Recently we ran into a bunch of flesh-form roach-spirits that kicked the shit out of us. Some of us managed to survive but it was a real tight thing to do so. If i hadn´t been able to cast high-force manaballs, we wouldn´t even be able to knock them off their feet (never forget, soldier spirits have the power of magical protection and they didn´t head back even as we killed a lot of them) So i thought about magical solutions to give these little braggers a small surprise the next time they want to overrun us.

Basically i thought about a spell that creates a area-version of the elemental-aura spell to keep them away of close-combat-range. Acc. to the rules i couldn´t find something that prevents such a step, but maybe i oversee something?

What about an area-version of a fire-/acid-/ice-/metal-etc.-ball spell that uses the caster as center of the spell? It could be seen as an instant version of the above spell? What do you mean?

Slaughter [Insects]? It's a bit specialized, but you can cast it at ground zero and not worry about killing teammates.. Those specialized spells also feature overcast-friendlier drain.

Naaa....5 Karma for such an specific spell is way to much. What if you run into another nasty species that also attacks in packs or mischiefs? I need something like a "last way out" spell that saves your ass when the enemy is already too close. By the way isn´t the slaughter-spell not a mana-spell?

(Element) Wall is a reasonably effective way of keeping enemies at a distance, but the drain is horrible. Comes in plane or dome on a per cast basis to.

I know its not what you are asking for but what you really need is either:

A. Poison gas + gas masks
B. Incendiary grenades + epic fire resistance

If magic can't give you what you need at reasonable drain try mundane methods.

Depends on various options. Elemental Aura has a drain code of (F/2)+3 if i remember correctly. If i add the area-effect-option it raises to (F/2)+5 which is really unpleasant. But i could also make my own version from this spell (can only be cast on myself) and this lowers the drain again back t (F/2)+3 which is a good solution to keep everybody (magic)meters away and if the come in anyway they got damage. So MAGIC wouldn´t be the thing to keep me away from my wished spell, but did i forget something except the GM? Did i miss a rule or does this break game mechanics?

This is why you should be a Toxic Mage. Because even Roach spirits aren't immune to radiation! (how ironic)

On a more serious note, I agree with Generico. [Element] Wall is awesome and probably very helpful. Is the Drain really so bad though? Admittedly I'm no SR veteran, but I just did a couple test rolls of that spell (Force 5, nothing 'extra' to help resist drain) earlier this evening with a newly built character, and rarely came out with greater than 2 boxes of Stun.

Doesn't Immunity to Normal Weapons make it a lot harder to damage a Flesh-Form via Gas and Grenade though?

On less, Slay and Slaughter are mana spells. Even the examples of those spells suggest Slaughter Spirit. This is a lot more versatile than Slaughter Bug Spirit. You would have to protect your own spirits though. Mass Dormancy (Stun version of Slaughter) would be an even more drain-friendly option.

[Nitpick]Slaughter [Insects] would have no effect on the Spirits since they aren't real insects. If they inhabited insects it would kinda work. I don't know hough if only the host would be killed or the spirit disrupted as well.[/Nitpick]

Adding an area effect to [Element] Aura wouldn't do much besides increase the drain. The Element only discharges if the target of the spell is attacked with a melee attack.

F/2+5 is bad, also you would get -2 to all other actions for sustaining the spell. 2 or more boxes of stun every casting hurt bad. While moving the wall may be an option, this is not quick and requires an action (a simple one I think).

The quick and dirty way is to have high counterspelling and just drop a Stunball. Oh and suggest to your team mates to grow a pair (increase Willpower).

Unless your talking about hordes of spirits the single target version may be enough - no chance of collateral damage.

The problem is that he's talking about a horde of them. what's wrong with collateral damage by the way, as long as you survive...

That said, it may be best to have both a magic plan and a mundane backup plan, just in case your character is not in shape to cast that spell, or because he's out of commission. Course the ultimate screw you plan is something ala aliens. If you're going down, take them with you.

Slaughter Spirits sounds like an efficient, multi-purpose attack spell. Useful both at range and for clearing your own neighborhood. You can send your own spirits on standby in the metaplanes while you "detonate", then call them back and instruct them to clear the debris..



True I guess. I was thinking from the angle that they're vulnerable to insecticides while inhabiting a human form, so that they might count as both insects and spirits.

Hmm, what about other nasty Slaughter spells? I suddenly have thoughts of feminazi teams with Slaughter Men spells .

