Dragon ownage? Options

[toturi]

In either case, lightning/electricity is the wrong element to use... it's element does stun damage, so can't hurt vehicles. Only shut them down if they roll poorly. If we change to the default of fire or acid... it's all the same dicewise... but the damage is physical (and avoids the electricity secondary effects... which can be a real pain to use in play...).

The Lightning Bolt/Ball Lightning in SR4A distinctly states damage as P for Physical. And it is unlikely to be an error as SR4 states the same as well and has been brought up from time to time.

[Falconer]

The Lightning Bolt/Ball Lightning in SR4A distinctly states damage as P for Physical. And it is unlikely to be an error as SR4 states the same as well and has been brought up from time to time.

Yeah, I'm unsure if the OP meant his dragon was using a lightning breath or spell. If breath, it's stun... if spell... it's a grey area (locally, it's stun... other places it's sometimes physical... IMO... I like stun, as other 'elements' like sonic aren't very common and a stun based indirect spell is a good thing to have available in the core book).

I just have some sympathy for the OP as he's new and asking for help... little sympathy for someone who criticizes him so harshly and doesn't even bother reading spellcasting 101 or combat spells in the BBB.

[Ascalaphus]

Hmm. Powerbolt is nasty; since the damage isn't resisted (past Object Resistance), any damage you achieve is directly done to the vehicle. With a F12 powerbolt, that's 13-19 damage.. likely to destroy it immediately. And the dragon's not even overcasting yet. If there's a rigger in there, he likely falls over due to biofeedback and dumpshock..

[Whipstitch]

If you really just want the players dead the trick would be to have the GD back off to a fairly safe distance and muster Illusions and Physical Manipulations to cover his scaly rear. Once that's done with, just whip up a high Force Spirit or three with the Accident power. Basically, the runners have a few choices here: they can try and get away slowly while fending off Spirits and Great Dragon nukes, in which case they'll probably die unless he gets bored or something. Alternatively, they can try and get away fast in a vehicle, at which point the Spirits just hit them with Accident until they crash into something and die. Between Twist Fate and the steep penalty Accident applies when wielded by a sufficiently powerful critter, it's probably going to end pretty badly.

[Hagga]

Is not underpowered.

For a being that's 10,000 years old when Frosty is at least an eighth grade initiate, I'd say it is. They never figured out how to initiate more than six times?

[Draco18s]

For a being that's 10,000 years old when Frosty is at least an eighth grade initiate, I'd say it is. They never figured out how to initiate more than six times?

Technically they aren't even 1st level initiates as statted. They have 12 base magic.

[toturi]

For a being that's 10,000 years old when Frosty is at least an eighth grade initiate, I'd say it is. They never figured out how to initiate more than six times?

Even if that is true, what is Jane Foster's Magic then? Initiation raises the limit of Magic, does it actually raise Magic itself?

I'd think that a 10000 year old being (with such high Logic and Intuition) would have figured out that focusing on a single attribute has diminishing returns.

[Draco18s]

Even if that is true, what is Jane Foster's Magic then? Initiation raises the limit of Magic, does it actually raise Magic itself?

I'd think that a 10000 year old being (with such high Logic and Intuition) would have figured out that focusing on a single attribute has diminishing returns.

While everyone in SR has figured that out (for the most part) no one in any other game has. Looking at The Other Game, Wizards are frequently depicted as wizened old men.

[Draco18s]

Even if that is true, what is Jane Foster's Magic then? Initiation raises the limit of Magic, does it actually raise Magic itself?

I'd think that a 10000 year old being (with such high Logic and Intuition) would have figured out that focusing on a single attribute has diminishing returns.

While everyone in SR has figured that out (for the most part) no one in any other game has. Looking at The Other Game, Wizards are frequently depicted as wizened old men.

[Sengir]

Not to mention that the great dragon's statted in the book are RIDICULOUSLY underpowered.

I consider those stats to be in relation to a fresh 400BP character. A wizworm who has been around since the Fourth World or even longer will have slightly higher stats

[KarmaInferno]

Sounds like the dragon died because you played him to be a feeble idiot, instead of the crafty supergenius bastards they are supposed to be.

Plus, your dice numbers sound way off.



-karma

[Neraph]

Let me play a simple dragon against your GD anyday, OP, and I'll show you how to play them. When I read things like (these are paraphrased) "They are commonly Initiated," "they should have some karma on-hand to use for abilities," and "they know most spells," I start thinking to myself "Ok, this dragon has six F6 Phyiscal Chameleon spell Quickened with 6 successes each, giving everyone trying to see him or attack him with ranged weapons a -36 dicepool modifier to do so. He also has the same setup for the Combat Sense and Deflection spells, and he cares not about armor since he 1) Won't be seen, and 2) can't be hit."

[MrOramri]

Yes I knew about twist fate and all those other things we where just messing around as I said i wasnt really trying. Just wanted to talk about the car thing meh.

[RedeemerofOgar]

Yes I knew about twist fate and all those other things we where just messing around as I said i wasnt really trying. Just wanted to talk about the car thing meh.

