Nuke´em, ...damn insect spirits Options

[Machiavelli]

Recently we ran into a bunch of flesh-form roach-spirits that kicked the shit out of us. Some of us managed to survive but it was a real tight thing to do so. If i hadn´t been able to cast high-force manaballs, we wouldn´t even be able to knock them off their feet (never forget, soldier spirits have the power of magical protection and they didn´t head back even as we killed a lot of them) So i thought about magical solutions to give these little braggers a small surprise the next time they want to overrun us.

Basically i thought about a spell that creates a area-version of the elemental-aura spell to keep them away of close-combat-range. Acc. to the rules i couldn´t find something that prevents such a step, but maybe i oversee something?

What about an area-version of a fire-/acid-/ice-/metal-etc.-ball spell that uses the caster as center of the spell? It could be seen as an instant version of the above spell? What do you mean?

[Ascalaphus]

Slaughter [Insects]? It's a bit specialized, but you can cast it at ground zero and not worry about killing teammates.. Those specialized spells also feature overcast-friendlier drain.

[Machiavelli]

Naaa....5 Karma for such an specific spell is way to much. What if you run into another nasty species that also attacks in packs or mischiefs? I need something like a "last way out" spell that saves your ass when the enemy is already too close. By the way isn´t the slaughter-spell not a mana-spell?

[Generico]

(Element) Wall is a reasonably effective way of keeping enemies at a distance, but the drain is horrible. Comes in plane or dome on a per cast basis to.

I know its not what you are asking for but what you really need is either:

A. Poison gas + gas masks
B. Incendiary grenades + epic fire resistance

If magic can't give you what you need at reasonable drain try mundane methods.

[Machiavelli]

Depends on various options. Elemental Aura has a drain code of (F/2)+3 if i remember correctly. If i add the area-effect-option it raises to (F/2)+5 which is really unpleasant. But i could also make my own version from this spell (can only be cast on myself) and this lowers the drain again back t (F/2)+3 which is a good solution to keep everybody (magic)meters away and if the come in anyway they got damage. So MAGIC wouldn´t be the thing to keep me away from my wished spell, but did i forget something except the GM? Did i miss a rule or does this break game mechanics?

[Nyost Akasuke]

This is why you should be a Toxic Mage. Because even Roach spirits aren't immune to radiation! (how ironic) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/twirl.gif)

On a more serious note, I agree with Generico. [Element] Wall is awesome and probably very helpful. Is the Drain really so bad though? Admittedly I'm no SR veteran, but I just did a couple test rolls of that spell (Force 5, nothing 'extra' to help resist drain) earlier this evening with a newly built character, and rarely came out with greater than 2 boxes of Stun.

Doesn't Immunity to Normal Weapons make it a lot harder to damage a Flesh-Form via Gas and Grenade though?

[Dakka Dakka]

Naaa....5 Karma for such an specific spell is way to much. What if you run into another nasty species that also attacks in packs or mischiefs? I need something like a "last way out" spell that saves your ass when the enemy is already too close. By the way isn´t the slaughter-spell not a mana-spell?

On less, Slay and Slaughter are mana spells. Even the examples of those spells suggest Slaughter Spirit. This is a lot more versatile than Slaughter Bug Spirit. You would have to protect your own spirits though. Mass Dormancy (Stun version of Slaughter) would be an even more drain-friendly option.

[Nitpick]Slaughter [Insects] would have no effect on the Spirits since they aren't real insects. If they inhabited insects it would kinda work. I don't know hough if only the host would be killed or the spirit disrupted as well.[/Nitpick]

Adding an area effect to [Element] Aura wouldn't do much besides increase the drain. The Element only discharges if the target of the spell is attacked with a melee attack.

F/2+5 is bad, also you would get -2 to all other actions for sustaining the spell. 2 or more boxes of stun every casting hurt bad. While moving the wall may be an option, this is not quick and requires an action (a simple one I think).

The quick and dirty way is to have high counterspelling and just drop a Stunball. Oh and suggest to your team mates to grow a pair (increase Willpower). (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Unless your talking about hordes of spirits the single target version may be enough - no chance of collateral damage.

[PBTHHHHT]

Unless your talking about hordes of spirits the single target version may be enough - no chance of collateral damage.

The problem is that he's talking about a horde of them. what's wrong with collateral damage by the way, as long as you survive... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

That said, it may be best to have both a magic plan and a mundane backup plan, just in case your character is not in shape to cast that spell, or because he's out of commission. Course the ultimate screw you plan is something ala aliens. If you're going down, take them with you.

[Ascalaphus]

Slaughter Spirits sounds like an efficient, multi-purpose attack spell. Useful both at range and for clearing your own neighborhood. You can send your own spirits on standby in the metaplanes while you "detonate", then call them back and instruct them to clear the debris..

