Dragon ownage? Options

[MrOramri]

Well me and my friend where bored so I randomly had my friend and his team fight a great dragon, and they won. Once the dragon apperred they ran for a car and got in driving away at full speed the dragon unleashed a lighting bolt [force 10 lol] and rolls terribly and misses. They continue driving and throw the street samuri at the dragon who lands on the dragon and pulls out his katana and once again though miracle dice rolls is able to inflict 6 damage on the dragon he then jumped of and land back in the car. Once again the dragon tries bitting the car but fails again and eats a girl scout instead of the car. During their turn the driver whips the car around and heads straight for the dragon then hits a ramp in the form of construction materials and flies into the air straight at the dragon who once again fails and dosent dodge it, all three of them then jump out of the car mid air and fall 8 meters taking 8 damage the car then flies into the dragon dealing 24 damage of raming speed killing the dragon lol. Our heros then procced to walk into the sunset only to be arested by waiting lone star officals.


I am left speechless for the next hour.

[booher]

Sounds like the dragon should have used some edge. Or Twist Fate.

[Faelan]

Your "Average" Great Dragon having smoked a lot of bad shit the night before, and still under its affects decides to use next to none of its abilities and suicide on a group of runners. Not really hard to believe based on the random encounter premise.

Great Dragons NEVER randomly encounter anybody. Your runners should have gotten wiped out by an elite wetwork team, end of encounter. The Great Dragon is too busy to handle the tiny problem your runners represent, that is what he has minions for. Oh and these minions don't generally openly confront runners they quietly eliminate them by poisoning their food, sleeping with them and slitting their throats, putting a perfectly round hole through their forehead, or having them ride around with enough explosives to vaporize them.

[Ancient History]

Great Dragons win fights in the same way that humans win fights: they cheat. Any lizard that figured out a couple thousand years ago that the person that screws up last in the fight wins is going to do their damndest to be that person. Here endeth the lesson.

[Sengir]

Great Dragons win fights in the same way that humans win fights: they cheat.

And they even have that as an ability (manipulate fate). If you roll godlike against a Great Dragon, he'll just shrug and have you roll again.

[MikeKozar]

...just as a "for instance", the Dragon could have picked them off with repeated F10 Lightning Bolts from 500 meters up. There's no reason for it to be down at street level. Beyond that, SR Dragons are always played as masterminds - I can't recall them ever going toe-to-toe with anybody. They're also usually heavy on Smarts and Intelligence, meaning they know more about the situation then you do and are prepared to exploit it.

I guess what I'm trying to say is, I'm pretty sure I could have killed your buddy. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Draco18s]

Well me and my friend where bored so I randomly had my friend and his team fight a great dragon, and they won. Once the dragon apperred they ran for a car and got in driving away at full speed the dragon unleashed a lighting bolt [force 10 lol] and rolls terribly and misses.

How many dice was he throwing? He should have been throwing 22 dice vs. the car's Wilpower (0) + Your Mage's Counterspelling (max 6). If he somehow has fewer successes, Twist Fate on the resist roll ("reroll all hits").

GM Mistake 1

They continue driving and throw the street samuri at the dragon who lands on the dragon

WTH? How much "jump" does he have? There's no way he should have been able to make it (GM Mistake 2) and even if he could, the dragon should have Twisted Fate (reroll all hits), GM Mistake 3.

and pulls out his katana and once again though miracle dice rolls is able to inflict 6 damage on the dragon

Twist Fate (reroll all hits). GM Mistake 4. Not to mention that the dragon should have 11 dice to dodging followed by the street sam managing to do a whopping 21 damage before the dragon rolls to resist.
Katana: (S/2)+3 P
21 - 3 = 18 - (Strength 12/2) = 12.
12 Net Hits? WTF? I roll to disbelieve. And I win, because even if the Sam used edge and got huge exploding 6's, the dragon TWISTS FATE and negates the use.

he then jumped of and land back in the car.

All before the dragon got to do anything about it? He can't move twice in turn (25 meters of running divided by 4 passes = ~6 meters a pass, enough for 1 jump). Also, Twist Fate (reroll all hits) again. GM Mistakes 5 and 6.

Once again the dragon tries bitting the car but fails again and eats a girl scout instead of the car.

Dragons aren't fucking awesome at biting things, not does it do that much damage (10P -2AP; dragons are incapable of hurting each other with their claws and bite). Despite the +2 reach. Should have used more Lightning. GM Mistake 7.