Yeah, the vehicle rules in SR4 are fairly astoundingly bad and unplaytested. I'm still looking for a good ruleset to replace them.

[Falconer]

Car Wars ;P

Actually... that might not be a half bad idea....

[Draco18s]

Car Wars ;P

Actually... that might not be a half bad idea....

I've also run into Road Hogs (not exactly a TMNT expansion) that has very detailed rules (BULLETS IN THE RADIATOR? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) ) but on a cursory glance looked pretty decent and simple enough (obviously adding in the detailed stuff complicates things, but a lot of it was optional or could very easily be made optional).

[Hagga]

Even if that is true, what is Jane Foster's Magic then? Initiation raises the limit of Magic, does it actually raise Magic itself?

I'd think that a 10000 year old being (with such high Logic and Intuition) would have figured out that focusing on a single attribute has diminishing returns.

Right before the "Jane is as powerful as she needs to be" in Dusk it gives her an "Initiate grade of at least eight". I'd think that a 10,000 year old being (with such high Logic and Intuition) would have figured out that being able to squash your average magician who's spent a lifetime studying to get that far is a good thing in a world where you're seen as a meal ticket with a billion trillion dollars. Even some of the feats attributed to them couldn't be achieved without enormous overcasting, and that's just the smaller ones. As it is, they're going to be taking obscene amounts of drain just killing a drone.

[Draco18s]

Right before the "Jane is as powerful as she needs to be" in Dusk it gives her an "Initiate grade of at least eight". I'd think that a 10,000 year old being (with such high Logic and Intuition) would have figured out that being able to squash your average magician who's spent a lifetime studying to get that far is a good thing in a world where you're seen as a meal ticket with a billion trillion dollars. Even some of the feats attributed to them couldn't be achieved without enormous overcasting, and that's just the smaller ones. As it is, they're going to be taking obscene amounts of drain just killing a drone.

New Metamagic:
Ignore Drain (Dragon Only)
Requires: Centering, Quickening, Invoking, Sensing.
An initiate with this feat may, up to a number of times per day equal to their total edge plus initiate level, completely ignore the drain (and sustaining penalty, if any) of any single spell or spirit summoning, binding, or invoking.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Hagga]

New Metamagic:
Ignore Drain (Dragon Only)
Requires: Centering, Quickening, Invoking, Sensing.
An initiate with this feat may, up to a number of times per day equal to their total edge plus initiate level, completely ignore the drain (and sustaining penalty, if any) of any single spell or spirit summoning, binding, or invoking.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

I hate you.

[Warlordtheft]

I recall a fight against a dragon in Maria Mercurial. And the one in Paradise Lost seemed not to be expecting guests.

There was also a dragon you could fight (not a great) in Bottled Demon. That of course dates me...... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

[Draco18s]

I hate you.

My job here....is done!

[toturi]

Right before the "Jane is as powerful as she needs to be" in Dusk it gives her an "Initiate grade of at least eight". I'd think that a 10,000 year old being (with such high Logic and Intuition) would have figured out that being able to squash your average magician who's spent a lifetime studying to get that far is a good thing in a world where you're seen as a meal ticket with a billion trillion dollars. Even some of the feats attributed to them couldn't be achieved without enormous overcasting, and that's just the smaller ones. As it is, they're going to be taking obscene amounts of drain just killing a drone.

Jane isn't an average magican who's spent a lifetime studying to get that far. She is the apprentice of a kickass magician whom most dragons do not look upon as a primary foodgroup. And GDs aren't seen as a meal ticket to a billion trillion dollars either, they are seen as things worth a billion trillion nuyen of trouble even if you manage to kill one.

[Hagga]

No, but your average magician who does not have Harlequin for a mentor, Ehran for a daddy or at the very least be the head of the Benandanti and learn from Schwarzkopf (most accessible route I can think of) is going to spend a life time studying to end up at that point. If they weren't seen as hugely powerful monsters (with a billion trillion dollars) they would be meal tickets, and a few object lessons have shown them to be hugely powerful monsters.

[toturi]

No, but your average magician who does not have Harlequin for a mentor, Ehran for a daddy or at the very least be the head of the Benandanti and learn from Schwarzkopf (most accessible route I can think of) is going to spend a life time studying to end up at that point. If they weren't seen as hugely powerful monsters (with a billion trillion dollars) they would be meal tickets, and a few object lessons have shown them to be hugely powerful monsters.

Your average magician is not going to end up at that point, a lifetime of study or not.

Damien Knight or even any CEO of a AA or any other such sized entity is not looked upon as meal tickets either and those are evidently much less formidable on a personal basis than any GD, some of those guys could be worth more than some GDs. Just because you killed a GD doesn't mean all that PHAT loot will drop from the metaplanes into your bank account.

[Platinum]

Just because you killed a GD doesn't mean all that PHAT loot will drop from the metaplanes into your bank account.

So true Turtle.
I think most people forget that the cool thing about shadowrun is that killing isn't going to advance you like in D&D, most of the time it just gets you into more trouble than you expect. (which is why it should pay)