Thought all those interested in gun, and caliber in Shadowrun would like the following.

Some special forces guys were lamenting the 5.56mm round's lack of stopping power. However, For a variety of reason, we are not ditching the M-16 and the related weapons fielded by other NATO nations.

So a munitions and firearm company decided to scale up the ammo that could be fired by an existing 5.56 weapon; and the .458 SOCOM was born.

• Wikipedia article
• Military.com article

P.S. For those wondering, the company named it SOCOM after the guys who thought it up, not because the actual Special Operations COMand ordered it.

Man, that big fat mother must lose accuracy and drop like nobody's business. It looks like a shotgun slug.

When you want better stopping power the 7.62x51mm NATO round has all the right energy characteristics. Anything more and you need a 12.7mm or a 20mm, which demands mechanized and/or aerial support.

In urban combat, it is not about stopping power, but ergonomics of the rifle, mechanized support, and body armor. Maximum distances are quite short, 300m for a machinegun nest and 150m for most assault rifles. Heavier more armored targets will demand explosives, grenades, and missile systems.

7.62 nato doesn't fit in an AR-15 type of weapon.

AR 10?

http://www.armalite.com/Categories.aspx?Ca...a0-49488ec48776

That thing was built with to meet two requirements :
* stopping power
* minimal modifications on an M-16 to shoot it.

It does apparently well in these two departments, but obviously other aspects had to suffer for it. The 'can be fired from an M-16 with a little modifications as possible' condition is the most severe limitation there.

Actually there was a third requirement:

It needed to be effective with subsonic loadings. (the standard load is supersonic though)

That last one is the most interesting. Sound suppressed M-16s?

As has been pointed out, if you want more damage and need range, the 7.62mm is the round of choice, until you need to scale up again to something like a Berret.

However most modern fighting is much closer than sniping range, so the presumably worse ballistics of the .458 SOCOM do not come in to play.

What does matter if the hype is to be believed, is that this round:

• Does more damage than a 5.56mm. (about the same energy as 7.76mm)
• Usable in existing 5.56mm weapons with only the receiver/barrel needing to be changed.
• Uses existing 5.56mm clips, albeit in a single instead of staggered stack. (~ 1/2 original capacity)
• Can be silenced not just suppressed since one round is fired in place of three and may be subsonic.

In Shadowrun terms, a barrel change converts a supersonic "6P -1" weapon into an subsonic "7P –" weapon. So a relatively loud 8P burst becomes a quiet 7P SA shot. You also get more shots (compared to bursts)

A wide variety of rounds cover your first three points, with much better external ballistics and ammo capacity, and probably better terminal ballistics too (call it "stopping power" if you must).

Just about the only advantage to this round seem to be the subsonic option (and granted, at subsonic speeds the extra mass is an advantage).

I would very much like to test fire this round and see how it performs...

IIRC don't the HK416 and HK417 work as a new upper receiver and barrel that just drops into an M4 in 5.56 and 7.62 caliber respectively? Now I don't know about the ballistics and stuff or which of the two bullets is better but unless the .458 SOCOM is a massive improvement over the 7.62 I'd of expected the 7.62 to be more handy since it's already in widespread use, although this is SOCOM so price and logistics aren't really the main priority.

If logistics mattered, someone would have gotten the SR-47 to work.

Another round that can be placed next to the other gun show circuit rounds. If you need stopping power go for the 7.62x51mm, if you need a quieted round, use a .22 or 9mm.

The SOCOM part is just a gimmick to sell a dud round.

Doesn't mean it wouldn't be fun to play with, though!

No, a 7.62mm NATO round is too long to fit in the magazine well. You need a different lower, which kind of defeats the purpose.

6.5mm grendel or 6.8mm SPC does the trick though.

Someday I would like to try a .50 Beowulf.

Yeah, like to try. Like to bring to a firefight, not so much.

What's there not to like about what appears to be a gigantic pistol round fired out of a carbine? You can pretend you're a frontiersman with your lever-action Winchester fighting off hoardes of braves.

In real life terms I see more jammings, both due to magazine and round alignment and the bolt carrier action, not to mention using a heavier round will also place ancillary stress on other parts of the rifle.

Again, the real question is: what do you need extra power for?

Because the 5.56 is crap?

Big slow rounds like this are great both for short range penetration of cover and for short and medium ranged suppressed performance. High velocity rifle rounds don't tend to penetrate cover that well until they slow down some.

Here's a sample for 7.62 NATO
Penetration of wood (pine)
~25M ~330mm penetration
~100M ~460mm penetration
~200M ~1,040mm penetration

I think that's actually due to reduced yaw, not reduced velocity.

Usually for fighting the Tank.

Also the real world difference in power between 5.56 and 7.62/.458 (the latter two have the same energy) is larger than the related SR4 damage codes imply.

SR1 – SR3 had too big a difference between light pistols (modeled after 9mm designs) and heavy pistols (modeled after .45 designs). SR4 has too small a difference between rifle classes.

Low ammo capacity, lower accuracy and range, massive recoil.

Right. It's supposed to be like a more agile shotgun.

