Well me and my friend where bored so I randomly had my friend and his team fight a great dragon, and they won. Once the dragon apperred they ran for a car and got in driving away at full speed the dragon unleashed a lighting bolt [force 10 lol] and rolls terribly and misses. They continue driving and throw the street samuri at the dragon who lands on the dragon and pulls out his katana and once again though miracle dice rolls is able to inflict 6 damage on the dragon he then jumped of and land back in the car. Once again the dragon tries bitting the car but fails again and eats a girl scout instead of the car. During their turn the driver whips the car around and heads straight for the dragon then hits a ramp in the form of construction materials and flies into the air straight at the dragon who once again fails and dosent dodge it, all three of them then jump out of the car mid air and fall 8 meters taking 8 damage the car then flies into the dragon dealing 24 damage of raming speed killing the dragon lol. Our heros then procced to walk into the sunset only to be arested by waiting lone star officals.


I am left speechless for the next hour.

Sounds like the dragon should have used some edge. Or Twist Fate.

Your "Average" Great Dragon having smoked a lot of bad shit the night before, and still under its affects decides to use next to none of its abilities and suicide on a group of runners. Not really hard to believe based on the random encounter premise.

Great Dragons NEVER randomly encounter anybody. Your runners should have gotten wiped out by an elite wetwork team, end of encounter. The Great Dragon is too busy to handle the tiny problem your runners represent, that is what he has minions for. Oh and these minions don't generally openly confront runners they quietly eliminate them by poisoning their food, sleeping with them and slitting their throats, putting a perfectly round hole through their forehead, or having them ride around with enough explosives to vaporize them.

Great Dragons win fights in the same way that humans win fights: they cheat. Any lizard that figured out a couple thousand years ago that the person that screws up last in the fight wins is going to do their damndest to be that person. Here endeth the lesson.

And they even have that as an ability (manipulate fate). If you roll godlike against a Great Dragon, he'll just shrug and have you roll again.

...just as a "for instance", the Dragon could have picked them off with repeated F10 Lightning Bolts from 500 meters up. There's no reason for it to be down at street level. Beyond that, SR Dragons are always played as masterminds - I can't recall them ever going toe-to-toe with anybody. They're also usually heavy on Smarts and Intelligence, meaning they know more about the situation then you do and are prepared to exploit it.

I guess what I'm trying to say is, I'm pretty sure I could have killed your buddy.

How many dice was he throwing? He should have been throwing 22 dice vs. the car's Wilpower (0) + Your Mage's Counterspelling (max 6). If he somehow has fewer successes, Twist Fate on the resist roll ("reroll all hits").

GM Mistake 1



WTH? How much "jump" does he have? There's no way he should have been able to make it (GM Mistake 2) and even if he could, the dragon should have Twisted Fate (reroll all hits), GM Mistake 3.



Twist Fate (reroll all hits). GM Mistake 4. Not to mention that the dragon should have 11 dice to dodging followed by the street sam managing to do a whopping 21 damage before the dragon rolls to resist.
Katana: (S/2)+3 P
21 - 3 = 18 - (Strength 12/2) = 12.
12 Net Hits? WTF? I roll to disbelieve. And I win, because even if the Sam used edge and got huge exploding 6's, the dragon TWISTS FATE and negates the use.



All before the dragon got to do anything about it? He can't move twice in turn (25 meters of running divided by 4 passes = ~6 meters a pass, enough for 1 jump). Also, Twist Fate (reroll all hits) again. GM Mistakes 5 and 6.



Dragons aren't fucking awesome at biting things, not does it do that much damage (10P -2AP; dragons are incapable of hurting each other with their claws and bite). Despite the +2 reach. Should have used more Lightning. GM Mistake 7.



I don't even know what to say about this, except:

24 damage of ramming damage? Was that after resisting? There's no way they could get going that fast after a hard U turn if the sam could leap 8 meters to the dragon and back. The car would still be in the middle of turning around when the dragon's moving speed over-flys the car.