[Nitpick]Slaughter [Insects] would have no effect on the Spirits since they aren't real insects. If they inhabited insects it would kinda work. I don't know hough if only the host would be killed or the spirit disrupted as well.[/Nitpick]

True I guess. I was thinking from the angle that they're vulnerable to insecticides while inhabiting a human form, so that they might count as both insects and spirits.

Hmm, what about other nasty Slaughter spells? I suddenly have thoughts of feminazi teams with Slaughter Men spells (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif) .

[Karoline]

Hmm, what about other nasty Slaughter spells? I suddenly have thoughts of feminazi teams with Slaughter Men spells (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif) .

I like that idea. Would have to be a fairly long term team though for them to think it worthwhile enough for the mage to research and learn such a spell. I think I'd be more in favor of the S version though, don't recall what it is called.

[Dakka Dakka]

Slaughter Spirits sounds like an efficient, multi-purpose attack spell. Useful both at range and for clearing your own neighborhood. You can send your own spirits on standby in the metaplanes while you "detonate", then call them back and instruct them to clear the debris..

With inhabiting spirits, your own spirits don't even need to go to the metaplanes. Astral plane is enough since the spell only affects one plane, which would most likely be the physical one. Good tactics though

True I guess. I was thinking from the angle that they're vulnerable to insecticides while inhabiting a human form, so that they might count as both insects and spirits.

If it's a hybrid form it is a spirit and a vessel type(Ork, elf, etc). It is never an insect unless the spirit inhabits an actual insect. True Forms are only Spirits I guess and Flesh Forms only vessels.

[kzt]

If you are defending a fixed point against them a flame fougasse will do a pretty good job against anything not immune to being covered in burning napalm for a few minutes.

[Sengir]

Not exactly magic, but I had my GM convert a little toy called the Handflammpatrone to Shadowrun. Basically a throwaway grenade launcher preloaded with an incendiary grenade that either explodes on inpact or after around one second of flight (which givs it a max range of ~90m)

We used the stats for a standard WP grenade from Arsenal, with a modified area of effect:

CODE

point of explosion
|
[Shooter]----------flightpath---------|-------(X)-------------|-------------->
|--5m----|-------30m----|

fire radius

I don't think we even came up with stats for a direct hit, because it's just fired in the general direction of the enemy.

[Dakka Dakka]

If you had a couple of minutes a flamethrower may be an option for point defense, but the capacity of the big one in Arsenal is empty after 6-30 seconds (depending on the number of IPs for shooting). [Element] Wall isn't that great either for point defense. The attackers will only have to resist the damage once then they are through. Ranged weapons aren't even stopped by some types of walls. Interestingly enough, touching a magic metal wall one meter thick will hurt you bigtime by RAW whereas its solidity will be somewhere between glass and hardwood. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/silly.gif)

While this is not an option for inhabiting spirits, materializing ones could just take a short cut through the astral plane.

[Machiavelli]

So i had at least a question that has no proper answer. that´s good too.^^

[djinni]

Recently we ran into a bunch of flesh-form roach-spirits that kicked the shit out of us. Some of us managed to survive but it was a real tight thing to do so. If i hadn´t been able to cast high-force manaballs, we wouldn´t even be able to knock them off their feet (never forget, soldier spirits have the power of magical protection and they didn´t head back even as we killed a lot of them) So i thought about magical solutions to give these little braggers a small surprise the next time they want to overrun us.

Basically i thought about a spell that creates a area-version of the elemental-aura spell to keep them away of close-combat-range. Acc. to the rules i couldn´t find something that prevents such a step, but maybe i oversee something?

What about an area-version of a fire-/acid-/ice-/metal-etc.-ball spell that uses the caster as center of the spell? It could be seen as an instant version of the above spell? What do you mean?

drop your magic approach versus insect spirits.
the only thing you need to counter them is KE IV, that's it.
Splash grenade, Capsule Rounds (DMSO)

[hahnsoo]

Were they Flesh Forms, or Hybrid Forms? Flesh Forms, under RAW, are the good merges that look and act human. Hybrid Forms are corrupted humanoid forms.

You really should consider some KE IV Insecticide rather than investing in spells. All Insect Spirits in all forms (as far as I can tell in SR4A) have Allergy (Insecticides, Severe), unless someone can point me to a page reference that states otherwise that Hybrid/Flesh forms do not have this weakness in SR4 specifically (as opposed to previous editions).

Let's look at the stats, shall we?

