Can anyone enlighten me to what the caliber of bullets are for the various weapons in SR4? Off the top of my head I'd guesstimate as follows...

Hold-Out - .22
Small - .38
Medium - 9mm
Large - .357/.40/.45/.50

Shotguns - 12 guage

Submachine Guns - 9mm

Assualt Rifles - 5.56mm or 7.62mm

Hunting Rifles - .30-06/.30-30/.308

Sniper Rifles - 5.56mm or 7.62mm

Does that sound about right or is there a list in one of the books somewhere?

Shadowrun has studiously avoided calibers for firearms.

That would explain why I couldn't find a mention of them. Which sucks since we are using the SR4 rules for a modern style game.

Makes you feel any better, your calibers seem fine. It was basically done for simplicity (and because not all freelancers are gun experts).

Don't bother trying. There isn't any particular relationship with SR firearms and real guns that makes any sense. In particular, SR handguns are just as effective as SR rifles, while in the real world there is a huge gaping chasm between them, and between a rifle and a heavy machine gun. Plus the whole idea of handgun bullets being as effective as rifle bullets in penetrating cover is absurd.

I would say that more than likely, Corps like Ares who are big on weapons manufacturing probably have their own proprietary calibers as well.

In my game we apply calibers just for flavor. It's assumed the Ruger Super-Warhawk is a .50cal, along with the Barrett sniper.

Actually, Barrett and other Long Range Sniper manufacturers have recently switched to a .400ish caliber, like the .416 or .408 round.

Well there you go. It could be anything in the future, it's just for flavor, and so we can compare them to modern day contemporaries. Makes it easier to imagine.

I have seen some elaborate conversion schemes over the years, which I'm sure you could find with a Google search, but if you ask me that way lies only madness...

not to mention that all/most modern cartridges would go out the window when you switch to caseless ammo.

I'd imagine they would simply be skinnier?

Or shorter with the charge wrapped around the bullet ala the G11

The other trend in modern firearms is to make EVERYTHING armor piercing. See also PDWs

Kaliber in SR was never a good Idea because of endless Discussions, but If you insist....
1) there are no Medium Pistols in SR.
2) the Realworld Equivalents of old SR3 Light &Auto-Pistols were 9MM (Beretta,Black Scorpion,Seco LD)
3)There are at least two different Shotguns with the same Damage Code
4) there was this Rayguncharlie Homepage with lots of old SR3 Weapons but all were Houserules ,
you might Google for it

HokaHey
Medicineman

You could start here
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cartridges_by_caliber

There are A LOT more than what you have listed, if you include less common rounds.

Submachineguns: .45 is also somewhat common

Assault rifles: You list the current NATO rounds. The Soviet rounds 7.62x39, which doesn't fit the 7.62 NATO chamber, and the 5.45mm are also very common. The trend of shorter barrels have proved problematic with 5.56 rounds, which don't have sufficient stopping power at the lower muzzle velocities, and the 7.62 round could be smaller. The 6.5mm Grendel or something along those lines could be next major assault rifle round, if anyone ever decides to heck with the implementation costs. With significant improvements in gunpowder performance or caseless rounds, it is highly probable you'd see new common calibers emerge.

Sniper Rifles: 5.56 isn't a sniper rifle round. The sniper rifle ranges listed in SR isn't at all possible with 7.62 rounds. Calibers like .338, .408, .416, and .50 are needed for that.

Also note that a diameter isn't all there is to the round. .300 and .308 may seem like different diameters, but they're really the same - sometimes you measure the bullet, sometimes the top of the barrel grooves, sometimes the bottom, but even then other dimensions can vary so the calibers aren't compatible. .308 and 7.62 NATO is as good as the same round, but 7.62mm NATO won't fit an AK-47 witch also has 7.62mm diameter, since it fires 39mm casings, not 51mm like the NATO round.

See
thats why there is no Caliber in SR
(3 different Calibers for Assaultrifles with the same Damage code)

Hough!
Medicineman

Don't try to apply any real world knowledge to Shadowrun weapons. You're just going to hurt your brain (and possibly the rest of your head, when you bang it on the desk).

That doesn't mean you can't add technical details for flavor.

If it is simply to add flavor, it would make sense to assign a specific caliber to each SR weapon category, considering that rules-wise, you are able to use munition of a particular type of weapon with any and every other weapon of the same type.

As a pure suggestion, I would propose the following values, depending on weapon type and function:

Hold-out: .22
Light Pistol: .38
Heavy Pistol: 9mm
Super-Heavy Pistol (i.e. Ruger Superwarhawk): .367

Machine Pistol: 8mm
Submachine Gun: .45
Assault Rifle: 5.56mm NATO

Shotgun: 12 gauge
Sporting Rifle: .308
Sniper Rifle: .408

Light Machine Gun: 5.45mm (not to use the same caliber as for the assualt rifle, based on the 5.45x39mm RPK caliber)
Medium Machine Gun: 7.62mm NATO
Heavy Machine Gun: .50

Grenade Launchers: 25mm Grenades

The rest, like assault cannons, rocket launchers, mortars and gauss rifles, should be self-explanatory and not in need of a caliber assignment.