I like that idea. Would have to be a fairly long term team though for them to think it worthwhile enough for the mage to research and learn such a spell. I think I'd be more in favor of the S version though, don't recall what it is called.

With inhabiting spirits, your own spirits don't even need to go to the metaplanes. Astral plane is enough since the spell only affects one plane, which would most likely be the physical one. Good tactics though

If it's a hybrid form it is a spirit and a vessel type(Ork, elf, etc). It is never an insect unless the spirit inhabits an actual insect. True Forms are only Spirits I guess and Flesh Forms only vessels.

If you are defending a fixed point against them a flame fougasse will do a pretty good job against anything not immune to being covered in burning napalm for a few minutes.

Not exactly magic, but I had my GM convert a little toy called the Handflammpatrone to Shadowrun. Basically a throwaway grenade launcher preloaded with an incendiary grenade that either explodes on inpact or after around one second of flight (which givs it a max range of ~90m)

We used the stats for a standard WP grenade from Arsenal, with a modified area of effect:

I don't think we even came up with stats for a direct hit, because it's just fired in the general direction of the enemy.

If you had a couple of minutes a flamethrower may be an option for point defense, but the capacity of the big one in Arsenal is empty after 6-30 seconds (depending on the number of IPs for shooting). [Element] Wall isn't that great either for point defense. The attackers will only have to resist the damage once then they are through. Ranged weapons aren't even stopped by some types of walls. Interestingly enough, touching a magic metal wall one meter thick will hurt you bigtime by RAW whereas its solidity will be somewhere between glass and hardwood.

While this is not an option for inhabiting spirits, materializing ones could just take a short cut through the astral plane.

So i had at least a question that has no proper answer. that´s good too.^^

drop your magic approach versus insect spirits.
the only thing you need to counter them is KE IV, that's it.
Splash grenade, Capsule Rounds (DMSO)

Were they Flesh Forms, or Hybrid Forms? Flesh Forms, under RAW, are the good merges that look and act human. Hybrid Forms are corrupted humanoid forms.

You really should consider some KE IV Insecticide rather than investing in spells. All Insect Spirits in all forms (as far as I can tell in SR4A) have Allergy (Insecticides, Severe), unless someone can point me to a page reference that states otherwise that Hybrid/Flesh forms do not have this weakness in SR4 specifically (as opposed to previous editions).

Let's look at the stats, shall we?

KE IV (Arsenal, p 84)
Vector: Contact (Only skin contact is needed. Gas Grenades, anyone?)
Speed: Immediate (Applied at the end of the Combat Turn the insect is exposed)
Penetration: 0 (This is the value that is removed from the Rating of Chemical Protection against it)
Power: 8
Effect: Acid Damage, Berserk
Cost: 10 nuyen. That's right. TEN nuyen for a dose. And Availability 8.

The Insect Spirit will have to resist against 8 Power with just their Body. This isn't a Damage Resistance test, either. It's a Toxin Resistance Test, so Roach spirits don't get their +2 dice to Damage Resistance (which probably is against physical threats anyway).

The Acid Damage means that it will continuously eat through for a number of turns equal to the Rating (SR4A, p 163). The initial DV of this toxin counts as its Acid Damage Rating. It's a bit vague on whether this means it continues to damage every Turn or the "eat through" is a different effect. Still, you have a fairly damaging attack, resisted only by Body.

The Allergy also means that the Roach spirits get a -4 Dice Pool modifier to all tests. If you coat a weapon with it or use bullets with an insecticide component, the Damage Value is increased by 4. Your GM would have to determine whether or not this +4 DV applies to the power of the Toxin. It also bypasses Immunity to Normal Weapons (SR4A, p 295)

I would use your karma to bond a weapon focus. If you can, somehow I would pay extra for something that reduces bonding costs.

Despite urban myth to the contrary, roaches are not actually immune to radiation.

Very true
Still, when I first read Street Magic thats what first came to my mind in regards to Roach spirits.

No way, I totally heard it from people who know people who do stuff and they totally know what they're talking about. I mean I've seen it in TV shows and everything

Actually Mythbusters tested this with roaches and various other insects. As I recall the roach basically did the worse of the insects they tested. Been a while since I saw the episode though.

Ok, despite being maybe not the perfect way to defend against masses of insect spirits (or anything else that attacks in big amounts) is it possible to give the elemental-aura spell an area effect? Or had this already been discussed in an errata, forum-topic etc. i don´t know anything about? ^^

Oh, and it was a mixture of flesh-form, real-form and a lot hybrid-forms. But they were all very nasty so i need something that simply kills enemys, without any specialisation.

