Another In Debt Poll, Should it be a zero-point quality? Options

[IceKatze]

hi hi

To answer the original question, I think the "In Debt" flaw should be replaced with an edge called "Not in Debt," that a character must buy in order to be not in debt at character generation.

[Ascalaphus]

I'm struggling with the tendency towards major looting that my players seem to have. I think I'm going to try the following;

- The pay scale for runs will be significant
- The typical value of loot will be relatively low; except for slow-looting stuff like cyberware, or bulky vehicles and such
- Downtime expenses and fencing expenses will also be significant

All in all, making sure to complete the run, and only looting a few things when a great opportunity presents itself, should keep the tone of the game the way I like it. It should also make running more attractive than stealing cars.

As for the Why Run question: I like the SINless angle. Most runners are technically illegal aliens, to be deported, imprisoned or shot. Legal work is hard to come by. Eventually getting enough money to buy a SIN and retire in luxury should be a runner's dream. But they constantly get dragged back into the shadows by debts to the Mob, people who want "one last favor", old enemies who're not as dead as believed, young runners who want to make a name for themselves by killing the most famous team around, trouble in the neighborhood and only someone outside the law can deal with it, etc.

[D2F]

I'm struggling with the tendency towards major looting that my players seem to have. I think I'm going to try the following;

- The pay scale for runs will be significant
- The typical value of loot will be relatively low; except for slow-looting stuff like cyberware, or bulky vehicles and such
- Downtime expenses and fencing expenses will also be significant

All in all, making sure to complete the run, and only looting a few things when a great opportunity presents itself, should keep the tone of the game the way I like it. It should also make running more attractive than stealing cars.

As for the Why Run question: I like the SINless angle. Most runners are technically illegal aliens, to be deported, imprisoned or shot. Legal work is hard to come by. Eventually getting enough money to buy a SIN and retire in luxury should be a runner's dream. But they constantly get dragged back into the shadows by debts to the Mob, people who want "one last favor", old enemies who're not as dead as believed, young runners who want to make a name for themselves by killing the most famous team around, trouble in the neighborhood and only someone outside the law can deal with it, etc.

Instead of increasing the payout, I would suggest the following:

- let them get caught if they try to loot during a run
- If they dabble in organ legging or used cyber-/bioware, have tamanous or the police knock on their doors. Maybe afriendly ghoul hitsquad will wake them up a bit.
- Throw them into prison by the police that arrives while they loot stuff on the open street.
- Use corpsec reinforcements regulary, on a fixed response schedule (just having them magically pop up, whenever they loot is silly. They should be on a relistic response timer)
- have prices drop for their loot because of an excessive supply (thanks to the runners)
- have the "competition" show up. Arms dealers, organ leggers and smugglers are not particularly fond of "unregistered" competition. They might even work together to get rid of the "parvenus".
- Have them aquire the nescessary skills to properly salvage loot in the first place.
- narrow down the time windows during the adventure climax

Just to give a few hints. What you do in your group is your own choice, obviously.

[Jaid]

i should point out that if the PCs are looting weapons, gear, corpses, etc, then odds are good that they are selling those things to the organisations that you are claiming would treat them as competition. ie, if a team is organlegging, odds are good they aren't competitors with tamanous; they're employees (albeit not direct employees).

additionally, there are plenty of times when looting is not going to take long. if the hacker has already broken into the system, he may as well copy a few interesting-looking files. if you've already infiltrated into the warehouse with a cargo vehicle that is going to be your getaway, you may as well load some cargo in. if you've already subverted the security network, you may as well record everything and sell information on that corp's defenses. and loot the weapons locker, if any. if you're already extracting a corp employee, you may as well grab anything that is reasonably valuable and light while you're at it.

the only reason not to is because you're being paid to be professional. and if you're getting next to nothing (ie the 1-3k nuyen per run) then you're not getting paid to be professional, in my opinion. the 5k is a little bit low imo (i would argue 5-10k is a more 'average' value; 20k per runner would be a fairly high paying run, but not unheard of... hundreds of thousands is likely to be incredibly rare, probably a once-in-a-lifetime event for most. and probably also Mr Johnson is planning on stabbing you in the back. a lot)

even at the 5-10k rate, i don't see it being enough to dissuade convenient looting, whether or not it makes them look "unprofessional".

that said, i do agree that common sense should be enforced; if someone is grabbing a stack of optical chips that's sitting next to the lab's computer and stuffing it into a wifi-inhibiting bag to be examined for valuable data later, no problem. on the other hand, if someone is taking time out of the run to break open a filing cabinet (or carrying a filing cabinet around) or going through all the security guard's lockers picking locks one at a time to steal their off-duty commlinks, that's another matter. but it doesn't take long to grab one or two things off a guard before security forces show up, either. but since we have no way of knowing which kind of looting your team was involved in, it's hard to make judgements on whether loose restrictions on the convenience of looting is the problem.

also, one thing D2F is actually right about is the relatively low value of most things they'll steal; when you apply all the modifiers to how much a fence is willing to pay for stuff, it winds up being a lot less than you might think unless you're grabbing some pretty decent stuff. that said, if you're only making 1-3k per run, even 300 nuyen becomes a pretty significant increase (especially if you're on the 1k end of that spectrum). if you're earning 7k on a run, then getting an extra 300 becomes a lot less impressive. if, by some chance, you actually are earning 20k on a run, then the 300 becomes even more insignificant, especially if you emphasise that carrying two dozen commlinks and handguns around is going to hinder their mobility (might be worth it for a 10-30% increase in pay, but not worth it for a less than 2% pay increase)

[D2F]

i should point out that if the PCs are looting weapons, gear, corpses, etc, then odds are good that they are selling those things to the organisations that you are claiming would treat them as competition. ie, if a team is organlegging, odds are good they aren't competitors with tamanous; they're employees (albeit not direct employees).

