Dragon ownage? Options

[Godwyn]

Another thing that seems to be lost in the discussion, sidetracked by a player perspective of the sky is the limit so long as I have the karma, is that of potential. There is talk of this mage or that mage having study time enough to get ZOMG POWR LULZ, but everyone has a limit. No matter how much I work out, I will never have the massive muscles of a body builder, it is just not in my potential (excluding muscle augmentation or the like).

An example is also the guy mentioned in Dunkelzahn's will, who I can never remember his name. He is mentioned as the most powerfully magical person in the world. Straight up. So no matter the amount of study and training, no one in SR canon can exceed, or even equal, that. At the time anyways.

Also, how much karma do you think Dragons have to spend just fixing themselves up after a 5,000 year nap? Muscle atrophy and brain malaise probably kick after a only a few centuries of sleep. So would the dragons, know another nap is coming, save up karma to get a head start out in the next phase, or just spend all of it and hope to gain enough after awakening.

[Red_Cap]

Or, as exceedingly magical beings, do they even suffer from muscle atrophy during their sleep? After all, not all of a dragon's physical abilities are derived from its physical Attributes. Example: western dragons don't actually use their wings to fly.

[Draco18s]

Example: western dragons don't actually use their wings to fly.

Better example: eastern dragons don't have wings and still fly.

[Red_Cap]

Yes, thank you. I was trying to avoid the blindingly obvious.

[Hagga]

Another thing that seems to be lost in the discussion, sidetracked by a player perspective of the sky is the limit so long as I have the karma, is that of potential. There is talk of this mage or that mage having study time enough to get ZOMG POWR LULZ, but everyone has a limit. No matter how much I work out, I will never have the massive muscles of a body builder, it is just not in my potential (excluding muscle augmentation or the like).

An example is also the guy mentioned in Dunkelzahn's will, who I can never remember his name. He is mentioned as the most powerfully magical person in the world. Straight up. So no matter the amount of study and training, no one in SR canon can exceed, or even equal, that. At the time anyways.

Also, how much karma do you think Dragons have to spend just fixing themselves up after a 5,000 year nap? Muscle atrophy and brain malaise probably kick after a only a few centuries of sleep. So would the dragons, know another nap is coming, save up karma to get a head start out in the next phase, or just spend all of it and hope to gain enough after awakening.

Harlequin, the IMmortal Elf. A nd you can have the muscles of a bodybuilder, incidently. You won't have 22 inch biceps and 38 inch thighs, but you can get it nicely in proportion for your body and large. It just takes the right training program and the right diet.

[Draco18s]

Yes, thank you. I was trying to avoid the blindingly obvious.

Well, I could have gone and looked up the math that showed that a dragon over 5 meters long would be incapable of flight, due to the fact that in order to have enough wing surface area, the bones would snap under the weight.

[Saint Sithney]

Really look at most peoples lives, how much of your life is dedicated to constant improvement and how much is dedicated to getting by as a slacker.

Slack really is the ultimate treasure to hoard.

[Draco18s]

Slack really is the ultimate treasure to hoard.

I....am going to forward that to someone, who uses the signature "The true gold of a dragon's hoard is wisdom."

[Godwyn]

Harlequin, the IMmortal Elf. A nd you can have the muscles of a bodybuilder, incidently. You won't have 22 inch biceps and 38 inch thighs, but you can get it nicely in proportion for your body and large. It just takes the right training program and the right diet.

Exactly. I can and do work out, but my maximum muscle mass is not enough to bench 300 lbs, and never will be, I do not have the physique for it. Which is the point that you also make as well. No matter what, there is a maximum threshold that I can not exceed. Shadowrun as a system tends to ignore this, but this discussion long ago left the realm of what the system accounts for.

Magic atrophy then? As the mana level drops significantly as well.

[Hagga]

Exactly. I can and do work out, but my maximum muscle mass is not enough to bench 300 lbs, and never will be, I do not have the physique for it. Which is the point that you also make as well. No matter what, there is a maximum threshold that I can not exceed. Shadowrun as a system tends to ignore this, but this discussion long ago left the realm of what the system accounts for.

Magic atrophy then? As the mana level drops significantly as well.

Magic is just the ability to handle it. Channel, if you will. And you can bench "300lbs" with the right amount of effort and training. I squat 240kg for 6 reps - I'm only a little over six feet, I do not take steroids, or any of the other crap and I'm nowhere near my "genetic potential". I am not some monster with GIGANTIC QUADS, HEAD FOR THE HILLS BEFORE THEY EAT US but it is the upper limits of human potential that you need to worry about which "300lbs" is nowhere near.