Also, Twist Fate, Twist Fate, Twist Fate. GM Mistakes 8, 9, 10, and 11.



Dragon should have burnt a point of Edge to stay alive, after having spent 2 points getting dice to dodge the car and resist the damage (because it obviously had edge left at this point, as it obviously didn't use any previously). GM Mistake 12, 13, and 14.

im guessing you are new to shadowrun. it takes a lot of planning to play a gd by the setting.
my team has gone against one and had to surrender. a gd will take advantage of lots of spells quickened as well as anchoring focuses. spirits and other minions will be seen before the gd is.

Even knowing nothing about the setting, but understanding the rules and seeing the entry on Twist Fate you should go "holy shit, that's broken" and use it to your advantage.

And of course Great Dragons would usually have some more resources at hand than just their body. An ancient relic of fiery doom, F20 spirits, metamagics researchers don't even think to be possible, or just a deity of your choice which descends from the heavens with all its wrath and smiteth the PCs to kingdom come on behalf of its old drinking buddy.

or just materialize a spirit in the car... dragons (as opposed to players) are allowed to do that kind of stuff.

I recall a fight against a dragon in Maria Mercurial. And the one in Paradise Lost seemed not to be expecting guests.

To be fair to the OP, this didn't sound like any kind of serious encounter, more of a "LOL, let's see how these characters would do against a great dragon."

I'm not sure it's worth being "speechless for an hour" over, though. I mean, when you let the players use the ramming rules, along with a conveniently-placed construction ramp, and a flying enemy that conveniently hovers within reach of the attack... well, what do you expect? And even with the dragon using stupid tactics, nearly none of its abilities, and having horrible rolls, the PCs still wound up taking 8 damage each. It sounds like a good time was had by all, which is the most important thing. But impressive? Not so much.

Not to mention that the great dragon's statted in the book are RIDICULOUSLY underpowered.

Mistake is ... the only GD that died was because of a suicide ... And it was for a good reason ... It was the president of the UCAS ... So go figure they only encoutered a normal Dragon. Even there they would have died ... Don't deal with a Dragon !

Ugh.... GD's being shadowrun's little superpower dieties is nauseating. I miss the days when a panther cannon would do more than polish their hides.
Heck a vindicator minigun was an awesome equalizer in first edition. Part of the problem with shadowrun losing it's grittiness was makes dragons, and IE invulnerable.

Eh? The only underpowered thing about the GD stats are that they do not state how much resources an average GD should have access to or what kinds of knowledge skills, or the levels of which, they have.

Knowledge Skill:
"What the PCs are Doing" (rank 7)
"What the PCs are Planning" (rank 7)

12 magic.

I agree with Platinum. I hated when IEs and great dragons were nothing but Gary Stu plot devices that were invulnerable by game designer fiat.

Great dragons should be hard to kill because they combine toughness and magical ability with superhuman intelligence and extensive resources. But they should still be vulnerable to claymore-wielding trolls, missiles, etc. The trick should be getting them in a position where you can threaten them with those things, in the first place.

And even then, they are hardly "underpowered". 20 points of hardened armor, Body in the twenties, Agility in the teens, 12 Magic, spells and conjuring (along with whatever bound spirits and foci it would logically have), and the twist fate power. Along with its security team...

Taking out a great dragon should be possible - it should just require planning, legwork, overwhelming force, and a good bit of luck. And even then, it should be far from easy.

Is not underpowered.

Alamais got hit by an orbit-to-surface laser and survived. The OP's dragon should have taken that car to the face and laughed.

I pay more attention to the actual stats in the book. I prefer dragons as incredibly tough, but not invulnerable, and actually scaled to the game world, rather than invincible plot devices that chew up jet fighters, soak orbital bombardments, and whatever other lame-ass crap the writers come up with.

Besides, Alamais is a named great dragon, with stats that are probably a good bit above the baseline, so it's not that relevant of a comparison.

Probably spent Edge and soaked the laser hit too.