"Employees" working on their own. And who says Tamanous wants that much public attention atm? And how is your average weapons dealer going to sell those registered corpsec weapons? Why would he carry the risk? The list goes on. It is not reasonable to assume, that the established shadow economy welcomes "initiative" when it comes to their livelyhood. Also, supply and demand have an impact on price as well.

additionally, there are plenty of times when looting is not going to take long. if the hacker has already broken into the system, he may as well copy a few interesting-looking files.

Doable, but risky. I would certainly allow it. But both, his employer as well as his victim will not be pleased by his "initiative". It makes for bad business and certainly stains the rep.

if you've already infiltrated into the warehouse with a cargo vehicle that is going to be your getaway, you may as well load some cargo in.

Same as above.

if you've already subverted the security network, you may as well record everything and sell information on that corp's defenses. and loot the weapons locker, if any. if you're already extracting a corp employee, you may as well grab anything that is reasonably valuable and light while you're at it.

Keep in mind, that these action will draw additional enemies unto the runner (and his team). It only sounds feasible until the hit squads start knocking.

the only reason not to is because you're being paid to be professional.

Actually, I rate survival instinct higher than the payment...

and if you're getting next to nothing (ie the 1-3k nuyen per run) then you're not getting paid to be professional, in my opinion. the 5k is a little bit low imo (i would argue 5-10k is a more 'average' value; 20k per runner would be a fairly high paying run, but not unheard of... hundreds of thousands is likely to be incredibly rare, probably a once-in-a-lifetime event for most. and probably also Mr Johnson is planning on stabbing you in the back. a lot)

Based on the available official sources (read: CGL adventures), 5K is about the average per run. 10K is possible, but uncommon (not rare, though)
Also, keep in mind that 5,000¥ is a LOT of money.

even at the 5-10k rate, i don't see it being enough to dissuade convenient looting, whether or not it makes them look "unprofessional".

The main deterrent should be the obvious risk involved in looting. If you, as a GM are too lenient to let them feel the consequences of their actions, then they are not to blame.

that said, i do agree that common sense should be enforced; if someone is grabbing a stack of optical chips that's sitting next to the lab's computer and stuffing it into a wifi-inhibiting bag to be examined for valuable data later, no problem. on the other hand, if someone is taking time out of the run to break open a filing cabinet (or carrying a filing cabinet around) or going through all the security guard's lockers picking locks one at a time to steal their off-duty commlinks, that's another matter. but it doesn't take long to grab one or two things off a guard before security forces show up, either. but since we have no way of knowing which kind of looting your team was involved in, it's hard to make judgements on whether loose restrictions on the convenience of looting is the problem.

It's always a matter of how valuable the stuff was they took. If the grab a commlink or two or a pair of assault rifles, chances are neither the corp, nor the guards will even bother investigating. If the value becomes feasible (ranging in the several thousand Nuyen category, things change. A corp will most certainly not send a full hit squad after you, just for looting stuff worth fifteen grand. But do it repeatedly, or steal something worth a lot (say, a couple hundred thousand Nuyen) and your group will most likely face an untimely death by speeding .408 caliber bullet.

also, one thing D2F is actually right about is the relatively low value of most things they'll steal; when you apply all the modifiers to how much a fence is willing to pay for stuff, it winds up being a lot less than you might think unless you're grabbing some pretty decent stuff. that said, if you're only making 1-3k per run, even 300 nuyen becomes a pretty significant increase (especially if you're on the 1k end of that spectrum). if you're earning 7k on a run, then getting an extra 300 becomes a lot less impressive. if, by some chance, you actually are earning 20k on a run, then the 300 becomes even more insignificant, especially if you emphasise that carrying two dozen commlinks and handguns around is going to hinder their mobility (might be worth it for a 10-30% increase in pay, but not worth it for a less than 2% pay increase)

The volume of the stolen goods as well as the ability to carry them should always be considered by the GM.
Will character grab a valuable, small, private object when they get the chance to? Probably. Does this constitute a problem? Most likely not. I wouldn't even expect any consequences.

Stealing cyberware, high level paydata or valuable prototypes, WILL prompt a response.

Also, if looting becomes too much of a problem, consider biometric safeties for corp weapons, or personalizations (although it quickly becomes implausible when every corpsec runs around with a weapon with a personalized grip).

[Brazilian_Shinob...]

Consider the runners are doing a job that will pay them 3k. It is a simple infiltration job, grab the package and get out. If along the way, they put their hands on a vehicle (a cara costing 15k, for instance) fencing it would give 4.5k, if it is a 4-men team this would give each 1.1k giving a 30% profit over the initial payment. It is all a matter of economics and risk, if the runners are being paid good enough, they will only loot something if it is extremely expensive OR for personal close reasons. Like Jaid said, if they are being paid 10k already, earning 10% or less of the original payment by looting would be more rare.

[Ascalaphus]

Consider the runners are doing a job that will pay them 3k. It is a simple infiltration job, grab the package and get out. If along the way, they put their hands on a vehicle (a cara costing 15k, for instance) fencing it would give 4.5k, if it is a 4-men team this would give each 1.1k giving a 30% profit over the initial payment. It is all a matter of economics and risk, if the runners are being paid good enough, they will only loot something if it is extremely expensive OR for personal close reasons. Like Jaid said, if they are being paid 10k already, earning 10% or less of the original payment by looting would be more rare.