For flavour sure, just don't try to come up with any "hard" rules for it. And if ammo types might become relevant (like two weapons using the same round), make an arrangement with the GM before the dakka starts

@D2F: From a real life perspective, I'd suggest using the same round for assault rifles and light MGs...armies like easy logistics.

Light Pistol: .38
Heavy Pistol: 9mm
And where are the 10MM or 11 MM Handguns,Cal 44 or .50AE ?
What about Dirty Harrys Magnum 44 Revolver ?

Machine Pistol: 8mm
Submachine Gun: .45

Where are the 9MM Autopistols (Black Scorpion)and 9MM MPs (Heckler & Koch f.E.)

Medium Machine Gun: 7.62mm NATO
and what about an Assault Rifle with 7.62 MM Ammo ? the same damage Code as an
MMG ?

With a little surprised Dance
Medicineman

I completely agree. As I stated, however, the intention was not to give the most realistic comparison, but the most suitable in regard to SR rules.

As it is, you cannot use assault rifle ammunition with light machine guns in SR, or vice versa. It is for that reason, I opted for a different, yet similar calibre in my proposal, in this case based on the 5.45x39mm round of the soviet RPK-74 light machine gun.

Obviously it is only a suggestion. What you opt to use, if any, is up to you.

Unless the GM approves

Not a valid argument. If the GM approves, you can change the fire mode on an assault cannon to FA as well, not to mention fit a drum feed to it...

Each weapon has 6 mod slots, large fire selection change takes up 4 slots, drum feed 2. Tripod recommended

And the posiblity to share ammo types is explicitly mentioned in the BBB (Ammunition section in the Gear chapter).

Since the Assault Cannon qualifies for "exotic ammunition" (not being able to use standard ammunition or other regular ammunition types), the firing selection change would be an illegal modification (illegal in the context of rules, not in-game jurisdiction).



Since an assault cannon neither qualifies as a SMG, nor as an assault rifle, this modification would also be illegal.



It does specifically state that, yes. Nevertheless, it is not a binding rule and as such not valid across the board. In my selection of calibers I was aiming to provide a solution for everyone, including the groups whose GM does not want to allow the cross-trading of amunition for certain weapons types (even though it would be more realistic to do so).

That said, I think we are playing with semantics at this point. Bottom line: If anyone wants to use specific calibers for specific weapon types, they can either use my suggested ones, or whatever else they deem fitting. For all we know, heavy pistols in SR could be using 5mm bullets...

As a gun fanatic and soldier, I feel distinctly qualified to help produce just such a list of caliber by weapon. That's the sort of inane thing I would do just to take up time in the airport next Saturday. Check the Hidden Grid soon for details if you're interested.

For all we know, heavy pistols in SR could be using 5mm bullets...
Thats why I'm opting to not use Caliber at All but Categories

HojkaHey
Medicineman

You mean just like the standard SR rules? =P

Yes
In my Shadowrun Universe the Weapons are "equalized"
every Holdout has .22 MM
every Light Pistol is 9MM
every Heavy Pistol is 10 MM
(there are exemptions like the Ruger Super Warhawk or the Desert Eagle,but only a few)
etc, so Ammunition between the same Categories are exchangeable
It makes Life (as Player and as GM )easier

with an easier Dance
Medicineman

What caliber is the Ares Viper Sliver Gun?

*runs, ducks and hides*

The way I'm reading those (ambiguous) examples is "you can only modify guns that chamber a round in some way", so a Panther could be modified to full auto...with a single shot, you're obviously right about the drum ^^


Agreed. And remember that a) it's just fluff and b) the rounds will be completely different from what we have today, no matter what the caliber is.

The passage does say nothing about rounds feeding into a chamber. It mentions "exotic ammunition" Since "Assault Cannon Rounds" have their very own entry in the Ammunition chart, they therefore qualify as "exotic ammunition". Your personal interpretation has no impact on that rule.

Now, whether you choose to ignore that rule in your group, and treat assault cannon rounds as regular ammunition is completely up to you, but you cannot use house rules in a rules discussion.

That said, I'll pull a full stop here on this topic. We can open a new thread, if further discussion is nescessary or requested, but we are about to derail this thread. I would like to avoid that.

I am not sure I would agree with that. Some rounds have been stable for a very long time--along with weapon systems.

I don't see 9MM, .45 or even .50BMG going extinct any time soon. Even the "new" assault rifle rounds (NATO 5.56) have been around for 50ish years now.

Barring caseless ammo, or some significant change in gun powder, the common work-day round will still be the common work-day rounds.

And debates will circle the internet endlessly if 10MM would be enough to stop a hopped up troll within 30 feet of you, or if you really need to go with something like .454 or .50 AE . (And some helpful poster will point out that even a troll can be stopped with a .22 if you shoot him in the eye.)

Heavy Flechette Caliber *Throws one after YuriPup*

HeyaHeyaHeij
Medicineman

Ah, everyone's favorite semi-automatic nailgun.