If we extrapolate from canon (as in the storyline and setting background), only Masaru would be anywhere near those stats. Perhaps some of the other GDs like Alamais too who seem never able to catch a break.

Blatantly Incorrect...

If he's referring tot he dragons breath weapon... then it's exotic ranged attack vs. the drivers reaction +-handling (+dodge if full dodging).

Similarly... if it is an actual lightning bolt... "Indirect Combat spells are treated like ranged combat attacks; the caster makes a Spellcasting + Magic Success Test versus the target’s Reaction." Though even great dragons can have trouble w/ the drain on these spells! (+3 drain code... force 10== 8 drain, so I don't know about... all day).

In either case, lightning/electricity is the wrong element to use... it's element does stun damage, so can't hurt vehicles. Only shut them down if they roll poorly. If we change to the default of fire or acid... it's all the same dicewise... but the damage is physical (and avoids the electricity secondary effects... which can be a real pain to use in play...).


IF!! he used powerbolt instead... (a direct combat spell). The vehicle would STILL not roll it's body/willpower to resist. For direct spells, the test is a simple object resistance threshhold test. Also note... the object does not get a resistance test. As a highly processed vehicle... it's going to be a OR5... (EG: dragon needs 5 hits or more to hurt it... though every hit past 5 adds unresisted damage).


Which brings us to another fine point of the rules you've got wrong on spellcasting counterspelling.
P183... Step 5 determining effect... "spells cast on living or magic targets... resisted... may add counterspelling"
"Spells cast on non-living, non-magic target IS NOT RESISTED. ... object resistance chart" they do not add counterspelling.

So the vehicle would not benefit from counterspelling, even if present, and even then the mage would need to have time/remember to announce that he's protecting the vehicle w/ counterspelling (if you're house ruling it).


Though again another problem I see here... dragons are rich... it's going to have bound spirits as a magician... it can instantly summon an army of high force spirits... so my only dispute w/ the OP is that he pretty much ignored the dragons intelligence, assets, and twist fate powers.

The Lightning Bolt/Ball Lightning in SR4A distinctly states damage as P for Physical. And it is unlikely to be an error as SR4 states the same as well and has been brought up from time to time.

Yeah, I'm unsure if the OP meant his dragon was using a lightning breath or spell. If breath, it's stun... if spell... it's a grey area (locally, it's stun... other places it's sometimes physical... IMO... I like stun, as other 'elements' like sonic aren't very common and a stun based indirect spell is a good thing to have available in the core book).

I just have some sympathy for the OP as he's new and asking for help... little sympathy for someone who criticizes him so harshly and doesn't even bother reading spellcasting 101 or combat spells in the BBB.

Hmm. Powerbolt is nasty; since the damage isn't resisted (past Object Resistance), any damage you achieve is directly done to the vehicle. With a F12 powerbolt, that's 13-19 damage.. likely to destroy it immediately. And the dragon's not even overcasting yet. If there's a rigger in there, he likely falls over due to biofeedback and dumpshock..

If you really just want the players dead the trick would be to have the GD back off to a fairly safe distance and muster Illusions and Physical Manipulations to cover his scaly rear. Once that's done with, just whip up a high Force Spirit or three with the Accident power. Basically, the runners have a few choices here: they can try and get away slowly while fending off Spirits and Great Dragon nukes, in which case they'll probably die unless he gets bored or something. Alternatively, they can try and get away fast in a vehicle, at which point the Spirits just hit them with Accident until they crash into something and die. Between Twist Fate and the steep penalty Accident applies when wielded by a sufficiently powerful critter, it's probably going to end pretty badly.

For a being that's 10,000 years old when Frosty is at least an eighth grade initiate, I'd say it is. They never figured out how to initiate more than six times?

Technically they aren't even 1st level initiates as statted. They have 12 base magic.

Even if that is true, what is Jane Foster's Magic then? Initiation raises the limit of Magic, does it actually raise Magic itself?