That's what I have in mind, yes. I've played in a run where we were paid 10K to extract someone, but ended up hijacking a security helicopter and fencing it for about a million..

Since you don't want the game to be about stealing helicopters instead of extractions, you should treat both sides of the equation. Fencing shouldn't be too easy. And the payment for a typical run should be more than enough to be the lion's share of the profits.

[Jaid]

"Employees" working on their own. And who says Tamanous wants that much public attention atm? And how is your average weapons dealer going to sell those registered corpsec weapons? Why would he carry the risk? The list goes on. It is not reasonable to assume, that the established shadow economy welcomes "initiative" when it comes to their livelyhood. Also, supply and demand have an impact on price as well.

why are they going to have this huge problem with you supplying them? legal weapon dealers won't come after you for selling illegal weapons; that's a different market, and they don't have the resources to do so anyways. illegal weapon dealers (or rather, the fences you sell to) will have ways of dealing with the weapon being registered. ultimately, that weapon is probably going to be purchased by the weapon dealers after being appropriately cleaned (if the PCs don't do it themselves, obviously they can expect less money) as part of the weapon dealer's stock.

also, if supply is higher, then they pay you less for the goods, in addition to (possibly) charging their customers less. if their expenses drop by 200 nuyen and their income drops by 200 nuyen, their net income remains the same. in fact, the percentage increases if that happens, because they invest 200 fewer nuyen to earn the same net income.

Doable, but risky. I would certainly allow it. But both, his employer as well as his victim will not be pleased by his "initiative". It makes for bad business and certainly stains the rep.

if the runners cared about the victim's feelings in the matter, they likely would not be breaking into the victim's facility and committing crimes that are most likely detrimental to the victim's financial well-being (and possibly detrimental in numerous other ways also). if the runners' employer cares, he should put in a no-looting clause, for which he should expect to pay a bit more.

Same as above.

right back at you.

Keep in mind, that these action will draw additional enemies unto the runner (and his team). It only sounds feasible until the hit squads start knocking.

for what? a few hundred nuyen worth of equipment? assuming they can even *find* the team, it probably isn't financially worth it to go after them unless they stole and also still have something expensive. if they weren't going to go after you for stealing their prototype when it was your main mission, they aren't going to go after you for stealing their prototype just because it wasn't your main mission. they're not psychic, you know.

Actually, I rate survival instinct higher than the payment...

this only applies when looting is going to get you killed. quite often, it does not carry any more risk to break into a corporate facility and loot something (provided some basic precautions are taken, like the wifi-inhibiting bag i mentioned) than it does to break into a corporate facility and commit any other crime there.

Based on the available official sources (read: CGL adventures), 5K is about the average per run. 10K is possible, but uncommon (not rare, though)
Also, keep in mind that 5,000¥ is a LOT of money.

5k is not a lot of money to the average street sam who wants to upgrade anything. neither is 10k for that matter. and i don't see why 10k would be all that uncommon. additionally, that's a pretty small sample.

The main deterrent should be the obvious risk involved in looting. If you, as a GM are too lenient to let them feel the consequences of their actions, then they are not to blame.

what obvious risk? precautionary measures are not excessively difficult to prevent it from being tracked.

It's always a matter of how valuable the stuff was they took. If the grab a commlink or two or a pair of assault rifles, chances are neither the corp, nor the guards will even bother investigating. If the value becomes feasible (ranging in the several thousand Nuyen category, things change. A corp will most certainly not send a full hit squad after you, just for looting stuff worth fifteen grand. But do it repeatedly, or steal something worth a lot (say, a couple hundred thousand Nuyen) and your group will most likely face an untimely death by speeding .408 caliber bullet.

so... several thousand nuyen is enough to make the corp hunt the team down? news flash: if the corp is paying the runner team 1,000 each (which you have indicated is the LOW end of your expected range of payouts) then odds are good that the objective of the run is worth a hell of a lot more to the target corp. so what you're saying is that EVERY run the team takes on, they can expect to get hunted down mercilessly and shot by corporate goon squads. now, if you're talking hundreds of thousands worth, maybe. i still rather suspect there are numerous runs that are worth that much anyways, but hey, if it's worth hundreds of thousands, that means you can afford to spend more money on your precautionary measures to avoid getting caught.

also, looting over time is largely irrelevant. unless the runners are dumb enough to hit the same facility half a dozen times leaving obvious signs that it's the same group, not an issue.

The volume of the stolen goods as well as the ability to carry them should always be considered by the GM.
Will character grab a valuable, small, private object when they get the chance to? Probably. Does this constitute a problem? Most likely not. I wouldn't even expect any consequences.

Stealing cyberware, high level paydata or valuable prototypes, WILL prompt a response.

it might, depending on how hard the runners make it for the person. remember, stealing high level paydata or valuable prototypes is often the GOAL of many shadowruns. if the corporation won't hunt them down for doing it as the main goal, they also won't hunt them down for doing it on the side. there is, however, the problem of finding a buyer for these things; if the group doesn't have one, it may not be worth their time to loot it.