Rule-wise this could even work, but the description of the normal spell doesn't suit this kind of behavior IMHO. The original spell only damages people if they attack the target with a melee attack or the target attacks them in the same manner. So how could the spell know when to retaliate against a ranged attack but not burn/freeze/electrocute everything in between? On a more practical note, most ranged attacks needn't be carried out from 6m or less(Force 6), so most attackers wouldn't be affected anyway or the caster would have to remove dice from his pool to enlarge the area. The drain for the spell is also considerable, it should be F/2+5.

Right, the desciption is very vague regarding it´s basic intention. In my side of view, the damage that is done causes of the closeness to the caster of the spell. So no matter who is attacking, you are in the reach of the magic and therefore get damaged. If you then change the spell to a radius to (magic)-meters, this would imply that you get damaged as long as you are in this specific range. Would you agree with that?

This is not true, though it may have been the intention.
You could stand next to the target of the spell and not get burned/zapped/whatever, missing the target of the spell or a successful defense by the target doesn't cause damage either. By RAW you could even shake the target's hand and not be harmed since it is not an attack. If this spell were to be converted into an area version, the target would also need to be wary what he is standing on. If the spell is effective enough, it should also burn through the floor he is standing on, but the description of the original spell suggests otherwise.

You could however make a new spell with all the advantages and drawbacks of walking around in a sphere of fire - yes a sphere so this would even burn anything in the floor above and below the target.

Ahhh...that´s another side i didn´t even thought about. Thank you very much for this little brainstorming. I will have to talk to the GM about this.

... and suddenly taking it as a Mana spell starts to sound attractive ...

Unfortunately not, because it wouldn´t harm enemies behind me.

Maybe a sort of sustained Hostile Mana Aura spell? It radiates damaging mana from the center of the spell. LOS isn't such a problem for touch-centered spells.

LOS isn't a problem at all for this kind of spell. LOS is only required during casting and the caster only needs to see the target. The target of the [Element] Aura Spell is a person, so this is no problem.

Like I said, kill it with fire. Sticky, hot, chemical fire, with lots of smoke if possible. All kinds of shrapnell are also great, but lack the primal fear and area denial of incendiary weapons.

Mundane shrapnel is a pretty bad idea against any armored (be it regular or ItNW armor) target. A type restricted Indirect Combat Spell with the Metal effect should be a good choice, if you don't want to go the Slaughter/Mass Dormancy [Target Type] route. The DV is increased by two, but you don't have to worry about Regeneration or ItNW since it is magic You do have all the drawbacks of ICS though.

Logically I'd say that Metal created through the spell is metal and thus subject to ItNW but the rules say otherwise and Indirect Combat spells are nerfed enough.

This is a great idea. Even better than an elemental attack version. I will have to steal it for my character, sorry.^^

Any element created via magic is considered magical for the purposes of ItNW. Basically, did magic create the effect? If Yes, then ItNW does not apply.

I'd personally go for an AoE spell made to kill bug spirits. Barring that, I'd use Astral Perception and cast the spirit killing spell on the Astral thereby allowing the spell to automatically miss anyone on the Physical. Any friendly Materialized / Astral spirits would need to leave the area prior to casting though (should I not have a Bug Spirit killing spell). Likewise, any Inhabitation Spirits would need to scoot as well (Dual Natured).

Alternatively, make a Physical only spirit killing spell. That would ignore any teammates as well as any of your own friendly spirits on the Astral. Also takes advantage of the fact that Astral only entities cannot directly harm you on the Physical.

A fun Indirect Combat Spell for Bug Spirits would be one that created a Giant boot to smoosh the Bug...

Happy to help.. but be careful to make sure your friends aren't standing too close (or have enough counterspelling to protect them..)

Aehmmm...this wasn´t really the intention. This is more of a "self-defense" than helping my teammates. After the situation i mentioned, they ran away and left me back because i cannot run as fast as they can. ^^

Right, immunity....[long beep]

Did I mention one could also kill everything with fire?

Quite basic solution for everything, eh? Works since several thousand years....never change a running system.^^

All count as Insect Spirits. A simple anti-spirit spell would work against ALL of them. In 4th edition, being a Flesh Form or Hybrid does not provide any sort of special protection against anti-spirit measures other than concealment for Flesh Forms (they look human on the physical plane, but are still easy to sniff out as they are dual natured). Most mages in our SR groups run with at least a single target Spirit-killing spell, as a better alternative to banishment.

