Ammunition Calibers, caliber of bullets in SR4? Options

[D2F]

The aspect that both examples work differently?

That is not conclusive evidence. The hypothesis that requires the least amount of additional assumptions is that "exotic ammunition" refers to anything with its own category. According to occam's razor, that is preferrably to yours.

Nope, that would be you logic. Color-coded ammo would be listed seperatly, so no mods.

By my logic weapons which shoot color-coded munition could still be modded, because they still work the same way firearms have done ever since Dreyse built the first needle guns. That's about as Occamish as it gets

You completely missed the point of my analogy. Your logic is based on what the specific excemple is not instead of what it is. Hence my analogy.

[Sengir]

That is not conclusive evidence.

Sure, both of us are making assumptions here. Your assumption is that "exotic ammunition" means "everything that requires its own entry in the table", mine is "everything that does not work like a normal round". Neither interpretation has conclusive evidence, because there is no definition of the term "exotic ammuniton".

[D2F]

Sure, both of us are making assumptions here. Your assumption is that "exotic ammunition" means "everything that requires its own entry in the table", mine is "everything that does not work like a normal round". Neither interpretation has conclusive evidence, because there is no definition of the term "exotic ammuniton".

True. I still believe mine to be the simpler explanation, though. Be that as it may, however, what it boils down to is: the GM decides. I don't think any amount of arguing between the two of us will change that =)

[Red_Cap]

Which doesn't happen. .50 doesn't have any magical properties. It is a perfectly normal bullet travelling at normal rifle bullet velocities. It is just quite large, so it makes bigger holes and penetrates deeper.

Getting winged by a .50 is no more traumatic than getting winged by a .308.

Even in the army, people would tell all sorts of stupid .50 myths. We're talking people who on a regular basis see .50 shot at thin plywood targets and just make 12.7 mm holes in it, and still claim that a near miss can rip your skin off. The cognitive dissonance is amazing.

Au contraire! I'm in the Army and I've fired M2s at people doing stupid things in a desert country that will remain nameless. Wing a guy on the bicep with a bullet that big, and his entire arm will come off.

[Smokeskin]

Au contraire! I'm in the Army and I've fired M2s at people doing stupid things in a desert country that will remain nameless. Wing a guy on the bicep with a bullet that big, and his entire arm will come off.

Either we have different interpretations of the what it means to wing someone in the arm, or you're describing the effects of a direct hit to the arm. I'm actually quite curious how you can tell the difference between the bullet just going through the biceps or it hitting the bone, without having hi-speed footage of it.

To make my position clearer, a .50 hit can take off an arm, but it can also very easily not do so. A grazing hit won't do much more than one from a lower calibre round. A hit to the bicep from the side, that doesn't go through the bone or central part of the arm, I'd think it is extremely unlikely that would take off the entire arm.

[Red_Cap]

It's also off-topic, now that I think about it. If you prefer, we can continue this discussion via PM. Personally, I'd rather drop it because it's not worth an argument. Suffice to say, a hit from .50BMG is going to leave one Hell of a mark.

[Ed_209a]

Regarding Calibers:

If I were to put modern calibers in SR4 categories, it would be as follows:

Holdouts: .22 to 9mm (in extremely short barrels)
Light Pistols: 9mm to compact .40 S&W
Heavy pistols: Full-size .40 to .357 magnum
Super Heavy: anything above .357
Shotguns: 12ga
SMG: Most will be 9mm, .45ACP or .40cal, a few in other calibers, notably PDWs
Assault Rifles: 5.56NATO, 7.62 WP (AK47), but also any of the new 6.XXmm wonderguns
Hunting Rifles: 7.62mm (.308) is a decent gaming approximation, but there are hundreds of calibers in use for hunting. Many more than are used in the military/security fields SR focuses on.
Sniper Rifles: Given the SR4 stats, I think the .338 Lapua Magnum is a good model. Perhaps .300 Win Mag.


Regarding Bullet types:

I believe cased ammo will be around for a long, long time. Sure, top end, SOTA weapons might be caseless, but there are a LOT of marketing niches in the bottom end. For example, I cannot imagine the AK97 using anything but conventional cased ammo, (and very likely still firing 7.62x39mm, even in 2070)

Caseless ammo requires a more complex firearm, which usually means heavier and more expensive. It's only advantages are lighter ammo and a higher maximum rate of fire (which small arms would rarely need). Cased ammo is cheap, proven, and generally good enough.

[Medicineman]

....

Caseless ammo requires a more complex firearm, which usually means heavier and more expensive. It's only advantages are lighter ammo and a higher maximum rate of fire (which small arms would rarely need). Cased ammo is cheap, proven, and generally good enough.