Also, if looting becomes too much of a problem, consider biometric safeties for corp weapons, or personalizations (although it quickly becomes implausible when every corpsec runs around with a weapon with a personalized grip).

this is fine for weapons (actually, the biometric safeties is very reasonable; too bad it can likely be hacked, given a bit of downtime, and reset) but still leaves dozens of other things as being lootable. furthermore, while it decreases the value of weapons, it does not reduce it to zero. if the group feels they aren't getting enough money, they will still loot.

[Brazilian_Shinob...]

That's what I have in mind, yes. I've played in a run where we were paid 10K to extract someone, but ended up hijacking a security helicopter and fencing it for about a million..

Since you don't want the game to be about stealing helicopters instead of extractions, you should treat both sides of the equation. Fencing shouldn't be too easy. And the payment for a typical run should be more than enough to be the lion's share of the profits.

And while I would give your players a street cred point for hijacking the chopper, I would also make sure that whomever owned the chopper before would go after you, your girlfriend, your parents, your dog and your old friend from school ...

[Larme]

I have a question about the poll's first question. It's a yes or no question. How can there be an "other?" Is that the option for people who want to answer with a non sequitur? Like, instead of yes or no, I want to answer "up" or "happy birthday!"

[Ascalaphus]

I have a question about the poll's first question. It's a yes or no question. How can there be an "other?" Is that the option for people who want to answer with a non sequitur? Like, instead of yes or no, I want to answer "up" or "happy birthday!"

It fits my answer (both):

A) In Debt should be available as a 0-BP quality that gives you money and a debt
B) In Debt should also be available as a BP quality that only gives BP, not a (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) debt, but a debt to be repaid in favors (karma). And obviously, time spent on these favors isn't time spent on self-improvement, hence the karma loss.

[D2F]

why are they going to have this huge problem with you supplying them?

I am not going to reply step by step on this one. Not because I don't want to address your points, but because it already turned into a massive wall of text, so I think it will be easier to communicate without dozens of quote chunks littering the page.

I would like to address a few things:

1) There is a difference between "looting" the objective of the run and looting for added payout. If you steal the datachip your Jhonson hired you for, the Corp you stole from will not be pissed at you. They know it's part of the business and they know your role in the situation was that of a henchman. They will be mad at your Jhonson and his/her employers.
Now, if you start to grab some extra paydata while you just happen to be in the system, you are breaking one of the unwritten rules of the "game". At this point it becomes personal for the corp. You can read the exact same things in "Mr Jhonson's Black Book", so you don't have to trust my word on it.

2) No one is going to hunt down your team for something worth a few hundred Nuyen. I said that before and it ould be preposterous to assume as much. Then again, we're not talking about a few hundred Nuyen here. If it was about 500 Nuyen more for the Job, we wouldn't even have this argument. The reason we DO have this argument is because some people here seem to think that 10K Nuyen are "peanuts" and that "no one would risk their life for peanuts". I have proven that to be inaccurate.

3) Average payment per run: I don't care what kind of emotional justification you try to pull out of your hat. I don't care whether your players want more money. I don't care whether your players think their character should resort to looting. The mere fact they even consider 5K a run insufficient is proof enough that they have no concept of money. That they have no concept of the financial situation in the Shadowrun Universe.
All you need to do is to ask yourself: How much money do YOU (the player) earn each month right now? Just compare the two numbers...
And if that is not enough info for you, let's have a look at the numbers for Seattle (only listng districts with <70% corporate affiliation):

Everett: 58,500¥ average annual income
Renton: 90,000¥ average annual income
Auburn: 32,000¥ average annual income
Fort Lewis: 30,000¥ average annual income
Redmond: 6,600¥ average annual income
Pyuallup: 6,200¥ average annual income
Council Island: 65,000¥ average annual income

Looking at those numbers, how could you possibly justify a 10K+ payout as "normal"? There will be plenty of capable runners in Redmond and Pyuallup that will do the Job for half the price, if you don't want to take it.

4) Fencing stuff without the proper permissions from the criminal underworld is a surefire way to be put out of business. permanently. Tamanous won't be too thrilled if you start selling organs and "used" bio- and cyberware, even if you sell it to them. The reason is simple: publicity. If your group starts to make Jack the Ripper look bad, then that gets attention. Police forces cannot ignore mass murder. Especially if it start to carry the signs of a serial killer. Tamanous would not be pleased by the additional "attention" they would get as a sideeffect of your group's actions.
Also, fencing hot goods is not only a matter of money. You mentioned weapons dealers. The problem is not so much "cleaning" the guns, it's the baggage they carry with them. The datatrail that then leads to the dealer and the sudden change in health risk assessment to the worse that comes with it.

[Ascalaphus]

I like your post, you have interesting and good ideas. Just a few notes..

1) There is a difference between "looting" the objective of the run and looting for added payout. If you steal the datachip your Jhonson hired you for, the Corp you stole from will not be pissed at you. They know it's part of the business and they know your role in the situation was that of a henchman. They will be mad at your Jhonson and his/her employers.
Now, if you start to grab some extra paydata while you just happen to be in the system, you are breaking one of the unwritten rules of the "game". At this point it becomes personal for the corp. You can read the exact same things in "Mr Jhonson's Black Book", so you don't have to trust my word on it.

I like the idea of a "game" with unwritten rules, but they differ from GM to GM and city to city. That said, unwritten rules make sense; real societies often have customs that aren't strictly rational or up to date.

