.458 SOCOM, Hi-Power assualt rifle ammo Options

[MJBurrage]

Thought all those interested in gun, and caliber in Shadowrun would like the following.

Some special forces guys were lamenting the 5.56mm round's lack of stopping power. However, For a variety of reason, we are not ditching the M-16 and the related weapons fielded by other NATO nations.

So a munitions and firearm company decided to scale up the ammo that could be fired by an existing 5.56 weapon; and the .458 SOCOM was born.

• Wikipedia article
• Military.com article

P.S. For those wondering, the company named it SOCOM after the guys who thought it up, not because the actual Special Operations COMand ordered it.

[Saint Sithney]

Man, that big fat mother must lose accuracy and drop like nobody's business. It looks like a shotgun slug.

[Chrysalis]

When you want better stopping power the 7.62x51mm NATO round has all the right energy characteristics. Anything more and you need a 12.7mm or a 20mm, which demands mechanized and/or aerial support.

In urban combat, it is not about stopping power, but ergonomics of the rifle, mechanized support, and body armor. Maximum distances are quite short, 300m for a machinegun nest and 150m for most assault rifles. Heavier more armored targets will demand explosives, grenades, and missile systems.

[kzt]

7.62 nato doesn't fit in an AR-15 type of weapon.

[Wounded Ronin]

7.62 nato doesn't fit in an AR-15 type of weapon.

AR 10?

http://www.armalite.com/Categories.aspx?Ca...a0-49488ec48776

[Manunancy]

That thing was built with to meet two requirements :
* stopping power
* minimal modifications on an M-16 to shoot it.

It does apparently well in these two departments, but obviously other aspects had to suffer for it. The 'can be fired from an M-16 with a little modifications as possible' condition is the most severe limitation there.

[Generico]

Actually there was a third requirement:

It needed to be effective with subsonic loadings. (the standard load is supersonic though)

[nezumi]

That last one is the most interesting. Sound suppressed M-16s?

[MJBurrage]

As has been pointed out, if you want more damage and need range, the 7.62mm is the round of choice, until you need to scale up again to something like a Berret.

However most modern fighting is much closer than sniping range, so the presumably worse ballistics of the .458 SOCOM do not come in to play.

What does matter if the hype is to be believed, is that this round:

• Does more damage than a 5.56mm. (about the same energy as 7.76mm)
• Usable in existing 5.56mm weapons with only the receiver/barrel needing to be changed.
• Uses existing 5.56mm clips, albeit in a single instead of staggered stack. (~ 1/2 original capacity)
• Can be silenced not just suppressed since one round is fired in place of three and may be subsonic.

In Shadowrun terms, a barrel change converts a supersonic "6P -1" weapon into an subsonic "7P –" weapon. So a relatively loud 8P burst becomes a quiet 7P SA shot. You also get more shots (compared to bursts)

[Smokeskin]

However most modern fighting is much closer than sniping range, so the presumably worse ballistics of the .458 SOCOM do not come in to play.

What does matter if the hype is to be believed, is that this round:

• Does more damage than a 5.56mm. (about the same energy as 7.76mm)
• Usable in existing 5.56mm weapons with only the receiver/barrel needing to be changed.
• Uses existing 5.56mm clips, albeit in a single instead of staggered stack. (~ 1/2 original capacity)
• Can be silenced not just suppressed since one round is fired in place of three and may be subsonic.

A wide variety of rounds cover your first three points, with much better external ballistics and ammo capacity, and probably better terminal ballistics too (call it "stopping power" if you must).

Just about the only advantage to this round seem to be the subsonic option (and granted, at subsonic speeds the extra mass is an advantage).

[Adarael]

I would very much like to test fire this round and see how it performs...

[FlakJacket]

7.62 NATO doesn't fit in an AR-15 type of weapon.

IIRC don't the HK416 and HK417 work as a new upper receiver and barrel that just drops into an M4 in 5.56 and 7.62 caliber respectively? Now I don't know about the ballistics and stuff or which of the two bullets is better but unless the .458 SOCOM is a massive improvement over the 7.62 I'd of expected the 7.62 to be more handy since it's already in widespread use, although this is SOCOM so price and logistics aren't really the main priority.

