well). What I DO have, however, are arguments. Rational, reasonable arguments, backed by real numbers, actual modern day salaries as well as offical CGL SR adventure payouts.

That is heckload more than what you had to offer so far.

QUOTE (AngelisStorm @ Dec 30 2009, 10:20 AM) *
And finally, as already mentioned, your system would not allow characters such as riggers and street sams advancement. Let alone mages who would like some foci someday.


That statement needs evidence to back it up. Since "improvement" is a subjective term, that stetement is ridiculous to start with. But even if we would define improvement as substantial growth in ability, Riggers and street sams still have more than enough opportunity to grow.
If new toys and 'ware are nescesary, they don't nescessarily have to be paid for by cash. They could be special arrangements with your employer.

If your idea of "Rigger improvement" consists of "getting that MiG-37", you already have a pretty warped view on (SR) reality. And believe it or not, not every Rigger needs a Naval Ship-to-Ship Laser on their Partyvan.

QUOTE (AngelisStorm @ Dec 30 2009, 10:20 AM) *
I haven't responded to several other posts because I don't like your writing style (I will hold back "attitude" for the moment), but really man. Your opinion that there are not illegal activies out there (in the fictional setting of SR, let alone the real world) which are worth more than 20K is laughable. Sure, you can pay a gang member a few thousand to drive-by someone, but you think a professional is going to kill someone for that amount? ohplease.gif


I even listed an official payout for high-profile wetwork: 250,000 for the team (found in "Ghost Cartels"). I also mentioned why those types of runs are extremely dangerous and extremely rare (there are only so many high profile targets to begin with). As far as real-life wetwork goes: You can pay a ganger a couple hundred bucks and he will kill someone for you. Life is cheap these days. It is even cheaper in SR's 2070s.

Last but not least, even WHEN there are jobs in SR that warrant a payout above 50K per team, it is often more feasible (from a financial perspective) for a corp to simply use in-house assets instead.


Now whether you like my style (or attitude) is quite frankyl none of my concern. If you want me to take your opinion serious, you need to provide rational and/or reasonable numbers or arguments. So far all you brought to the table were emotional statements (some of them facts) which had no impact on my arguments.

And while you may not like my attitude, keep in mind that I replied to your post in full, I read it in full, I did not resort to insults or personal attacks and I still treat you with respect. I expect the same in return.
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