3) Average payment per run: I don't care what kind of emotional justification you try to pull out of your hat. I don't care whether your players want more money. I don't care whether your players think their character should resort to looting. The mere fact they even consider 5K a run insufficient is proof enough that they have no concept of money. That they have no concept of the financial situation in the Shadowrun Universe.
All you need to do is to ask yourself: How much money do YOU (the player) earn each month right now? Just compare the two numbers...
And if that is not enough info for you, let's have a look at the numbers for Seattle (only listng districts with <70% corporate affiliation):

Everett: 58,500¥ average annual income
Renton: 90,000¥ average annual income
Auburn: 32,000¥ average annual income
Fort Lewis: 30,000¥ average annual income
Redmond: 6,600¥ average annual income
Pyuallup: 6,200¥ average annual income
Council Island: 65,000¥ average annual income

Looking at those numbers, how could you possibly justify a 10K+ payout as "normal"? There will be plenty of capable runners in Redmond and Pyuallup that will do the Job for half the price, if you don't want to take it.

I'm not sure there are plenty of capable runners; 400BP does put people above the norm. Also, 10K+ is likely before expenses; special ammo, weapons, upgrades are all expensive.

Another factor is frequency of jobs; this is again GM-dependent. It suits my group to have new missions start on the actual calendar date +52 years. It generally means that there will be 1-2 months of downtime between missions, which eats into the lifestyle costs. An income of 10K+ per run is required to stay comfortably in a low lifestyle, maybe even a middle lifestyle.

I like it when PCs can afford some vices; like living like kings between missions, funding charities, or indulging in expensive addictions.

There's also an aspect of danger money; the bigger the potential risks of getting caught, and the severity of the consequences, must be paid for. Life-threatening jobs pay a lot better than safe office jobs. The exceptions are non-union unarmed dangerous jobs and upper management.




As for something people here addressed, why not keep the job in-house to cut down on costs? Deniable assets. If it goes wrong, you don't want to get sued in the corporate court. If it goes right, it's still better if it's deniable you had anything to do with it. That extra deniability is worth money.

[Tsuul]

At this point it becomes personal for the corp. You can read the exact same things in "Mr Jhonson's Black Book", so you don't have to trust my word on it.

I'm having trouble finding this in my copy. Got a page?

[D2F]

I'm having trouble finding this in my copy. Got a page?

Don't have it as a pdf, so I'd have to go through the paperback version. I'll post a quote when I am back in germany.

[Jaid]

1) it's *never* personal with a corporation. coporations don't get personal. they don't care about revenge, they care about profit. and given the only way they're likely to know you swiped extra data if you were reasonably careful is to find it for sale, and they have no way of knowing if it was even you (remember, you use pseudonyms and work through multiple layers of people for a reason), and the person you sold to has a vested interest in not telling on you, odds are good that they will never find out who did it with any degree of certainty (it could be a leak in their own company after all) and that even if they do, they aren't going to send good money after bad, because it's a corporation. i suppose if you steal from the mafia, that changes things. and again, you haven't resolved to my satisfaction: how the hell do they know it wasn't the objective? does your mr johnson call ahead and let them know he's sending a team to come by and pick up their super-secret prototype and nothing else?

2) then we're agreed. looting is not going to bring down the wrath of god upon you. so why do you have these wall of text posts about how looting is going to bring the wrath of god down upon the characters, again? i will repeat: the crappier you pay the team, the more incentive they have to loot. selling looted gear for 500 nuyen is a HUGE pay increase on a 1k nuyen run. it is pretty unimpressive on a 5k run. it is quite lackluster in a 10k run. if you don't want the runners to stop to loot 500 nuyen worth of random crap that's going to encumber them, then by simply putting runs into the 5-10k region of payouts, you have solved the problem.

3) that's nice. guess what: i don't have "i need to get an upgrade to my 'ware so that i'm less likely to die" expense. or an "oh crap, i just lost a couple of drones worth 5,000 nuyen each" expense (and 5k nuyen apiece is not a lot to spend on drones, either). or an "i'm going to be in a hospital for the next few weeks because i got shot on the job and i can't use my health insurance because they'll report it to the cops and the job in question was illegal" expense.

4) so let's get this straight: your opinion is that there are multiple types of criminals whose job it is to purchase stolen or otherwise illegally acquired goods (or information, or whatever), but that anyone who sells goods (or information, or whatever) to these people are basically signing their own death sentence? because that's what it sounds like you're saying. also, the nonsense about drawing attention to tamanous with your actions: how do you figure that? i mean, are we assuming the runners walk down the street in broad daylight and knock on the door at a public hospital and start shouting "hey, i'm looking for tamanous so i can sell the organs of this guy i just killed!" or something? because (and apparently this must sound crazy to you) i would have assumed that it involved an unmarked van pulling up to an unmarked building (possibly/probably a shadow clinic) and dropping off the bodies sometime when it's dark, and the locals know better than to pay any attention (and/or are part of the operation). unless you have a habit of driving down the street advertising that you have corpses for sale, i don't see how you'd be particularly drawing attention to them.

[Draco18s]

I'm going to pipe up on point 2:

Lifestyle costs take a huge chunk of change right out of the pocket. My current character spends (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) 6000/mo. staying alive above and beyond what he's going to need for a run (which, for him, is going to be remarkably little: I don't plan on being shot, I don't use a gun, grenades, or other expendables* at current).

*Infiltration is the game, being seen and shot means I did something wrong. I will however note that even my gunbunnies are cautious and use cover and spend dodge actions: getting shot is bad.

[D2F]

1) it's *never* personal with a corporation. coporations don't get personal. they don't care about revenge, they care about profit.

Letting punks steal your goods without retaliation is bad for profit. It invites more punks to try to pull the same stunt on you.

