Genetic Heritage and You, a quick question Options

[crash2029]

The quality Genetic Heritage states that you start with one genetic modification for free. My question is, does this include transgenic alterations?

[Delarn]

I would allow one geneteic mod. And free is free essence too...

Transgenic is genetic alteration right ? So it must be included.

[Draco18s]

And free is free essence too...

Actually, it isn't. I believe there's an entire thread on that already on the forums somewhere.

They mean "free" as in "no monetary cost." Essence reductions are always noted as listing the word "Essence" when referring to the Essence cost.

[WyldKnight]

But i thought someone couldn't be born with lower then 6 essence? If something was made part of you from birth then why should it weaken you?

[Draco18s]

But i thought someone couldn't be born with lower then 6 essence? If something was made part of you from birth then why should it weaken you?

Because you're still not fundamentally Human. That whole "naming" thing.

[WyldKnight]

"Naming" being....?

So with enough modifications a baby could be born an inch away from being a cyber zombie then? Thats just awesome.

[Delarn]

Genetic Heritage is inherited by a parent so it should count has a "SURGE" like phenomenon. It should not cost money or essence to obtain it. You can take it only once too. Else it would be too powerful.

[WyldKnight]

I should have said the awesome was Sarcastic. Sorry, text and all make it hard and I sometimes forget but I concur with it basically being like Surge. You were born with it so it shouldn't stab you in the face. Anyway it doesn't matter, to each table it's own.

[Adarael]

I should note that it is also possible to be born with less than 6 essence - or to have less than 6 essence - even if you have no cyber/bio/nano/geneware. Malnutrition, severe disease, genetic damage, radiation damage, toxins and other environmental hazards can lower your essence. It is assumed that this is an abnormal condition and such people do not make good shadowrunners, however, hence at chargen you are assumed to have full essence.

[Draco18s]

\"Naming\" being....?

The ultrametamagic from Earthdawn that allows dragons to create new races.

Edit: Here's the old thread, complete with a quote from Synner.

[Stahlseele]

Ghouls get born with less than 6 Essence too right?
And i mean the bred and born true ones, not the actual infected ones.
OK, one COULD argue that they are not human anymore . .

[crash2029]

So what I am seeing is a transgenic alteration is alright, and the nuyen cost is waived. The essence cost is still up in the air. Am I interpreting this correct?

By the way, thanks for the speedy replies guys. Probably the second biggest reason why I love SR is DS.

[Squinky]

I'd like to argue for the free essence costs, otherwise it is cheaper BP wise just to buy the genetic thingamajig. Not taking availability into the equation, no books with me here. The highest genetic option is like 30,000 nuyen if I remember right, and the quality is 10bp (50,000 nuyen worth).

[RedeemerofOgar]

I'd like to argue for the free essence costs, otherwise it is cheaper BP wise just to buy the genetic thingamajig. Not taking availability into the equation, no books with me here. The highest genetic option is like 30,000 nuyen if I remember right, and the quality is 10bp (50,000 nuyen worth).

That's a winning argument in my book.

[Delarn]

I did not think like that but I think that Quality is far better than I thought ... Glucacon for all my characters ... that have flesh bodies (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Falconer]

I'd like to argue for the free essence costs, otherwise it is cheaper BP wise just to buy the genetic thingamajig. Not taking availability into the equation, no books with me here. The highest genetic option is like 30,000 nuyen if I remember right, and the quality is 10bp (50,000 nuyen worth).

Incorrect... Genecrafted is 5 BP and applies a 20% discount to ANY genecraft modifications acquired ONLY during character generation, not after gameplay. (now unless you're getting over 250000 in genework... probably not your kind of thing... not a great quality).


Genetic heritage is 10BP. HOWEVER, it gives a 20% discount on TRANSGENIC alterations either before or after character generation. However, the quality allows starting with ANY genetic alteration at chargen for no $$$ cost (and refers to p72 which is the entire genetech section), and the ability to ignore availability is also very big (restricted availability is normally a 5BP quality in it's own right!) (obviously not adapsin).
So now the quality is giving you free $$$, a free restrictred availability, AND an ongoing cost reduction all for 10BP.


So no, you aren't getting dicked out of 50k of resources... (you still have the full 50BP to spend on resources.. though for a street sam or rigger.. this is a way to move resources out of the 50BP limit and into qualities!). In fact, as a quality, this is much cheaper than exceptional attribute (for genetic optomization for +1 to an attribute).


So no, you are by no means making any kind of a case for no essence cost. There still is an essence cost to the best of my knowledge.

