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D2F
QUOTE (Draco18s @ Jan 2 2010, 11:43 PM) *
Right here:



You're declaring the argument made as false because the other person isn't understanding your argument correctly.


Then you are obviously unable to read as well well. I didn't write that he wouldn't understand my argument (actually, I said the exact opposite), but that he didn't read it (since what he claimed I expressed had nothing to do with what I actually wrote)

QUOTE (Jaid @ Jan 2 2010, 11:58 PM) *
plus, this still leaves the fact that the quality still makes no sense as written; why would you have to pay off the debt in karma as well as nuyen? it makes much more sense to either keep it as a 0 point quality, or change it to something like "wasteful lifestyle", and have it add a flat X nuyen per month to lifestyle costs (which would also fit in much better with it being a quality, since that is actually something inherent to the character). or, for that matter, including both as options (the 0 point in debt quality, and the variable BP wasteful lifestyle quality)


You don't have to pay off the debt with both. It's either or: You can reduce the debt by paying it off, reducing the monthly interests accordingly. IN other words, you can rduce it to 0 monthly interest, by simply paying off the debt with Nuyen. Alternatively, you can pay it off with karma.
Mx
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Jan 4 2010, 05:00 AM) *
Don't forget born rich which can net you an additional 10 bp for +50,000 Nuyen...

Keep the Faith

Yeah and with RAW you can take 20k nuyen.gif depth to cover the cost of both Born rich and those extra 50k nuyen.gif , so you can get 70k nuyen.gif for free at chargen.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Mäx @ Jan 4 2010, 09:40 AM) *
Yeah and with RAW you can take 20k nuyen.gif depth to cover the cost of both Born rich and those extra 50k nuyen.gif , so you can get 70k nuyen.gif for free at chargen.



So...

Keep the Faith
Jaid
QUOTE (D2F @ Jan 4 2010, 10:25 AM) *
You don't have to pay off the debt with both. It's either or: You can reduce the debt by paying it off, reducing the monthly interests accordingly. IN other words, you can rduce it to 0 monthly interest, by simply paying off the debt with Nuyen. Alternatively, you can pay it off with karma.


in which case, we would suddenly have a quality that does not act like a quality at all, because for every single other quality you have to buy it off with karma, and proper roleplaying (ie paying off the debt with cash) merely permits you to spend the karma to buy off the quality in the first place...

on the other hand, as a "zero point quality" (or, in other words, not really a quality at all), it makes a lot more sense imo, and also serves to make it less ludicrously appealing (unless you force people to buy off the quality with karma the way they would any other quality, i can't think of any reason not to take in debt other than either wanting other negative qualities for roleplaying reasons, or not wanting to abuse a quality that is really easy to abuse).

as it stands in the RAW, i feel that in-debt is just too good. allowing access to resources without spending BP on it is already a good deal (especially for some archetypes). *giving* people BP in exchange for getting access to resources without spending BP is just way too good (and allowing it to exceed the resource cap is just an added benefit; one which doesn't particularly bother me personally, or at least not nearly as much as getting free resources with a side order of bonus BP).
Tsuul
QUOTE
in which case, we would suddenly have a quality that does not act like a quality at all, because for every single other quality you have to buy it off with karma,
Sensitive System can just rot on a character that never intends to install any cyber. Don't think of buying off In-Debt with cash; instead think of it as reducing its impact.
etherial
QUOTE (Tsuul @ Jan 5 2010, 02:41 AM) *
Sensitive System can just rot on a character that never intends to install any cyber. Don't think of buying off In-Debt with cash; instead think of it as reducing its impact.


"Awakened/Technomancer with no 'Ware" is the only character type that I forbid from buying Sensitive System.
Tyro
QUOTE (etherial @ Jan 5 2010, 07:39 AM) *
"Awakened/Technomancer with no 'Ware" is the only character type that I forbid from buying Sensitive System.