2) then we're agreed. looting is not going to bring down the wrath of god upon you. so why do you have these wall of text posts about how looting is going to bring the wrath of god down upon the characters, again? i will repeat: the crappier you pay the team, the more incentive they have to loot. selling looted gear for 500 nuyen is a HUGE pay increase on a 1k nuyen run. it is pretty unimpressive on a 5k run. it is quite lackluster in a 10k run. if you don't want the runners to stop to loot 500 nuyen worth of random crap that's going to encumber them, then by simply putting runs into the 5-10k region of payouts, you have solved the problem.

You solved a "problem" that doesn't really exist. Your "problem" is player greed, plain and simple. And your "solution" is simply unrealistic for the SR universe. I Provided you with numbers and official sources and all YOU got was "well, my players are greedy f***s". That's not an argument, that's a character flaw.

3) that's nice. guess what: i don't have "i need to get an upgrade to my 'ware so that i'm less likely to die" expense. or an "oh crap, i just lost a couple of drones worth 5,000 nuyen each" expense (and 5k nuyen apiece is not a lot to spend on drones, either). or an "i'm going to be in a hospital for the next few weeks because i got shot on the job and i can't use my health insurance because they'll report it to the cops and the job in question was illegal" expense.

Better planning next time and the team has less expenses. I see no reason why a GM should reward player incompetence.

4) so let's get this straight: your opinion is that there are multiple types of criminals whose job it is to purchase stolen or otherwise illegally acquired goods (or information, or whatever), but that anyone who sells goods (or information, or whatever) to these people are basically signing their own death sentence?

Are strawmen arguments the best you can do? This is really getting tiresome. I was not talking about people being PAID to do that kind of stuff, but about those who it WITHOUT PERMISSION. I don't know how I can make this any clearer for you.

Seriously, if you don't have an actual argument, why are you even still babbling?

[...], i don't see how you'd be particularly drawing attention to them.

You DO realize that an active police investigation force, looking into mass murder and alleged ties to organ legging could POSSIBLY interfere with Tamanous activities, do you? I mean that "wall of ignorance" move is cute for a while, but I think you used the cute factor up and are now nearing annoying.

[Draco18s]

You DO realize that an active police investigation force, looking into mass murder and alleged ties to organ legging could POSSIBLY interfere with Tamanous activities, do you? I mean that "wall of ignorance" move is cute for a while, but I think you used the cute factor up and are now nearing annoying.

What police investigation? This is a dystopia we're talking about. Cops beat people up for money, and if it doesn't lead anywhere they beat up some more people because they can.

Hell, the cops in ShadowRun don't "investigate" anything. If they see criminals, they'll pursue and shoot, but they have no real obligation to track them down later. Especially when they're being paid on both sides of the fence: you really going to snoop around one client's secret files so you can catch some street punks for another client? I'm betting the first client wouldn't like that very much.

Lone Star is not a public service. They're a PAID, HIRED, VIGILANTE corporation. And a AAA corp as well, IIRC.

[Ascalaphus]

1) it's *never* personal with a corporation. coporations don't get personal.

Well, unless it is. For example, if you just ruined the pet project of someone with enough pull to enact revenge. Corporation policy isn't to get personal, but corporations are run by people, and they do wacky things sometimes.

4) so let's get this straight: your opinion is that there are multiple types of criminals whose job it is to purchase stolen or otherwise illegally acquired goods (or information, or whatever), but that anyone who sells goods (or information, or whatever) to these people are basically signing their own death sentence? because that's what it sounds like you're saying. also, the nonsense about drawing attention to tamanous with your actions: how do you figure that? i mean, are we assuming the runners walk down the street in broad daylight and knock on the door at a public hospital and start shouting "hey, i'm looking for tamanous so i can sell the organs of this guy i just killed!" or something? because (and apparently this must sound crazy to you) i would have assumed that it involved an unmarked van pulling up to an unmarked building (possibly/probably a shadow clinic) and dropping off the bodies sometime when it's dark, and the locals know better than to pay any attention (and/or are part of the operation). unless you have a habit of driving down the street advertising that you have corpses for sale, i don't see how you'd be particularly drawing attention to them.

Probably Tamanous has a very specific plan on how to acquire their stuff without going too far. They're good at that; they know what they can and can't do. What they do not want is a) competition, or b) people who are so helpful they make you look bad, or c) people who mess with your elaborate setup.

I'm going to pipe up on point 2:

Lifestyle costs take a huge chunk of change right out of the pocket. My current character spends (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) 6000/mo. staying alive above and beyond what he's going to need for a run (which, for him, is going to be remarkably little: I don't plan on being shot, I don't use a gun, grenades, or other expendables* at current).

*Infiltration is the game, being seen and shot means I did something wrong. I will however note that even my gunbunnies are cautious and use cover and spend dodge actions: getting shot is bad.

However, sometimes expensive expendables are necessary; to fight weird critters and big things. To maintain safe houses. To bribe people.

You solved a "problem" that doesn't really exist. Your "problem" is player greed, plain and simple. And your "solution" is simply unrealistic for the SR universe. I Provided you with numbers and official sources and all YOU got was "well, my players are greedy f***s". That's not an argument, that's a character flaw.

Well, your numbers weren't that convincing; you ignored several reasons why higher payout makes sense (rare levels of skill, danger money, discretion money, long intervals between jobs money, job expenses...)

Better planning next time and the team has less expenses. I see no reason why a GM should reward player incompetence.

