Hardened armor, Just does not seem that effective. Options

[Omenowl]

I would keep the edge attribute for summoned spirits only as a buffer to prevent abuse by the summoner. The spirit may only use edge to prevent abuse by the player.

[Karoline]

For some reason I can't see spirits with only F hardened armor and 1/2F attributes and skills being a threat to anyone better equipped than a homeless guy.

I mean Joe Security Guard with a heavy pistol is going to be rolling 3 Agi + 3 Pistols + 2 Smartgun with maybe +2 specilized. That's 10 dice against reaction 3 (On a F6 spirit) which means an average of 2 net hits. So 7P -1 damage against 6 armor reduced to 5... so damage goes through no trouble, and spirit only gets 8 dice to resist with, average 2 hits so spirit takes 5P damage. Joe Security Guard takes a second shot and kills the spirit in one round.... Yeah, I somehow don't see spirits at this level being very viable. They can still perform plenty of other cool tasks for you, but they're going to be fairly helpless in combat.

[Draco18s]

So 7P -1 damage against 6 armor reduced to 5... so damage goes through no trouble, and spirit only gets 8 dice to resist with, average 2 hits so spirit takes 5P damage.

1 damage. 6P damage minus 5 autohits from hardened armor. With the 3 body dice, it has good odds to reduce that to 0.

If I understand his rules correctly.

[Zormal]

I made a spreadsheet to check different values. RAW average damage is calculated with DV - (Magic x 2) / 3. Please let me know if my fever got the better of my brain. I'm not feeling very logical atm (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

For some reason I'd like to up the amount of automatic hits a bit. Maybe it's because I think it's a shame attacks of will are never used anymore. Maybe Magic x 1.5 automatic hits would work without making spirits totally indestructible?

I rounded 1.5x down so that F3 wouldn't get a bigger jump in automatic hits on top of an extra power.

CODE

Force 1 2 3 4 5 6  7  8  9 10
Armor 1 3 4 6 7 9 10 12 13 15

[Karoline]

1 damage. 6P damage minus 5 autohits from hardened armor. With the 3 body dice, it has good odds to reduce that to 0.

If I understand his rules correctly.

Oh, right, duh.

[Shinobi Killfist]

At lower Force (up to 3), it makes little noticeable difference - especially when the group uses Armor Penetration.

At higher Force, the difference can become quite pronounced, but there are several advantages to it.

• Armor Penetration becomes twice as effective against spirits (rough approximation).
• Spirits become easier to damage due to smaller Armor values & removal of all-or-nothing.
• Spirits take less damage than Rules as Written, on average, if a weapon fails to completely overcome the Immunity (assuming the attack would damage the spirit at all, RAW)

This change does two things - it effectively makes Hardened Armor more powerful, & less powerful, simultaneously for different reasons. The result roughly balances to the same 'net' power level. More importantly, however, the rules alterations I suggested make Hardened Armor function within the system. Rules as Written, Hardened Armor stands out as something that does not fit within the rest of the game - it works, but doesn't mesh.



Please note that I also made another change to spirits, reducing their Physical & Mental attributes, and their Skills, to one-half their Force, round up (minimum 1, for those with attribute penalties). Spirits also do not possess an Edge attribute (excepting Free Spirits, of course), although the conjurer may spend their own Edge on any test a spirit they control makes.

In my game, spirits are quite a bit less powerful than RAW, but are still immensely useful both in and out of combat situations. Conjurers are still very powerful characters, and spirits can easily turn the tide in a battle, & often can perform the battle themselves.

I have run with the spirit changes as both a GM and a Player, and while doing so as a player has been somewhat frustrating at times, I still strongly suggest the changes.

We were discussing very similar changes to spirits, and I think its a good idea. I think all of these changes will have positive results. As a player of a mage, I think I'd prefer this. Spirits right now trump everything else I do by such a large margin its not even funny. I can easily summon up a force 8 or 9 spirit and it far too easily can complete any task I give it. It really takes a lot out of our games. Sure we have other ways of dealing with it, but it leaves abad taste in our mouth.

[Muspellsheimr]

Magical armor (such as from the Armor spell) is treated as worn armor by default, as it is not something innate (Natural) to the creature.

Elemental effects function normally (please note they don't have -half Armor Penetration, they are resisted with half Impact; mostly academic distinction, but it can become important). In other words, only half the Hardened Armor value applies, the same as any other armor the character/creature is wearing.

And no, I did not change the armor values of anything that already had Hardened Armor for various reasons - ultimately, I felt it was unnecessary at best.

[Draco18s]

Magical armor (such as from the Armor spell) is treated as worn armor by default, as it is not something innate (Natural) to the creature.

Well, I was more concerned with magical + worn, which one is on top.

[Muspellsheimr]

Assuming you are capable of finding any Magical / Worn armor capable of providing Hardened Armor (which, by RAW, there is none) - then that one is "on top". Otherwise, it doesn't matter.

[Tyro]

Started a poll on the subject