[DWC]

IIRC don't the HK416 and HK417 work as a new upper receiver and barrel that just drops into an M4 in 5.56 and 7.62 caliber respectively? Now I don't know about the ballistics and stuff or which of the two bullets is better but unless the .458 SOCOM is a massive improvement over the 7.62 I'd of expected the 7.62 to be more handy since it's already in widespread use, although this is SOCOM so price and logistics aren't really the main priority.

If logistics mattered, someone would have gotten the SR-47 to work.

[Chrysalis]

Another round that can be placed next to the other gun show circuit rounds. If you need stopping power go for the 7.62x51mm, if you need a quieted round, use a .22 or 9mm.

The SOCOM part is just a gimmick to sell a dud round.

[Adarael]

Another round that can be placed next to the other gun show circuit rounds. If you need stopping power go for the 7.62x51mm, if you need a quieted round, use a .22 or 9mm.

The SOCOM part is just a gimmick to sell a dud round.

Doesn't mean it wouldn't be fun to play with, though!

[kzt]

IIRC don't the HK416 and HK417 work as a new upper receiver and barrel that just drops into an M4 in 5.56 and 7.62 caliber respectively? Now I don't know about the ballistics and stuff or which of the two bullets is better but unless the .458 SOCOM is a massive improvement over the 7.62 I'd of expected the 7.62 to be more handy since it's already in widespread use, although this is SOCOM so price and logistics aren't really the main priority.

No, a 7.62mm NATO round is too long to fit in the magazine well. You need a different lower, which kind of defeats the purpose.

[Smokeskin]

6.5mm grendel or 6.8mm SPC does the trick though.

[Wounded Ronin]

6.5mm grendel or 6.8mm SPC does the trick though.

Someday I would like to try a .50 Beowulf.

[Smokeskin]

Someday I would like to try a .50 Beowulf.

Yeah, like to try. Like to bring to a firefight, not so much.

[Wounded Ronin]

Yeah, like to try. Like to bring to a firefight, not so much.

What's there not to like about what appears to be a gigantic pistol round fired out of a carbine? You can pretend you're a frontiersman with your lever-action Winchester fighting off hoardes of braves.

[Chrysalis]

As has been pointed out, if you want more damage and need range, the 7.62mm is the round of choice, until you need to scale up again to something like a Berret.

However most modern fighting is much closer than sniping range, so the presumably worse ballistics of the .458 SOCOM do not come in to play.

What does matter if the hype is to be believed, is that this round:

• Does more damage than a 5.56mm. (about the same energy as 7.76mm)
• Usable in existing 5.56mm weapons with only the receiver/barrel needing to be changed.
• Uses existing 5.56mm clips, albeit in a single instead of staggered stack. (~ 1/2 original capacity)
• Can be silenced not just suppressed since one round is fired in place of three and may be subsonic.

In Shadowrun terms, a barrel change converts a supersonic "6P -1" weapon into an subsonic "7P –" weapon. So a relatively loud 8P burst becomes a quiet 7P SA shot. You also get more shots (compared to bursts)

In real life terms I see more jammings, both due to magazine and round alignment and the bolt carrier action, not to mention using a heavier round will also place ancillary stress on other parts of the rifle.

Again, the real question is: what do you need extra power for?

[nezumi]

Because the 5.56 is crap?

[Crusher Bob]

Big slow rounds like this are great both for short range penetration of cover and for short and medium ranged suppressed performance. High velocity rifle rounds don't tend to penetrate cover that well until they slow down some.

Here's a sample for 7.62 NATO
Penetration of wood (pine)
~25M ~330mm penetration
~100M ~460mm penetration
~200M ~1,040mm penetration

[kzt]

I think that's actually due to reduced yaw, not reduced velocity.

[Wounded Ronin]

Again, the real question is: what do you need extra power for?

Usually for fighting the Tank.