Though to be honest, I feel that both the genecrafted and heritage qualties would have worked better as a 20% essence cost reduction. And that's what I would suggest house ruling them as. But that would be a house rule.

[Delarn]

Ok so your blue eyes cost you for a customisation of the coloration of your eyes ... poor you, you get less essence ! So all people who don't have, Brown hair and brown eyes are starting with 5.8 essence.

That is exactly what you are telling. The modification is in herritage of a parent ! So it's FREE !

[Draco18s]

That is a Quantificational fallacy (proof by example). Just because a genetic alteration treatment exists to change your hair and eye color that costs essence doesn't mean that the Genetic Heritage quality for that treatment shouldn't cost essence (getting the treatment after birth fucks with your natural DNA, hence the essence cost).

Qualia is a gene from reptiles, don't you think having that incorporated into your genetic code (from your parents) should make you fundamentally less human?

[crash2029]

Oh, dear. One of these days I am going to learn not to open a can of worms on this site.

Qualia is a gene from reptiles, don't you think having that incorporated into your genetic code (from your parents) should make you fundamentally less human?

While I would agree that the incorporation of reptile DNA into a human genome would make the human less, well, human by degree, I don't see humanity as a part of essence. Essence is usually defined as the body and spirit's holistic integrity. If such DNA were present from birth, would not the subject's holistic integrity be intact? The problem, as far as I can tell, is that we are trying to reconcile a scientific modification of a life form with an innately supernatural quality. When a person is an adult and their spiritual and physical selves are fully formed it is alot easier to tell the machine from man. But for an infant who was born that way, who can tell what is human versus what is science?

DISCLAIMER: I do not actually care one way or the other about whether my character pays essence for the modification or not. I am arguing this point merely for philosophical stimulation.

[Draco18s]

I think Essence is really a number of things.

But then, we have to remember that it's a vague magical concept and just go, "Right, Magic" and move on.

[Mikado]

While I would agree that the incorporation of reptile DNA into a human genome would make the human less, well, human by degree, I don't see humanity as a part of essence. Essence is usually defined as the body and spirit's holistic integrity. If such DNA were present from birth, would not the subject's holistic integrity be intact? The problem, as far as I can tell, is that we are trying to reconcile a scientific modification of a life form with an innately supernatural quality. When a person is an adult and their spiritual and physical selves are fully formed it is alot easier to tell the machine from man. But for an infant who was born that way, who can tell what is human versus what is science?

Within the standard level of mutation humans exibit (some people are smarter, or stronger or run faster, have heart disease... ect...) those people are still considered Human. Someone who has been geneticaly altered, before birth or as an adult, is no longer Human. People still call them human but but they are no longer truely Human as far as metagenes go.

"Who can tell what is human versus what is science?" is a good question and one that is difficult to answer.
I remember an old Twilight Zone episode where EVERYONE underwhent plastic surgery to appear identical. Males and females had 10 or so body types they could "chose" from and everyone was "beautiful." It is not a streach to replace plastic surgery with genecrafting given the time period the episode came from. Or the movie Gattaca, where everyone was genecrafted. From our point of veiw now those people are not human. They are transhuman. Both examples are transhuman.
The fact is that metagenes do care if your Human or not. If your parents where genecrafted (and are then transhuman) and you picked up those traits, you are genecrafted. Just because "Naming" has been left out of the SR books it is still part of the background for SR taken from Earthdawn. Now if that was not part of SR cannon I could see the argument that you would not take an essence hit for it the fact that it is there means that you have to take it into account.

[Delarn]

That is a Quantificational fallacy (proof by example). Just because a genetic alteration treatment exists to change your hair and eye color that costs essence doesn't mean that the Genetic Heritage quality for that treatment shouldn't cost essence (getting the treatment after birth fucks with your natural DNA, hence the essence cost).

Qualia is a gene from reptiles, don't you think having that incorporated into your genetic code (from your parents) should make you fundamentally less human?

Essence is the link of the spirit and the body. Animals have essence too !

[Draco18s]

Essence is the link of the spirit and the body. Animals have essence too !

Then why does the treatment cost essence in the first place, mm?

[Delarn]

Then why does the treatment cost essence in the first place, mm?

remeber that SR3, Bioware and Genetherapy were using Body Index. Not the precious ! If I gain a genemod and my decendent get it in heritage they would not be penalized for my mistake ...

[Mikado]

Then why does the treatment cost essence in the first place, mm?

Because any change you do to your body disrupts your spirit. Cyber/bio/nano/gene ware all disrupt your body/spirit link. So does exessive drug use or some other addictions. Any change to alter the chemistry (or some such) of your body dampens the spirits link to the body.