Caliber: NIN

Damnit, D2F, now I feel like breaking out Downward Spiral.

Or Downward Spiral Live (for free)

I prefer "The Perfect Drug.

But since we are on a SR forum, I need to think about the single most SR-like song of them all: "No Rest for the Wicked" from Cage the Elephant =)

And to not completely sidetrack here:

Light Autocannon Caliber: 25mm
Heavy Autocannon Caliber: 35mm

Many weapons offer two versions, for standard loads or for caseless ammunition, though the latter is far more common in the 2070s.

So there has been a significant change in ammunition technology, which should require completely new cartridge forms.


@D2F: It talks about weapons like the Sakura Fubuki (which works like the Metal Storm system) or the Pain Inducer (that runs on batteries). Both lack a conventional chamber or are not even firearms, so there is nothing that can be modded. An assault cannon on the other hand is completely normal firearm, just the ammo is bit larger.

It lists those two, and while point out the right reasons, you fail to draw the proper conclusions:

The reason the pain inducer is using exotic amunition is NOT because it used Batteries.
It is because it does NOT use regular ammo. Battery packs are listed under ammunition as well. So are Assault Cannon Rounds, Gauss Rifle rounds and/or flamer tanks.

Your assumption that is somehow only limited to weapons not using chambered rounds is based on what exactly? A specific aspect of the excemple? It doesn't specifically mention the loading mechanism of the fubuki or the ammunition type of the pain inducer, either. By your logic, we could also assume that all weapons using ammunition that is color coded are using "exotic ammunition".

No, I'll stick with Occam's Razor here and conclude that "exotic ammunition" refers to ammunition specific to a particular weapon type, not shared by others (and yes, pain inducer and laser weapons fall under the category of "energy weapons" or even "coherent energy weapons")

Your hypothesis simply requires to many extra assumptions.

The whole 2 versions thing doesn't really work. You said it yourself--caseless would require completely new cartridge forms. That says nothing about cased ammo. Raygun did a great job talking about it, but lets look at this way.

The brass for a 9MM cartridge is about 60 grains. A 9MM is usually loaded with ~120 grains of gun powder. So about 1/3 of the bullets propellant budget is containment, gas seal and breech strengthening. A caseless round with the same energy budget is going to be about 1/3 smaller aft of the bullet itself--but not have anywhere near the gas sealing or strengthening properties of a cased round.

Then look up Kabooms--that is when the brass of a cased round fails in a gun and blows out into the magazine. Part of gun design is keeping that from happening. Obviously a cased round is not going to need as strong a firewall between the round and the magazine. To me, a gun noob, that would imply a very different looking breech and ammo feed between cased and caseless--I would suspect that a caseless pistol's action would have to operate far more like a rifle's--where the bigger explosions require that the brass get more support from the breech.

The brass for a 9MM cartridge is about 60 grains. A 9MM is usually loaded with ~120 grains of gun powder. So about 1/3 of the bullets propellant budget is containment, gas seal and breech strengthening. A caseless round with the same energy budget is going to be about 1/3 smaller aft of the bullet itself--but not have anywhere near the gas sealing or strengthening properties of a cased round.
well that is now 2010 I don't have any Idea what kind of Primer they'll be using in SR in 2072.
Please don't make the mistake of using Todays technology to explain the SR World.
If RAW says that caseless and cased Weapon exist,than thats the fact,but You're allways free to change it in your Gamegroup

To me, a gun noob, that would imply a very different looking breech and ammo feed between cased and caseless-
Same to me thats why you buy your Gun either for Case or for Caseless Ammo.

HokaHey
Medicineman

I would think that since the majority of bullets in Shadowrun are caseless, calibers would be distinctly different anyway.

For Barrett I'd say they added the .416, not switched to. The .416 may be a lot faster than the old .50 BMG but the venerable .50 still has its uses.

QFT...

Keep the Faith

Yeah. Like, you know, ripping off body parts when you just wing your target.

Which doesn't happen. .50 doesn't have any magical properties. It is a perfectly normal bullet travelling at normal rifle bullet velocities. It is just quite large, so it makes bigger holes and penetrates deeper.

Getting winged by a .50 is no more traumatic than getting winged by a .308.

Even in the army, people would tell all sorts of stupid .50 myths. We're talking people who on a regular basis see .50 shot at thin plywood targets and just make 12.7 mm holes in it, and still claim that a near miss can rip your skin off. The cognitive dissonance is amazing.

The aspect that both examples work differently?



Nope, that would be you logic. Color-coded ammo would be listed seperatly, so no mods.

By my logic weapons which shoot color-coded munition could still be modded, because they still work the same way firearms have done ever since Dreyse built the first needle guns. That's about as Occamish as it gets


@Yuri: Just pointing out that caseless ammo seems to be the de facto standard in the Sixth World. The assumption that each weapon is avaiable for caseless and brass rounds is indeed...interesting. But hey, we are talking about a system where blowing open a door requires like 50kg of explosives