[Ascalaphus]

We seem to assuming that dragons stay in the "advancement cage"; the limits and rules that make sure PCs can't advance too easily, without working hard for further improvement.

But what if dragons find an escape from the "cage"? Something like a Steal Skills spell, that allows them to take experience from others for themselves. It would also give them even more reason to employ lots of proxy agents, putting them in harm's way to make sure they earn lots of karma to nibble off. Don't deal with dragons.

Or bargaining with free spirits that can transfer karma. I'm sure dragons can offer people something worthwhile (survival, protection, wealth..)

Maybe those memory crystals are a workaround; by storing part of your mind in a crystal, you make enough space to stay mentally agile and fresh.

Or studying really really hard; with their intellect, they could take a shot at staying completely up to date on all technological development.



It gets harder when they're trying to study something like Magic, where they themselves are so far ahead that there's no one else left to teach them anything. But there's always the Metaplanes.. *Cue the Plot Device theme music*

[Platinum]

Won't many dragons, especially GD's have worshipers? Isn' t that a magical karma fountain? Fly over a primitive town, have 100 natives worship you for an hour or two, perform sacrifices in your honour and walk away with 100 karma?

I don't see Karma as anything more than a game mechanic which helps with advancement. Skills and knowledge skills would be broken up in the millions to really reflect reality so we cannot expect a simplified game mechanic to apply everywhere. Karma is for players not for NPCs.

As for the stupor of sleeping for 5000 years, if I was a Dragon or GD, I would insulate my hibernation home with something that would sustain me. There would also make sure there was some kind of stasis spell in place.

---

Edit:
Personally I think there are two major camps.

Camp A: that believes that dragons are basically deities for shadowrun, and unless you are running an epic campaign where you have a team 2000 karma each with 20 int /will you won't be touching them.

Camp B: believe that dragons are just a powerful sentient race with resources. They are killable, but because of their wealth are very difficult to reach.

I am in camp B that think that too many game mechanics like "twist fate" have been put in to overpower Dragons. What boggles me is why. Personally I don't think that any shadowrun team would be getting to someone like Damien Knight without some other major player use them as pawns. So why would dragons be any different?

[Ascalaphus]

I like your Camp B, but I'd like to offer a defense of the Twist Fate power.

Dragons are smart. Really really smart. They've prepared for everything. So much so, that they anticipated nearly any use of Edge or success by a PC, and have some counter-plan. I wouldn't use Twist Fate as a random fuck-you ability then; come up with a way the dragon's Crazy Prepared ability was used to frustrate the PC's success. Some pre-set defense, or special unexpected maneuver the dragon pulled off to counteract things. Since you can only do that so many times before even your Crazy Prepared defenses and surprises run out/cease to surprise, it costs Edge.

So why do it that way? Because as a GM you're fighting a mental battle against the players, and there's more of them, trying to outsmart you. It's hard to play a being with mental attributes in the 7+ range, since by definition we don't have those. Twist Fate and such allow you to insert things as needed, to reflect things the smart dragon would have known but you didn't.
Also, because a GD isn't supposed to die too easily, and a lucky shot by a player can still do that. It's okay that the group can defeat a dragon, with planning and luck, but it's wrong if they have any Edge remaining by the end of the fight, or if one or two lucky shots are all they need.

It's somewhat the same with Elders in Vampire, or uber-smart NPCs in any game really. They need a generic ability to pull a countermeasure out of their ass for whatever PCs throw at them. Maybe some sort of Logic+Intuition check to have prepared something for that particular circumstance (that you as GM never imagined, but a smart dragon would.)

In Vampire, this issue is harped on again and again; the Elders are prepared for anything.. except cutting edge tech. In such a setting, you could let the NPC make an Intellect+Skill check against whatever the PCs are using; successes indicate level of preparedness.

[Platinum]

I like your Camp B, but I'd like to offer a defense of the Twist Fate power.

Dragons are smart. Really really smart. They've prepared for everything. So much so, that they anticipated nearly any use of Edge or success by a PC, and have some counter-plan. I wouldn't use Twist Fate as a random fuck-you ability then; come up with a way the dragon's Crazy Prepared ability was used to frustrate the PC's success. Some pre-set defense, or special unexpected maneuver the dragon pulled off to counteract things. Since you can only do that so many times before even your Crazy Prepared defenses and surprises run out/cease to surprise, it costs Edge.

So why do it that way? Because as a GM you're fighting a mental battle against the players, and there's more of them, trying to outsmart you. It's hard to play a being with mental attributes in the 7+ range, since by definition we don't have those. Twist Fate and such allow you to insert things as needed, to reflect things the smart dragon would have known but you didn't.
Also, because a GD isn't supposed to die too easily, and a lucky shot by a player can still do that. It's okay that the group can defeat a dragon, with planning and luck, but it's wrong if they have any Edge remaining by the end of the fight, or if one or two lucky shots are all they need.