KE IV (Arsenal, p 84)
Vector: Contact (Only skin contact is needed. Gas Grenades, anyone?)
Speed: Immediate (Applied at the end of the Combat Turn the insect is exposed)
Penetration: 0 (This is the value that is removed from the Rating of Chemical Protection against it)
Power: 8
Effect: Acid Damage, Berserk
Cost: 10 nuyen. That's right. TEN nuyen for a dose. And Availability 8.

The Insect Spirit will have to resist against 8 Power with just their Body. This isn't a Damage Resistance test, either. It's a Toxin Resistance Test, so Roach spirits don't get their +2 dice to Damage Resistance (which probably is against physical threats anyway).

The Acid Damage means that it will continuously eat through for a number of turns equal to the Rating (SR4A, p 163). The initial DV of this toxin counts as its Acid Damage Rating. It's a bit vague on whether this means it continues to damage every Turn or the "eat through" is a different effect. Still, you have a fairly damaging attack, resisted only by Body.

The Allergy also means that the Roach spirits get a -4 Dice Pool modifier to all tests. If you coat a weapon with it or use bullets with an insecticide component, the Damage Value is increased by 4. Your GM would have to determine whether or not this +4 DV applies to the power of the Toxin. It also bypasses Immunity to Normal Weapons (SR4A, p 295)

[Platinum]

I would use your karma to bond a weapon focus. If you can, somehow I would pay extra for something that reduces bonding costs.

[Godwyn]

This is why you should be a Toxic Mage. Because even Roach spirits aren't immune to radiation! (how ironic) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/twirl.gif)

On a more serious note, I agree with Generico. [Element] Wall is awesome and probably very helpful. Is the Drain really so bad though? Admittedly I'm no SR veteran, but I just did a couple test rolls of that spell (Force 5, nothing 'extra' to help resist drain) earlier this evening with a newly built character, and rarely came out with greater than 2 boxes of Stun.

Doesn't Immunity to Normal Weapons make it a lot harder to damage a Flesh-Form via Gas and Grenade though?

Despite urban myth to the contrary, roaches are not actually immune to radiation.

[Nyost Akasuke]

Very true
Still, when I first read Street Magic thats what first came to my mind in regards to Roach spirits. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Karoline]

Despite urban myth to the contrary, roaches are not actually immune to radiation.

No way, I totally heard it from people who know people who do stuff and they totally know what they're talking about. I mean I've seen it in TV shows and everything (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Actually Mythbusters tested this with roaches and various other insects. As I recall the roach basically did the worse of the insects they tested. Been a while since I saw the episode though.

[Machiavelli]

Ok, despite being maybe not the perfect way to defend against masses of insect spirits (or anything else that attacks in big amounts) is it possible to give the elemental-aura spell an area effect? Or had this already been discussed in an errata, forum-topic etc. i don´t know anything about? ^^

Oh, and it was a mixture of flesh-form, real-form and a lot hybrid-forms. But they were all very nasty so i need something that simply kills enemys, without any specialisation.

[Dakka Dakka]

Rule-wise this could even work, but the description of the normal spell doesn't suit this kind of behavior IMHO. The original spell only damages people if they attack the target with a melee attack or the target attacks them in the same manner. So how could the spell know when to retaliate against a ranged attack but not burn/freeze/electrocute everything in between? On a more practical note, most ranged attacks needn't be carried out from 6m or less(Force 6), so most attackers wouldn't be affected anyway or the caster would have to remove dice from his pool to enlarge the area. The drain for the spell is also considerable, it should be F/2+5.

[Machiavelli]

Right, the desciption is very vague regarding it´s basic intention. In my side of view, the damage that is done causes of the closeness to the caster of the spell. So no matter who is attacking, you are in the reach of the magic and therefore get damaged. If you then change the spell to a radius to (magic)-meters, this would imply that you get damaged as long as you are in this specific range. Would you agree with that?

[Dakka Dakka]

In my side of view, the damage that is done causes of the closeness to the caster of the spell. So no matter who is attacking, you are in the reach of the magic and therefore get damaged. If you then change the spell to a radius to (magic)-meters, this would imply that you get damaged as long as you are in this specific range. Would you agree with that?

This is not true, though it may have been the intention.

This fiery aura does not affect the subject, but increase the DV of any
melee attacks by the caster’s hits.
[...]
Any successful physical melee attack against the subject also means that the attacker must resist similar damage from the aura.

You could stand next to the target of the spell and not get burned/zapped/whatever, missing the target of the spell or a successful defense by the target doesn't cause damage either. By RAW you could even shake the target's hand and not be harmed since it is not an attack. If this spell were to be converted into an area version, the target would also need to be wary what he is standing on. If the spell is effective enough, it should also burn through the floor he is standing on, but the description of the original spell suggests otherwise.

You could however make a new spell with all the advantages and drawbacks of walking around in a sphere of fire - yes a sphere so this would even burn anything in the floor above and below the target.