A Sourcerer (Technomancer stream) gets a big boost from Cerebral Boosters (since they use Logic + Will for fading and specialize in threading), and mages benefit greatly from cybereyes (can target spells with extra senses, something you can't do through shades), pain editors, and in the case of Logic-based traditions, cerebral boosters. Adepts do much better from a min/max perspective with synaptic boosters than the improved reflexes power. Sensitive System is a disadvantage for nearly anyone; technomancers MIGHT be an exception, considering how many rolls Resonance applies to, but not Awakened.

Incidentally, this is why I support limiting Adept powers with ratings to (Magic/2), round down. 'Ware is much less tempting when it limits your combat sense to R2.
Jaid
QUOTE (Tsuul @ Jan 5 2010, 02:41 AM) *
Don't think of buying off In-Debt with cash; instead think of it as reducing its impact.


if you are removing the effect of the quality, then you have for all intents removed the quality entirely. if i decide that i'm going to break my addiction to jazz (or whatever other drug) do i suddenly not have to buy off the quality? if i get a rare gene treatment that cures simsense vertigo, do i not have to pay karma? if i pay off all the principal in my 20,000 nuyen debt, then i have just gotten rid of the debt, which is a negative quality. why would it work differently from other qualities?

either the quality follows the rules for being a quality, or don't make it a quality. getting rid of the quality (and being in debt for zero nuyen is the same as getting rid of the quality) means you have to pay karma to get rid of the quality. otherwise it just becomes way too good of a deal (and it's already a ridiculously good deal).

if it looks like a pig, sounds like a pig, and smells like a pig, then why would you insist on calling it a duck?
Tsuul
QUOTE (Jaid @ Jan 6 2010, 02:16 AM) *
...
either the quality follows the rules for being a quality, or don't make it a quality. getting rid of the quality (and being in debt for zero nuyen is the same as getting rid of the quality) means you have to pay karma to get rid of the quality. otherwise it just becomes way too good of a deal (and it's already a ridiculously good deal).
...

It doesn't work like other qualities because it [specifically] has rules for reducing it's impact. It is only a good deal if the GM lets the player pay it off within a couple of sessions. Besides, the In-Debt 0 nuyen.gif quality stays on the character's sheet. A GM can still occasionally hose the player over with it.

How horrific of a negative quality could this be in a street level game?
Jaid
QUOTE (Tsuul @ Jan 6 2010, 04:55 PM) *
It doesn't work like other qualities because it [specifically] has rules for reducing it's impact. It is only a good deal if the GM lets the player pay it off within a couple of sessions. Besides, the In-Debt 0 nuyen.gif quality stays on the character's sheet. A GM can still occasionally hose the player over with it.

How horrific of a negative quality could this be in a street level game?

hose them how? by having someone lean on them to forgive them of their 0 nuyen debt? i can just see it now:

"Hey, if you can't afford to pay the nothing you owe me, i'm gonna have to bust your legs... or you can go on this suicide run that'll earn me a crapload of money, but you have to do it for free."

"ummm... here's the nothing i owe you. you seriously came here to make me pay nothing?"

"oh, well then, since that's taken care of, i guess you don't have to go run any errands for me after all. err... i'll just let myself out the front door, shall i?"

if it needs to be treated completely differently to other negative qualities, then it shouldn't be a negative quality. heck, it doesn't even really make sense as any sort of quality. it isn't really something that can be described as inherent to your character. now, a character who has a negative quality that forces them to waste a similar amount of money per month to reflect poor money management or something (and can't be paid off with mere cash) would make sense.
Tyro
Remember that there IS a precedent for 0-point qualities (Optional Rule: Code of Conduct; RC 99-100). As a rule they give a benefit and a drawback. In the case of In Debt, the benefit would be the money and the drawback would be having to pay it back (and possibly do favors on top of cash payments in the meantime).
Tsuul
QUOTE (Jaid @ Jan 7 2010, 01:17 AM) *
hose them how?
The loaner is a person or group that know an awe-full lot about the character, enough to be able to track him (or his friends/family) down for collection -- back when there was a debt. He can still profit by that knowledge.
QUOTE
if it needs to be treated completely differently to other negative qualities, then it shouldn't be a negative quality
It doesn't need to be treated any different than any other negative quality. If you want to remove it, you pay karma. If you want to reduce it's impact, you pay it off. Again, there are negative qualities out there that have less impact on certain characters.