Still, as far as RP advice, if you had a bad run-in with insect spirits, wouldn't it make sense that your character would run around with an insecticide dose (spray, gas, etc.)? Most of my characters, after their very first run-in with insect spirits or with a Magic Theory skill of 3 or higher would run with an insecticide grenade for this very countermeasure, and in SR4, it's particularly deadly against insect spirits. Remember, Immunity to Normal Weapons does not apply against Severe Allergies, as stated in my previous post. Immunity to Normal Weapons doesn't work against contact toxins anyway (since it's effectively armor rating and not a chem seal). Then again, according to SR4 rules, Spirits don't have Immunity to Toxins of any kind.

Also, if you wanted to just play keep-away with any living target (including spirits), just use a Mana Barrier spell?

I don´t just want to keep them away, i want to kill them if they get to close. And before i spend 5 karma for a single-purpose-spirit-zapper-spell, i simply take the good ol´manabolt everybody has in his arsenal. So i was looking for something that doesn´t already exist to meet this requirements and which has as much versatility as possible. A spirit-zapper-barrier only zapps spirits, but what if i meet a couple of devil-rats, hellhounds etc? My motto is quite simple "be prepared".^^

if you're just looking to have a spell that you can nuke your own area with in case of emergency, you can technically make a spell called "Slaughter stuff that isn't me", though i personally would not give you the lower drain code for a restricted target unless you really restricted it further than that (for bonus marks, you *may* even be able to extend it to "slaughter stuff that doesn't have my signature" so that it wouldn't hit your spirits or anchoring foci etc... )

i would personally ad hoc an added point of drain instead of lowering the drain though; the spell is clearly *more* useful, not less, because of the restriction.

(if you want to get *really* ridiculous, iirc the detect spells list enemies as a possible choice to detect for, which technically means that magic *can* tell the difference between friends and enemies... that said, if i were your GM i'd strongly consider bad things™ happening to your character out of sheer spite if you tried to pull that... and if i were a player, i wouldn't suggest it because i wouldn't expect any GM to actually allow such a spell)

another possibility is to just split your dicepool a lot, have a high counterspelling pool, and trust in your reduced spellcasting dicepool to not overcome your counterspelling... works best with multiple overlapping manaballs/stunballs/etc

Take the Stunbolt/-ball instead. It kills or more accurately disrupts spirits just as well and causes less drain, all other living enemies will be knocked out but you can always cast it again, if you really want someone dead.

"Slaughter stuff that isn't me" sounds great and fits exactly to my character-concept. The only thing that is not really solved here, is the sustaining-part of the wished magic. Maybe if the spell would work as a repellant like skunk-spray, it could be enough to keep everybody away from me without causing too much trouble with my GM because i wanted a sustained Nuke-Spell that could kill my own party or the walls/floor/ceiling around me. I will have to check this.

Finally we get to the heart of it.
You can't expect to stand your ground in every situation.

Get some hover shoes or something. (Why don't they have a wearable version of Skimmer Disks anyway?)
Whatevs. Air Spirit - movement ability - bound.

Would have worked if i wouldn´t have been standing in the heart of a rating 2 BC with 6 boxes of physical, plus 4 boxes of mental damage. No time and resources to Conjure a spirit AND tell him in the next phase what he has to do. I had an level 3 "increased reflexes" spell on the sustaining focus which left me with just one phase. A "big emergency" spell would have been THE option in that case.^^

An area effect version of Slay Spirit isn't really that specialized. As a mage you'll be running into spirits all the time. But if you want something more general there's always Mana Static. Can be sustained, and once you reduce the spirit's force by three or four points and you'll be able to kill them with just about anything. And unlike an area effect fire aura you won't kill all your nearby teammates in the process.

mana static has been errated iirc... it no longer takes effect instantly, but requires time to fully take effect.

And in 4A it hits the caster to, you could probably customize the spell not to but...

it always hit the caster. unless you're talking about the german "aspected mana static", which i am strongly convinced a GM would have be insane to think was a reasonable spell to include.

i'm not particularly convinced you could avoid hitting the caster either... the target is the mana in the area, not the caster, so unlike, say, manaball (which hits living things within it's AOE) with mana static you are 'attacking' the mana in the area.

Right. I just rechecked the mentioned spells. Mana Static hinders the mage itself, mana barrier (also the offensive and spezialised versions) is not really "moveable" and indirect combatspells with the mage as center of effect are a really stupid idea while direct combatspells don´t affect anything behind the caster. So, and what now?^^