Not in SR4
Its the same Price for the Gun and the same Price for the Ammo

with the same Dance
Medicineman

[KarmaInferno]

Also note that a diameter isn't all there is to the round. .300 and .308 may seem like different diameters, but they're really the same - sometimes you measure the bullet, sometimes the top of the barrel grooves, sometimes the bottom, but even then other dimensions can vary so the calibers aren't compatible. .308 and 7.62 NATO is as good as the same round, but 7.62mm NATO won't fit an AK-47 witch also has 7.62mm diameter, since it fires 39mm casings, not 51mm like the NATO round.

Yeah, I recall a story about an old handgun, the owner dropping a current-manufacture round into the chamber. The ammo was LABELED the same caliber as the pistol, but clearly the method of measuring was different since the whole cartridge immediately slid right out the muzzle of the barrel, case and all.



-np

[Generico]

Yeah, I recall a story about an old handgun, the owner dropping a current-manufacture round into the chamber. The ammo was LABELED the same caliber as the pistol, but clearly the method of measuring was different since the whole cartridge immediately slid right out the muzzle of the barrel, case and all.

That can happen with modern guns and modern ammo.
Some cartridges measure lands, others measure groves.
With deep enough rifling that can cause a round to fall through the barrel. (or jam horribly)

[kzt]

With deep enough rifling that can cause a round to fall through the barrel. (or jam horribly)

And then the next shot is extremely exciting.

[Guntherfuzz8]

Regarding Calibers:

If I were to put modern calibers in SR4 categories, it would be as follows:

Holdouts: .22 to 9mm (in extremely short barrels)
Light Pistols: 9mm to compact .40 S&W
Heavy pistols: Full-size .40 to .357 magnum
Super Heavy: anything above .357
Shotguns: 12ga
SMG: Most will be 9mm, .45ACP or .40cal, a few in other calibers, notably PDWs
Assault Rifles: 5.56NATO, 7.62 WP (AK47), but also any of the new 6.XXmm wonderguns
Hunting Rifles: 7.62mm (.308) is a decent gaming approximation, but there are hundreds of calibers in use for hunting. Many more than are used in the military/security fields SR focuses on.
Sniper Rifles: Given the SR4 stats, I think the .338 Lapua Magnum is a good model. Perhaps .300 Win Mag.

Nice. Never considered the implications of a super heavy category for pistols.

[Warlordtheft]

Just to add my two cents:

Hold-Out - .22 to .32 ACP
Light Pistols and machine pistols: 9mm to 45 acp (including 10mm, .38 special, 9mm Makerov (sp?), 7.62 tokerov) .
Medium - not used in SR
Large - Any magnum round .357 and .44 are the most common (note some revolverscould shoot both magnum rounds and light pistol ammo).

Shotguns - 12 guage or 20 guage.

Submachine Guns - 5.56mm or short 7.62X39 rounds.

Assualt Rifles - 5.56mm sized rounds to 6.8 mm maybe even 7mm

Hunting Rifles - .30-06/.30-30/.308, some elephant guns also available (458 Weatherby magnum)

Sniper Rifles - 7.62mm, with some larger calibers (.50 Cal)

LMG: 5.56mm Nato to7mm
MMG: 7.62mm Nato, 8mm mauser, and others
HMG: .50 cal, 12.7 dsk, 14.whaatever

Assault cannon: 20mm antitank rifle
Taser:Taser

That being said the specific differences between some of the calibers (9mm vs .45 acp vs 10mm for example) would be minimal and inconsiequential in terms of game mechanics inSR. While others might cause more damage.

[kzt]

That being said the specific differences between some of the calibers (9mm vs .45 acp vs 10mm for example) would be minimal and inconsiequential in terms of game mechanics inSR. While others might cause more damage.

Yup. SR makes way to much about trivial differences in guns, and overates pistols, making up for that by underrating rifles and shotguns. All typical service pistols (or smaller) suck at stopping committed people. It doesn't matter if it's a .38 special, 9mm, .40 S&W, .357 SIG, .45 ACP, they all suck compared to a long arm. Service pistols don't suck as much as .25, but they still suck. The kind of hand cannons people use for hunting dangerous game suck a lot less then regular service pistols at stopping committed attackers, if you hit, but very few people can effectively handle them in a regular gunfight. And the hand cannons still suck at stopping grizzlies compared to a .375 H&H magnum rifle or a 12 gauge shotgun.

[Warlordtheft]

To make my position clearer, a .50 hit can take off an arm, but it can also very easily not do so. A grazing hit won't do much more than one from a lower calibre round. A hit to the bicep from the side, that doesn't go through the bone or central part of the arm, I'd think it is extremely unlikely that would take off the entire arm.