During their turn the driver whips the car around and heads straight for the dragon then hits a ramp in the form of construction materials and flies into the air straight at the dragon who once again fails and dosent dodge it, all three of them then jump out of the car mid air and fall 8 meters taking 8 damage the car then flies into the dragon dealing 24 damage of raming speed

I don't even know what to say about this, except:

24 damage of ramming damage? Was that after resisting? There's no way they could get going that fast after a hard U turn if the sam could leap 8 meters to the dragon and back. The car would still be in the middle of turning around when the dragon's moving speed over-flys the car.

Also, Twist Fate, Twist Fate, Twist Fate. GM Mistakes 8, 9, 10, and 11.

killing the dragon lol. Our heros then procced to walk into the sunset only to be arested by waiting lone star officals.

Dragon should have burnt a point of Edge to stay alive, after having spent 2 points getting dice to dodge the car and resist the damage (because it obviously had edge left at this point, as it obviously didn't use any previously). GM Mistake 12, 13, and 14.

[Maelstrome]

im guessing you are new to shadowrun. it takes a lot of planning to play a gd by the setting.
my team has gone against one and had to surrender. a gd will take advantage of lots of spells quickened as well as anchoring focuses. spirits and other minions will be seen before the gd is.

[Draco18s]

im guessing you are new to shadowrun. it takes a lot of planning to play a gd by the setting.

Even knowing nothing about the setting, but understanding the rules and seeing the entry on Twist Fate you should go "holy shit, that's broken" and use it to your advantage.

[Sengir]

And of course Great Dragons would usually have some more resources at hand than just their body. An ancient relic of fiery doom, F20 spirits, metamagics researchers don't even think to be possible, or just a deity of your choice which descends from the heavens with all its wrath and smiteth the PCs to kingdom come on behalf of its old drinking buddy.

[Kliko]

or just materialize a spirit in the car... dragons (as opposed to players) are allowed to do that kind of stuff.

[Doc Byte]

Beyond that, SR Dragons are always played as masterminds - I can't recall them ever going toe-to-toe with anybody. They're also usually heavy on Smarts and Intelligence, meaning they know more about the situation then you do and are prepared to exploit it.

I recall a fight against a dragon in Maria Mercurial. And the one in Paradise Lost seemed not to be expecting guests.

[Glyph]

To be fair to the OP, this didn't sound like any kind of serious encounter, more of a "LOL, let's see how these characters would do against a great dragon."

I'm not sure it's worth being "speechless for an hour" over, though. I mean, when you let the players use the ramming rules, along with a conveniently-placed construction ramp, and a flying enemy that conveniently hovers within reach of the attack... well, what do you expect? And even with the dragon using stupid tactics, nearly none of its abilities, and having horrible rolls, the PCs still wound up taking 8 damage each. It sounds like a good time was had by all, which is the most important thing. But impressive? Not so much.

[Hagga]

Your "Average" Great Dragon having smoked a lot of bad shit the night before, and still under its affects decides to use next to none of its abilities and suicide on a group of runners. Not really hard to believe based on the random encounter premise.

Great Dragons NEVER randomly encounter anybody. Your runners should have gotten wiped out by an elite wetwork team, end of encounter. The Great Dragon is too busy to handle the tiny problem your runners represent, that is what he has minions for. Oh and these minions don't generally openly confront runners they quietly eliminate them by poisoning their food, sleeping with them and slitting their throats, putting a perfectly round hole through their forehead, or having them ride around with enough explosives to vaporize them.

Not to mention that the great dragon's statted in the book are RIDICULOUSLY underpowered.

[Delarn]

Mistake is ... the only GD that died was because of a suicide ... And it was for a good reason ... It was the president of the UCAS ... So go figure they only encoutered a normal Dragon. Even there they would have died ... Don't deal with a Dragon !

[Platinum]

Not to mention that the great dragon's statted in the book are RIDICULOUSLY underpowered.

Ugh.... GD's being shadowrun's little superpower dieties is nauseating. I miss the days when a panther cannon would do more than polish their hides.
Heck a vindicator minigun was an awesome equalizer in first edition. Part of the problem with shadowrun losing it's grittiness was makes dragons, and IE invulnerable.

[toturi]

Not to mention that the great dragon's statted in the book are RIDICULOUSLY underpowered.

Eh? The only underpowered thing about the GD stats are that they do not state how much resources an average GD should have access to or what kinds of knowledge skills, or the levels of which, they have.