We don't want to play Accountant: the Budget Approval Process here. When you hire mercenaries to break the law for you, brave cutting edge security, and be discreet about it, you expect it to be expensive.

What police investigation? This is a dystopia we're talking about. Cops beat people up for money, and if it doesn't lead anywhere they beat up some more people because they can.

Hell, the cops in ShadowRun don't "investigate" anything. If they see criminals, they'll pursue and shoot, but they have no real obligation to track them down later. Especially when they're being paid on both sides of the fence: you really going to snoop around one client's secret files so you can catch some street punks for another client? I'm betting the first client wouldn't like that very much.

Well, that's being just a bit over the top and unrealistic about the dystopia. Tamanous prospers because it intimidates the police, but also because it lies low and is very secretive. In all the fluff, no one seems to know who really runs it; most AAA corporations are more transparent about their black projects than Tamanous.

Keeping the masses quiet is best done by at least appearing to be doing a good job. The pretense of actually serving the public is very effective, but it requires visible action against visible enemies of the public. (You can be bribed for ineffective action, but it's gotta be pubic.)

Lone Star is not a public service. They're a PAID, HIRED, VIGILANTE corporation. And a AAA corp as well, IIRC.

AA actually. And companies need to be seen to do their job to keep their contract; something Seattle 2072 shows..

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

As you wish.

I've been playing SR since '89. I've seen all types of groups, ragning from table grouos, to online groups and conventions. Thus I have also seen quite a few gamemasters and different campaigns.
Of course, if you want to play a completely unrealistic game, you are free to do so. I imagine times when our group was paid 10-20M¥ per run. I imagine groups, where my rigger had a tilt-wing (self-built and designed), a heavily modified conestoga Bergen as his luxury RV, a heavily modified Zeppelin Blimp as his flying fortress, his own weapons manufacture, his own delta-clinic and was cybered out up the whazoo with delta-ware.

I know such groups exist because I played in them. And as long as it is fun for everyone, who cares how realistic they are. But this discussion is about how valid the "In Debt" quality is. You cannot use artificially twisted numbers for such a comparison. If you intend to run a deltaware campaign, you simply need to adjust the quality, it's that simple. For a standard campaign, it is just fine.

No corporation will hire runners for a job that costs them 10M¥. Period. It's just not financially feasible.

Since I am getting bored going through adventures, I'll just stop here. I would be willing concede to 5,000¥ per runner as an average payment per run, but anything beyond that is clearly implausible.
If your group as expenses that go beyond these payments, you may want to consider cutting down on your expenses. A run without a shot fired is a well planned run, after all.

Your resume does not impress me, also been playing since Shadowrun came out.. big deal...

First... I agree... the In Debt Quality is just fine, no matter what level of play you aspire to...

Second... the average Karma Award for the table I play at is now at 200+ Karma... The Longest surviving character has 280+, while I am at 240 or so as well as the mage... the newest members are at 180 or so... Our average run nets us between 15 and 30,000 Nuyen each (the 800,000 Nuyen run we completed was a VP Corporate Extraction that netted the individuals involved 105,000 Nuyen each, which quickly disappeared... we still sometimes have problems paying our Upkeep from time to time), this run we are currently pursuing (the BIG one) has been going on for almost a year now in game (and out of game), and may still result in all of our deaths, as we are a ways from acquiring all of the equipment that we are going to need to infiltrate the Zero Zone in which the target resides (it is another Extraction), and the chances of us getting out alive are slim to none (known defenses are Ringu and Protective Degradation countermeasures, Ottomo Jarheads, and other things), but still we pursue it... Why? because it is the big payout; it may be another year before we even get close, or like I have said earlier... we all die.. we are not asking for the sky here, and we are not playing in a Delta Grade level game as you so eloquently presume... we have no illusions as to the lethality of what we are going up against, and the amount of money being offerred raises a LOT of red flags, chief among them is whether or not we will even survive the run... but sometimes, you just have to roll the dice and hope for the best... otherwise you are just going to be an average runner barely scraping by, and never attaining your dreams... I know which way I am going to go... how about you?

By the Way, I Never said it was a corp that hired us did I? In fact, it isn't...

As for "average" payouts, Your estimates are ludicrous... they may be what you have come to expect (or give out) at your table (and may even be what is used in some published material over the last 20 years), but once you reach a certain level of reputation, you can beging to start naming your own price (within reason, of course, after all, you have a reputation that says your are a highly competent team), and a run per month netting you the cost of your upkeep expenses and some extra for additional purchases, is not an unheard of minimal price negotiation... if you choose to live in the dumps, that is your choice... some 'runners have higher aspirations than living a low lifestyle... Many others here on Dumpshock have said pretty much the same thing... anything less than 5,000-10,000 per runner per run is lowballing, and if/when you can dmeand (or get payed) more then you take it...

Anyway...

Keep the Faith

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Letting punks steal your goods without retaliation is bad for profit. It invites more punks to try to pull the same stunt on you.

You solved a "problem" that doesn't really exist. Your "problem" is player greed, plain and simple. And your "solution" is simply unrealistic for the SR universe. I Provided you with numbers and official sources and all YOU got was "well, my players are greedy f***s". That's not an argument, that's a character flaw.

Better planning next time and the team has less expenses. I see no reason why a GM should reward player incompetence.

Are strawmen arguments the best you can do? This is really getting tiresome. I was not talking about people being PAID to do that kind of stuff, but about those who it WITHOUT PERMISSION. I don't know how I can make this any clearer for you.