If the GM is running a game where the debt can easily be paid off, then this isn't a well rounded quality for that game. At which point reducing the BPs that this gives might be a good idea.

edit:
*- To further clarify, I consider the BPs earned from picking up the In-Debt quality sufficiently paid off once the nuyen debt is paid. The only reasons to call in the knowledge of the loanshark would be 1) a nudge reminder that the quality is there and 2) story/plot development.
Mx
QUOTE (Tyro @ Jan 7 2010, 08:21 AM) *
Remember that there IS a precedent for 0-point qualities (Optional Rule: Code of Conduct; RC 99-100).

The guy with a cool avatar say what?
Code of Conduct is a 5BP positive quality.
Draco18s
QUOTE (Mäx @ Jan 7 2010, 03:22 PM) *
The guy with a cool avatar say what?
Code of Conduct is a 5BP positive quality.


I'd like to highlight something

QUOTE (Tyro @ Jan 7 2010, 01:21 AM) *
(Optional Rule: Code of Conduct; RC 99-100)

Jaid
QUOTE (Draco18s @ Jan 7 2010, 03:55 PM) *
I'd like to highlight something

perhaps you quoted the wrong person... Max (sorry about the mangling of your name) has a point.

QUOTE (Runner's Companion @ Page 99)
A code of conduct is a 5 BP Positive quality...


(edit: that said, i would certainly agree that code of conduct *should* be a 0 BP quality, but it isn't)
Tyro
QUOTE (Mäx @ Jan 7 2010, 01:22 PM) *
The guy with a cool avatar say what?
Code of Conduct is a 5BP positive quality.

How the hell did I miss that? I retract my comment, then. It really SHOULD be 0.

My avatar is actually one of the standard ones (I couldn't find a way to put in a custom one; I suspect it's a jealously guarded privilege of the Mod class). You just have to have the patience to search for the perfect one (they certainly have a lot!)
Draco18s
QUOTE (Jaid @ Jan 7 2010, 07:33 PM) *
perhaps you quoted the wrong person... Max (sorry about the mangling of your name) has a point.

(edit: that said, i would certainly agree that code of conduct *should* be a 0 BP quality, but it isn't)


I was AFB, so I was taking a stab.
Omenowl
I don't mind in debt as long as the player understands that they can not have any money to start off with despite their lifestyle. It is a great motivator to get a player to take missions that pay low and are risky especially if they are middle or high lifestyle.

"Yes, you will need 9500-14500 nuyen per month. Lets see most missions pay 3-5k. I think somebody is going to have to work really hard this month..."
Mx
QUOTE (Jaid @ Jan 8 2010, 02:33 AM) *
perhaps you quoted the wrong person... Max (sorry about the mangling of your name) has a point.

It's okey you didn't mangle it nearly as bad as the forums do these days, i cant even figure what 2 middle characters are. it should be Mx

QUOTE (Tyro @ Jan 8 2010, 06:17 AM) *
My avatar is actually one of the standard ones (I couldn't find a way to put in a custom one; I suspect it's a jealously guarded privilege of the Mod class). You just have to have the patience to search for the perfect one (they certainly have a lot!)

I know it is i just meant you made a good choise.
Tyro
QUOTE (Mäx @ Jan 9 2010, 03:30 PM) *
It's okey you didn't mangle it nearly as bad as the forums do these days, i cant even figure what 2 middle characters are. it should be Mx


I know it is i just meant you made a good choise. [sic]

First, ouch. I'm sorry the forums mangled your name.

Second, thank you. I've always had a thing for cats ^_^
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