[Draco18s]

Eh? The only underpowered thing about the GD stats are that they do not state how much resources an average GD should have access to or what kinds of knowledge skills, or the levels of which, they have.

Knowledge Skill:
"What the PCs are Doing" (rank 7)
"What the PCs are Planning" (rank 7)

[Hagga]

Eh? The only underpowered thing about the GD stats are that they do not state how much resources an average GD should have access to or what kinds of knowledge skills, or the levels of which, they have.

12 magic.

[Glyph]

I agree with Platinum. I hated when IEs and great dragons were nothing but Gary Stu plot devices that were invulnerable by game designer fiat.

Great dragons should be hard to kill because they combine toughness and magical ability with superhuman intelligence and extensive resources. But they should still be vulnerable to claymore-wielding trolls, missiles, etc. The trick should be getting them in a position where you can threaten them with those things, in the first place.

And even then, they are hardly "underpowered". 20 points of hardened armor, Body in the twenties, Agility in the teens, 12 Magic, spells and conjuring (along with whatever bound spirits and foci it would logically have), and the twist fate power. Along with its security team...

Taking out a great dragon should be possible - it should just require planning, legwork, overwhelming force, and a good bit of luck. And even then, it should be far from easy.

[toturi]

12 magic.

Is not underpowered.

[Red_Cap]

Alamais got hit by an orbit-to-surface laser and survived. The OP's dragon should have taken that car to the face and laughed.

[Glyph]

I pay more attention to the actual stats in the book. I prefer dragons as incredibly tough, but not invulnerable, and actually scaled to the game world, rather than invincible plot devices that chew up jet fighters, soak orbital bombardments, and whatever other lame-ass crap the writers come up with.

Besides, Alamais is a named great dragon, with stats that are probably a good bit above the baseline, so it's not that relevant of a comparison.

[toturi]

I pay more attention to the actual stats in the book. I prefer dragons as incredibly tough, but not invulnerable, and actually scaled to the game world, rather than invincible plot devices that chew up jet fighters, soak orbital bombardments, and whatever other lame-ass crap the writers come up with.

Besides, Alamais is a named great dragon, with stats that are probably a good bit above the baseline, so it's not that relevant of a comparison.

Probably spent Edge and soaked the laser hit too.

If we extrapolate from canon (as in the storyline and setting background), only Masaru would be anywhere near those stats. Perhaps some of the other GDs like Alamais too who seem never able to catch a break.

[Falconer]

How many dice was he throwing? He should have been throwing 22 dice vs. the car's Wilpower (0) + Your Mage's Counterspelling (max 6). If he somehow has fewer successes, Twist Fate on the resist roll ("reroll all hits").

GM Mistake 1

Blatantly Incorrect...

If he's referring tot he dragons breath weapon... then it's exotic ranged attack vs. the drivers reaction +-handling (+dodge if full dodging).

Similarly... if it is an actual lightning bolt... "Indirect Combat spells are treated like ranged combat attacks; the caster makes a Spellcasting + Magic Success Test versus the target’s Reaction." Though even great dragons can have trouble w/ the drain on these spells! (+3 drain code... force 10== 8 drain, so I don't know about... all day).

In either case, lightning/electricity is the wrong element to use... it's element does stun damage, so can't hurt vehicles. Only shut them down if they roll poorly. If we change to the default of fire or acid... it's all the same dicewise... but the damage is physical (and avoids the electricity secondary effects... which can be a real pain to use in play...).


IF!! he used powerbolt instead... (a direct combat spell). The vehicle would STILL not roll it's body/willpower to resist. For direct spells, the test is a simple object resistance threshhold test. Also note... the object does not get a resistance test. As a highly processed vehicle... it's going to be a OR5... (EG: dragon needs 5 hits or more to hurt it... though every hit past 5 adds unresisted damage).


Which brings us to another fine point of the rules you've got wrong on spellcasting counterspelling.
P183... Step 5 determining effect... "spells cast on living or magic targets... resisted... may add counterspelling"
"Spells cast on non-living, non-magic target IS NOT RESISTED. ... object resistance chart" they do not add counterspelling.

So the vehicle would not benefit from counterspelling, even if present, and even then the mage would need to have time/remember to announce that he's protecting the vehicle w/ counterspelling (if you're house ruling it).


Though again another problem I see here... dragons are rich... it's going to have bound spirits as a magician... it can instantly summon an army of high force spirits... so my only dispute w/ the OP is that he pretty much ignored the dragons intelligence, assets, and twist fate powers.