Seriously, if you don't have an actual argument, why are you even still babbling?

You DO realize that an active police investigation force, looking into mass murder and alleged ties to organ legging could POSSIBLY interfere with Tamanous activities, do you? I mean that "wall of ignorance" move is cute for a while, but I think you used the cute factor up and are now nearing annoying.

Do you even understand what a Dystopian World is D2F?

From your positions over the last few posts you have made, it does not seem that you do... pretty sad, since you claim that you have been playing since '89...

Oh Well...

Keep the Faith

[Jaid]

Letting punks steal your goods without retaliation is bad for profit. It invites more punks to try to pull the same stunt on you.

You solved a "problem" that doesn't really exist. Your "problem" is player greed, plain and simple. And your "solution" is simply unrealistic for the SR universe. I Provided you with numbers and official sources and all YOU got was "well, my players are greedy f***s". That's not an argument, that's a character flaw.

Better planning next time and the team has less expenses. I see no reason why a GM should reward player incompetence.

Are strawmen arguments the best you can do? This is really getting tiresome. I was not talking about people being PAID to do that kind of stuff, but about those who it WITHOUT PERMISSION. I don't know how I can make this any clearer for you.

Seriously, if you don't have an actual argument, why are you even still babbling?

You DO realize that an active police investigation force, looking into mass murder and alleged ties to organ legging could POSSIBLY interfere with Tamanous activities, do you? I mean that "wall of ignorance" move is cute for a while, but I think you used the cute factor up and are now nearing annoying.

alright, let's address a few points: they aren't punks. odds are good, they are at least as skilled as some of your best teams (unless you're a AAA, and even then they're probably better than the vast majority of your teams). if you send anything less then your best covert ops teams after them, your goons will probably die. and either way, you just wasted even more money, because now your expensive team has to be transported to the location, spend some money and resources finding the team, and then they're risking losing one of their own team (which is not a readily replaceable commodity) to even have a chance to kill the runners (who may get lucky and at least some of them escape). oh, and did i mention that all those big guns can't be used, because unless the runners are stupid enough to be living in your corporate property (and even then only if you have extraterratoriality, which many corps don't), you have no legal authority to send out an army of goons to kill the troops. then, after risking a major PR disaster and the lives of some of your most elite special forces, what do you get from it? did it gain you any money? where's the profit? you think people are going leave you alone just because you killed one group? bullcrap. MCT has that kind of policy, and they still have runs against them. punishing people for getting caught means that they have motivation not to get caught, not that they have motivation to not run against you. also, when you go to hire people, you find out that there's no competent talent out there because some dumbass (go look in a mirror) just blew a few hundred grand murdering everyone competent. now you have to hire talent from out of town, and you have to be more involved or pay more because they're in unfamiliar territory. and then, next week, they'll be taking a run against you anyways, and you'll have to kill them too. what a brilliant plan.

and players being greedy isn't a problem. maybe you hadn't noticed, but these are shadowrunners, AKA people who will shoot you right in the face for money. greedy is not out of character for them. even the ones with 'altruistic' motives need resources to accomplish their goals. if they swipe an extra 500 nuyen worth of loot, that's an extra 500 nuyen towards whatever they want to do. and again, if they're earning 1-3k per run (or even 5k per run) 500 nuyen is a pretty significant increase.

and it's not about player incompetence. one bad roll is all it takes to lose those drones. it might not even be that player's fault; if the street sam triggers an alarm while jumping the fence, and you have to sacrifice two combat drones to cover your escape, that's not player incompetence, especially if they had done the legwork and just got bad information from a contact. there's all kinds of ways bad luck can cost you that kind of gear. or do you just have them tell you what they do, and then they either succeed flawlessly or die based on your personal opinion of what happens when you GM?

and, i'm going to try this again: read this slowly, and maybe you'll get the point this time: what does a fence do if NOT buying stolen goods from criminals? if nobody is allowed to sell stuff to these fences, then who the hell are they buying from? does Santa Claus show up once a year on december 25 to deliver a year's worth of stolen goods or something? if fences exist and are buying stolen goods from criminals, then why the hell is it that if the players (who are playing characters who are criminals) want to sell something to a fence (who, remember, exists in the shadows for the purpose of buying and selling stolen goods ) they are suddenly going to get murdered by a syndicate? do the syndicates have a special "player character sense" that triggers whenever they try to fence some loot?

and finally, who said mass murder? what was that you said about straw man arguments a little earlier? might wanna try taking your own advice. if the runners are bringing hundreds of corpses (or really, more than 1-2 per run) then you have bigger problems than the players wanting to loot. but if they're grabbing a corpse, when the opportunity arises (which is likely not every run) and selling it, then unless they're being a complete dumbass about it and announcing to the world that they're organlegging, it is unlikely anyone will find out. particularly if they choose their targets carefully, and even more particularly if they go out to the Z-zones to do so (which is where the police do not go, and therefore are going to have a hard time investigating)

[Mäx]

Don't have it as a pdf, so I'd have to go through the paperback version. I'll post a quote when I am back in germany.

Maybe you should also sheck what it says about payment in page 21.
As it says that pay should be scaled to difficulty of the job, so if its a "street level" campaing and most dangerous think runners face are gangers and overweight security guards they probaply shouldn't earn 10-20k (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) . But if its what most here consider standart camppaing with the more dangerous corp sec opposition the pay scale should fit the game style, otherwise runner wont be able to afford hospital bills and ammo, let alone get ugrades.

[D2F]

*accidental double post*