I'd think that a 10000 year old being (with such high Logic and Intuition) would have figured out that focusing on a single attribute has diminishing returns.

While everyone in SR has figured that out (for the most part) no one in any other game has. Looking at The Other Game, Wizards are frequently depicted as wizened old men.

While everyone in SR has figured that out (for the most part) no one in any other game has. Looking at The Other Game, Wizards are frequently depicted as wizened old men.

I consider those stats to be in relation to a fresh 400BP character. A wizworm who has been around since the Fourth World or even longer will have slightly higher stats

Sounds like the dragon died because you played him to be a feeble idiot, instead of the crafty supergenius bastards they are supposed to be.

Plus, your dice numbers sound way off.



-karma

Let me play a simple dragon against your GD anyday, OP, and I'll show you how to play them. When I read things like (these are paraphrased) "They are commonly Initiated," "they should have some karma on-hand to use for abilities," and "they know most spells," I start thinking to myself "Ok, this dragon has six F6 Phyiscal Chameleon spell Quickened with 6 successes each, giving everyone trying to see him or attack him with ranged weapons a -36 dicepool modifier to do so. He also has the same setup for the Combat Sense and Deflection spells, and he cares not about armor since he 1) Won't be seen, and 2) can't be hit."

Yes I knew about twist fate and all those other things we where just messing around as I said i wasnt really trying. Just wanted to talk about the car thing meh.

Yeah, the vehicle rules in SR4 are fairly astoundingly bad and unplaytested. I'm still looking for a good ruleset to replace them.

Car Wars ;P

Actually... that might not be a half bad idea....

I've also run into Road Hogs (not exactly a TMNT expansion) that has very detailed rules (BULLETS IN THE RADIATOR? ) but on a cursory glance looked pretty decent and simple enough (obviously adding in the detailed stuff complicates things, but a lot of it was optional or could very easily be made optional).

Right before the "Jane is as powerful as she needs to be" in Dusk it gives her an "Initiate grade of at least eight". I'd think that a 10,000 year old being (with such high Logic and Intuition) would have figured out that being able to squash your average magician who's spent a lifetime studying to get that far is a good thing in a world where you're seen as a meal ticket with a billion trillion dollars. Even some of the feats attributed to them couldn't be achieved without enormous overcasting, and that's just the smaller ones. As it is, they're going to be taking obscene amounts of drain just killing a drone.

New Metamagic:
Ignore Drain (Dragon Only)
Requires: Centering, Quickening, Invoking, Sensing.
An initiate with this feat may, up to a number of times per day equal to their total edge plus initiate level, completely ignore the drain (and sustaining penalty, if any) of any single spell or spirit summoning, binding, or invoking.

I hate you.

There was also a dragon you could fight (not a great) in Bottled Demon. That of course dates me......

My job here....is done!

Jane isn't an average magican who's spent a lifetime studying to get that far. She is the apprentice of a kickass magician whom most dragons do not look upon as a primary foodgroup. And GDs aren't seen as a meal ticket to a billion trillion dollars either, they are seen as things worth a billion trillion nuyen of trouble even if you manage to kill one.

No, but your average magician who does not have Harlequin for a mentor, Ehran for a daddy or at the very least be the head of the Benandanti and learn from Schwarzkopf (most accessible route I can think of) is going to spend a life time studying to end up at that point. If they weren't seen as hugely powerful monsters (with a billion trillion dollars) they would be meal tickets, and a few object lessons have shown them to be hugely powerful monsters.

Your average magician is not going to end up at that point, a lifetime of study or not.

Damien Knight or even any CEO of a AA or any other such sized entity is not looked upon as meal tickets either and those are evidently much less formidable on a personal basis than any GD, some of those guys could be worth more than some GDs. Just because you killed a GD doesn't mean all that PHAT loot will drop from the metaplanes into your bank account.

So true Turtle.
I think most people forget that the cool thing about shadowrun is that killing isn't going to advance you like in D&D, most of the time it just gets you into more trouble than you expect. (which is why it should pay)