It's somewhat the same with Elders in Vampire, or uber-smart NPCs in any game really. They need a generic ability to pull a countermeasure out of their ass for whatever PCs throw at them. Maybe some sort of Logic+Intuition check to have prepared something for that particular circumstance (that you as GM never imagined, but a smart dragon would.)

In Vampire, this issue is harped on again and again; the Elders are prepared for anything.. except cutting edge tech. In such a setting, you could let the NPC make an Intellect+Skill check against whatever the PCs are using; successes indicate level of preparedness.

I really appreciate the insight. Your point is well worded. I guess my issue is with what I am interpreting with twist of faith. I guess that I have learned the hard way, that no matter how smart you really are, and I have worked with at least 5 people with IQ's over 160 is that you can't think of everything, and I am cynical about GM's defaulting to twisting fate instead of letting a brilliant plan being a possibility a dragon would not have seen coming. Since I don't have 4e, I can't guess at what the power is, and I am assuming the worst from GMs. I do like the idea of a "Logic+Intuition check" before a twist of fate, but I guess I see GD's as just really cool and powerful NPC's an not integral plot devices.

If for instance, somehow PC's got their hand on a thor shot, and managed to get it around defenses to nuke a limo that Damian or (Dragon meeting a dignitary) was in, I am not sure if I would allow twisting of fate. I would have a dragon have multiple quickened spells at least force 8 on him/her, spirits up the wazoo, satellite/drone surveillance, and roll an intelligence gathering roll every time the PC's mentioned the targets name, to see if anything gets back to the dragon along the way, but if the PC's get a face to face, and I don't have anything on paper/in my mind for preparations I would let the dragon die. Then heap on the pressure as 1000 follower zeolots now work to avenge their object of affection after the fact.

[Ascalaphus]

By the book, Twist Fate lets a dragon do two things:

- Spend a point of Edge to cancel the effect of a point of Edge spent by someone in LOS, but the burning of permanent Edge
- Spend a point of Edge to force someone in LOS to re-roll all the dice on a check that scored a hit

This is of course just the mechanical effect; in your example, the dragon can't use it to stop the Thor shot (no LOS). He can still use Edge to escape/resist damage somehow. (Alamais)

How you implement the actual use of Edge/Twist Fate is another matter; maybe he just flew off that moment, taking him out of the ground zero area, so that he could survive, albeit wounded.

In face to face confrontation, you can represent Twist Fate as the large piles of powers dragons have that haven't been written down/discovered, as well as contingency plans and extraordinary abilities of improvisation.

Some examples:
- the dragon used it's frightful presence to distract the character for a moment, causing his focus to falter
- the dragon used luck-altering metamagics to counteract your sudden lucky shot
- the dragon is used to people trying to hit it with last-ditch efforts, and knows how they behave. It could see your effort from a mile away.


However, more emphasis is really needed on how to showcase the dragon's level of smartness, experience and preparation. Hence the Intuition and Logic check idea. Hits would enable the dragon to:
- Guess the PCs' plan, from the way they're moving and looking around
- Know them by name, because it's agents have been monitoring these potentially dangerous people for a while now
- Determine their physical and mental condition
- See their weaknesses
- Spot random events in advance, that it can then use against the PCs
- Know what to say to cause them doubt and confusion, anguish, emotional pain, triggering of any Negative Qualities you can think of etcetera
- For large amounts of hits: he knew they were coming, and has seeded the area with traps/allies that the PCs couldn't reasonably expect to be there
- For large amounts of hits: he knew they were coming, and he's left quietly, leaving a Secret Lair Self-Destruct running, with about a minute on the timer; it'll detonate in half that time
- Take any precaution commonly mentioned in Evil Overlord Advice lists you can find on the internet
- Explain to the PCs how they've always been working for the dragon, even now, because they're helping it fake it's own death for a while
- Explain to the PCs which enemy of the dragon really manipulated them into wanting to attack the dragon in the first place

Any of these explanations can be true or not; if you simply decide at the drop of a hat that it's true, just retroactively make it be true all this time along. Rewrite history to suit the dragon.


You do need to be careful with this of course; if you go overboard, it'll be like railroading and invulnerable enemies all over again.

[Draco18s]

Heck, we could even say that Twist Fate is a metamagic ability (great dragon only). Some of its uses require the dragon spend a simple action in order to use, so the dragon has to have don something in a measurable amount of time that causes the effect.