This has more to do with the user.....considering that crows (a remote turret weapon system accepts the M2--as I recall), he may have footage of it. OPSEC will certainly keep him from sharing it.

[Warlordtheft]

double post

[Wounded Ronin]

Shadowrun has studiously avoided calibers for firearms.

IMO, because of the dates in which SR 1 were written, they should have fessed up long ago that there is a disproportionate amount of caseless and 10mm ammunition in terms of the concepts behind the guns.

[Wounded Ronin]

Yup. SR makes way to much about trivial differences in guns, and overates pistols, making up for that by underrating rifles and shotguns. All typical service pistols (or smaller) suck at stopping committed people. It doesn't matter if it's a .38 special, 9mm, .40 S&W, .357 SIG, .45 ACP, they all suck compared to a long arm. Service pistols don't suck as much as .25, but they still suck. The kind of hand cannons people use for hunting dangerous game suck a lot less then regular service pistols at stopping committed attackers, if you hit, but very few people can effectively handle them in a regular gunfight. And the hand cannons still suck at stopping grizzlies compared to a .375 H&H magnum rifle or a 12 gauge shotgun.

And yet there's a noticeable difference between 9mm and .45 ACP, just from looking at the back and forth politics of those two cartridges going back to the 80s.

[Wounded Ronin]

Au contraire! I'm in the Army and I've fired M2s at people doing stupid things in a desert country that will remain nameless. Wing a guy on the bicep with a bullet that big, and his entire arm will come off.

In a role playing game, should a severed arm be considered an incapacitating injury?

[kzt]

In a role playing game, should a severed arm be considered an incapacitating injury?

"It's just a flesh wound!"

[Ed_209a]

And yet there's a noticeable difference between 9mm and .45 ACP, just from looking at the back and forth politics of those two cartridges going back to the 80s.

That argument is like Porsche and Ferrarri fans arguing top speed while a jet fighter (rifles) streaks by overhead.

Truth of the matter is, the two calibers are close enough in performance that training makes a much larger difference in tactical effectiveness. I would much rather defend myself with a cheap 9mm that I have fired thousands of rounds through, then a big-name custom .45 that I have only fired 2 boxes of ammo.

[Sengir]

"It's just a flesh wound!"

Wrong game. This is Shadowrun, not Corporation (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Wounded Ronin]

That argument is like Porsche and Ferrarri fans arguing top speed while a jet fighter (rifles) streaks by overhead.

Truth of the matter is, the two calibers are close enough in performance that training makes a much larger difference in tactical effectiveness. I would much rather defend myself with a cheap 9mm that I have fired thousands of rounds through, then a big-name custom .45 that I have only fired 2 boxes of ammo.

But all those police departments and branches of the military wouldn't have switched to 9mm and then back to .45 ACP if it were like Porsche vs. Ferrarri. The fact that there was this flip flop to one because of the double stack mags and then back to the other because of failures to incapacitate making the double stacks not worth it makes it seem to me it's more like an argument about a Hyundai Accent versus a Ford Mustang, while a prop plane (5.56 stopping power horror stories from the Vietnam War and the Battle of Mogidishu) buzzes by a bit faster over head.

[kzt]

Wrong game. This is Shadowrun, not Corporation (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

No, Monty Python.

[kzt]

But all those police departments and branches of the military wouldn't have switched to 9mm and then back to .45 ACP if it were like Porsche vs. Ferrarri. The fact that there was this flip flop to one because of the double stack mags and then back to the other because of failures to incapacitate making the double stacks not worth it makes it seem to me it's more like an argument about a Hyundai Accent versus a Ford Mustang, while a prop plane (5.56 stopping power horror stories from the Vietnam War and the Battle of Mogidishu) buzzes by a bit faster over head.

Actually it's hard to get good data on what is actually used by police forces in the US at an aggregate level. In general it's believed that popular police pistol is the Glock 22/23. Which is .40 S&W. What I've seen suggests that there a lot of dept that issue 9mm, a lot that issue .40, a smaller number that issue .357 SIG and a smaller number that issue .45.

In general, shot placement is what determines how effective the bullet is. Pistol bullets have very limited ability to damage a person or animal. If you don't actually hit something important the only way the opponent is going to stop is if he decides to stop. Which happens, this whole being shot deal wasn't part of his plans, but you can't depend on that. A good hit with a .380 beats a peripheral hit with a .45 every day. And what little decent gunfight data shows that 9mm PB to .45 ACP are about equally effective (or ineffective) in stopping committed aggressors when used with quality police ammo.

But the key thing is that all pistols suck. You use a pistol because it's handy when you are attacked without warning, or because you only have one hand free, not because it's almost as good as a rifle or shotgun. If your rules don't have rifles and shotguns being hugely more effective there is no relationship to reality and there is no reason to try to talk about caliber.