They use it because they need something that will mulch the guy that the business end of the rifle is pointed at with minimal ammunition spent, many articles and testimonies have said again and again that unless its a aimed shot it takes multiple hits from a 5.56mm NATO round. They probably care little that it kicks like a mule, or the rifle cant put a whole mag down range in a blink of the eye. They care if its going to make the guy on the other end dead or not get up if he some how lives from being shot in the gut or chest with this thing. Its not a sniper round either so it does not need sub 1 MOA accuracy, all that matters is that it can hit in or around where the cross hairs are with decent competency.

And if they make it a subsonic round, then the kick will be reduced greatly and make it a great nearly silent killing round so Special Operations, less noise they make the easier life is for them. Russians did the same with there 7.62x39mm M47 round, they necked it out and put a big heavy 9mm projectile in it and made it a subsonic round for there special operations units. I would tend to think it is very effective as Russians like there stuff to work, well for there fighting equipment anyways. Not sure about there normal consumer products, but that's a different subject all togather.

Of course this assumes that someone other than desk "operators" actually buys guns chambered for this. I don't remember ever seeing anything suggesting that this has actually been used by the USG, though anything that looks vaguely interesting has probably had one or two bought and living in an arms room somewhere.

Uhh...killing people?

Probably has been tested out in some missions that they don't let us the public know about, the US Special Forces are usually given a decent amount of wiggle room when it comes to picking out weapons for there missions within reason this big heavy round probably has cut its teeth on a few poor slags in the field. You can test a round on ballistic gel and get a good idea, but I think using it in field is best. Japanese had a rating system for there swords, they would hack bodies(Some times live in some accounts) up with the blades and see what it could cut though and rate it that way. The best swords where rated to slice through 4-5 torses with ease. But anyways its a known fact that US Army Rangers are allowed to pretty much pick and choose what they want to be armed with, probably the same with Delta Operators. I'm not to sure about the SEAL but they are probably under the same rules too, as long as its with in reason and mission parameters its all good.

Big heavy rounds are good at knocking people on there ass and incapacitating them better then a smaller round, which is good in my book as you can only carry so many rounds before being weighed down.

I'm pretty sure that's an urband legend/myth, but my cursory search of the internet was inconclusive.



Completely false. Rangers are issued the same weapons as regular light infantry and are NOT allowed to pick and choose.




CAG, DEVGRU and most other special operations units do have some flexibility in what they bring to the field, but most of their gear is either what they train with on a regular basis, or theater specific (like toting AKs in East Africa to blend with the locals).

You can't train with everything all of the time, unless maybe you are an 18Bravo...




False. People falling down after getting shot is all about psychology and shot placement, not about "big bullets knocking people down."




Time do do some actual research, old boy, lest you look like a tool.

I learned about that from playing Jagged Alliance 2 version 1.13. 9x39 subsonic rounds make me want to drink neat vodka.

This legend evolved during the Edo period when the buke were bureaucrats first and warriors... well, not even second. Like third or fourth. Much like the Hagakure's rantings on what a samurai should be, it's an invention ex post facto to add mystique to something that wasn't all that mysterious. It grew out of tameshigiri practices in the myriad schools of the Edo period, and many teachers said, "Now, back in the WILD OLD DAYS, we used to do this with prisoners." Which is not only totally not recorded in any histories ever (as a sword test, anyway - they still often executed people with a sword) but is bullshit on the face of it because:
1) Why the hell would you take prisoners just to test swords on them, when triage would be cheaper, and ransom more valuable?
2) When would you have enough prisoners to make this even remotely a plausible option, when you could - again - ransom the buke and kuge back, and put the ashigaru to work fighting your enemies or tilling your fields?
3) If the bodies were dead already, you sure as shit wouldn't want to get near them as a samurai, because that shit's unclean. Let the burakumin do that kind of thing.

Occasionally they'd test swords on people and cadavers in the Edo period, but never before that.



I don't think there's any reason to be rude about correcting someone.

I am not in the armed forces either so I have to go with hear say, wiki and what old family friends can give, one source I got the information from is a book called "US Army Ranger 1983-2002." After a little more reading it was the older Ranger units before the latest reforming that got to choose and pick there weapons. So I was half wrong there and half right. And to tell the truth, got no intention of join as long as we are stuck in that crap hole called Iraq.. But thats just me and will leave it at that, that's drama best avoided.



From shock, disruption of flesh and/or pain either way large and heavy caliber rounds plop most to the ground when hit in or around the main core of the body better then lighter weight ammo.

And I'm no tool, just going off what I know. Live and learn.

That is exactly right. I was thinking a lot more in terms of the modern Rangers. I'll give you that one.




Well, I'm sure the US Army appreciates that.




I'd like to see something that backs up that assumption. As far as small arms goes, every study I've read pretty much debunks the idea that bigger caliber rounds are better at "knocking people down". A CNS hit from an M855/5.56x45mm will "drop" a target to the ground much more reliably than a lower torso hit from from a .338 Lapua. It's all about shot placement and what the target's perceptions/belief's are. A not particularly motivated attacker who watches lots of TV/Movies will probably promptly fall down from an extremity hit from a .22LR round, while an impoverished militiaman who expects paradise in the next life will probably take MANY 7.62x51mm NATO rounds before he drops.




Yeah, I was out of line with that comment. You have my apologies. I need to stay off the boards after having a bad day at work.

The .458 SOCOM is interesting, but I would not want to lug that thing around with any amount of that heavy ammunition... give me a 5.56 rifle anyday...

For sheer power though, how about buying a 2-Bore rifle... now that is True Power...

Rifle Weight 26 pounds
Cartridge Length: 4.5"
3500 Grain Bullet
1.025" Diameter Bullet
Taylor Value of 825
24 Drams of Blackpowder (Smokeless powder may also be used for easier cleanup, and heavier loads)
Foot lbs. of Energy: Approaching 15,000 ft/lbs. Energy at the muzzle

8x the powder charge of a 12 Gauge Slug and 8x the weight of a Brenneke 12-Gauge Slug
Double the Energy of a .600 Nitro Express 900 grain bullet at 1950 fps.

I bet it kicks like a mule too...
I would prefer mine in a double barrelled variety... Custom made by Giles Whittome of Cambridge England

Keep the Faith

Sounds like a prime candidate for over-the-top pimping... Definitively more a gun to gloat over than anything usable. I wonder how it would compare with the heaviest anti-material riffles (most in .50 but some using 14.5 or even 20mm ammo)

Just to let you know, a number of Dumpshockers here are, in fact, in the Armed Forces or retired from there, or otherwise have extensive personal experience with firearms.

You can't get everything out of a book.


-karma

Well it can be (if the bullet is large and fast enough), unfortunately there is this "action = reaction" thing which would make the shooter suffer the same effect...

The bullet is between 4 and 5 times the weight of a .50x99, the muzzle energy is roughly the same meaning it has roughly half the speed. This would translate to roughly twice the recoil in a gun of similar weight and design for the 2-bore (ouch !).

The 14.5 Russian packs about 50% more energy (22.000 to 24.000 ft-lb).

20 mm anti-material rifles energy varies with the variant of 20 mm they use, the smaller ones (20x82) are between .50 BMG and 14.5, the bigger are a bit more powerful than the 14.5, but the slower, bigger projectile allow for grater exotic payloads (explosive, incendiary...).

Some guns can deliver enough momentum to knock people down on a solid hit. .50 BMG is where that kind of momentum transfer starts. If someone can fire it from the hip or shoulder it can't have that kind of effect.

Barring, of course, unusual ammunition such as beanbag/pancake rounds or other such stuff. Or being shot in the leg while running, or somthing. BUt even then you're talking 20mm or so.

the round, like the .50BMG(Which CAN be shoulder or hip fired, albeit inaccurately), can cause SO much damage that the target will fall anyway. When those .50s hit, a limb hit will cause amputation, and a torso hit can possibly cause a person to split into multiple pieces.

There has got to be a certain point where the body just gets so mangled it's stopped. According to a Vietnam War memoir I read, "Green Knight, Red Mourning" if you dump a 20 round mag of 7.62 NATO from a M14 on someone at point blank range, it breaks him into kibble and he falls. The author was describing how mangled the guy is at that point.

From reading Vietnam War memoirs it seems like sometimes one hit drops someone, and nobody seems to survive more than a few direct hits. Sometimes someone gets "stitched" across the chest by automatic fire (caliber/round unknown but presumably small arms) and that seems to make the vast majority of people die really fast.

Yeah, but since I cannot own a 14.5 or 20mm weapon, the 2-Bore is interesting... especially in a double barrelled option... probably costs around the $20,000+ mark (way out of my limited budget) as it is a custom weapon from a respected master gunsmith in England... but it is indeed a pretty weapon... I would love to fire it at least once in my life...

Keep the Faith

With a good fist hit you can also knock somebody over without falling on your back
Whether somebody is knocked down or not also depends on the posture and a lot of other things, but the energy that acts on both persons is the same. So a round which knocks somebody over regardless of how sure his footing is would definitely do the same to the shooter.


@Starmage: Those magic properties of the .50 BMG are mostly legend.

I mostly agree. They come from vietnam tales from people who are grandfathers by now telling old war stories. BUT! There is no limit to the amount of gore videos that you can find on the internet now thanks to american soldiers in Iraq with cameras.

Well I also go shooting and my .30-06 bolt action rifle(Remington Model 710) with 163 grain soft points I use in my rifle tell or shows me heavier grain bullets by whatever mechanism of force you want to judge with is exerting on the object is a lot more then what my friends .223 rifle which was also using soft point hunting rounds was doing. His rifle was taking small chips from the solid concrete block while mine was blowing small craters in it and making it rock and even slide about, so it is fair to say that it is a good educated guess that a .458 SOCOM weighing in at 200+ grains with what looks like rather large surface area would have greater effect on the human body then a 5.56mm NATO weighing in at 63 grains? But I am not the one out there in the field, so my experiences are rather limited on what they could do to the guy on the business end of the rifle. I assume enough out there either feel and/or know the 5.56mm lacks enough terminal effect, because they are looking into 6.5mm and 6.8mm projectiles that offer better punch. Again, do correct me if I am wrong here.