Genetic Heritage and You, a quick question Options

[Karoline]

Any change to alter the chemistry (or some such) of your body dampens the spirits link to the body.

So if I'm on anti-depressants then my essence is taking a dive? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[etherial]

Because any change you do to your body disrupts your spirit. Cyber/bio/nano/gene ware all disrupt your body/spirit link. So does exessive drug use or some other addictions. Any change to alter the chemistry (or some such) of your body dampens the spirits link to the body.

As can malnutrition, starvation, etc. While all characters with an Essence of 6 at character creation survived their childhood unscathed, the reality is that some Riggers and Street Sams placed their first 'Ware in essence holes that already existed.

[hahnsoo]

As can malnutrition, starvation, etc. While all characters with an Essence of 6 at character creation survived their childhood unscathed, the reality is that some Riggers and Street Sams placed their first 'Ware in essence holes that already existed.

Do you have a canon quote that backs up the claim that either Malnutrition or Starvation reduces Essence? I don't recall any text that confirms this.

[Mikado]

So if I'm on anti-depressants then my essence is taking a dive? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

Yes... When taken to the extremes that the book talks about when dealing with drug addiction. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif)

[etherial]

Do you have a canon quote that backs up the claim that either Malnutrition or Starvation reduces Essence? I don't recall any text that confirms this.

If a character abuses her body repeatedly with chemicals, toxins, or even just negligence over a long period of time, she may lose Essence as well.

[hahnsoo]

If a character abuses her body repeatedly with chemicals, toxins, or even just negligence over a long period of time, she may lose Essence as well.

That could just mean the character doesn't exercise. Or sits in a pile of his/her own vomit and feces all day. "Negligence" can mean a lot of things, and it's ripe for interpretation, I guess. There's no specific mention of malnutrition or starvation. I'm not saying that "you'll have to do better than that" (the quote is good enough for me), but given how many character backgrounds that we have of "I wuz a starvin child, but now that my totem found meh, I'm all magically shaman/adept. Woot.", it seems a bit of a stretch.

[Karoline]

That could just mean the character doesn't exercise. Or sits in a pile of his/her own vomit and feces all day. "Negligence" can mean a lot of things, and it's ripe for interpretation, I guess. There's no specific mention of malnutrition or starvation. I'm not saying that "you'll have to do better than that" (the quote is good enough for me), but given how many character backgrounds that we have of "I wuz a starvin child, but now that my totem found meh, I'm all magically shaman/adept. Woot.", it seems a bit of a stretch.

Guess they mean "I wuz a starvin child, but not quite starving enough for it to affect my essence any, because that would suck ass now that I'm awakened."

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Draco18s]

Or maybe they filled the essence hole with something, like a super thyroid.

[Draco18s]

Or maybe they filled the essence hole with something, like a super thyroid.

[Karoline]

Only problems with that are that it doesn't create an essence hole, only 'ware does that and it doesn't account for starving mages who start with full 6 essence.

[Delarn]

I would love to have body index again !

[Squinky]

Incorrect... Genecrafted is 5 BP and applies a 20% discount to ANY genecraft modifications acquired ONLY during character generation, not after gameplay. (now unless you're getting over 250000 in genework... probably not your kind of thing... not a great quality).


Genetic heritage is 10BP. HOWEVER, it gives a 20% discount on TRANSGENIC alterations either before or after character generation. However, the quality allows starting with ANY genetic alteration at chargen for no $$$ cost (and refers to p72 which is the entire genetech section), and the ability to ignore availability is also very big (restricted availability is normally a 5BP quality in it's own right!) (obviously not adapsin).
So now the quality is giving you free $$$, a free restrictred availability, AND an ongoing cost reduction all for 10BP.


So no, you aren't getting dicked out of 50k of resources... (you still have the full 50BP to spend on resources.. though for a street sam or rigger.. this is a way to move resources out of the 50BP limit and into qualities!). In fact, as a quality, this is much cheaper than exceptional attribute (for genetic optomization for +1 to an attribute).


So no, you are by no means making any kind of a case for no essence cost. There still is an essence cost to the best of my knowledge.

Though to be honest, I feel that both the genecrafted and heritage qualties would have worked better as a 20% essence cost reduction. And that's what I would suggest house ruling them as. But that would be a house rule.

Well, I wouldn't call that argument valid enough to prove me incorrect, those additional factors you listed are almost never going to come in to play. The fact is the quality states it is for free, if you run with it charging essence then fine, but as it reads it is free. If you feel like arguing humanity and essence to show that it would cost essence, feel free, its just all fluff at this point though.

[etherial]

Well, I wouldn't call that argument valid enough to prove me incorrect, those additional factors you listed are almost never going to come in to play. The fact is the quality states it is for free, if you run with it charging essence then fine, but as it reads it is free. If you feel like arguing humanity and essence to show that it would cost essence, feel free, its just all fluff at this point though.

"Free" has been directly stated by the developers to mean "zero nuyen", in line with their usual policy of explicitly stating when something affects Essence.

[JoelHalpern]

Whatever one may construct logically, the developers have been quite clear that the quality means "zero nuyen, full essence cost."
The argument that it gives you a good availability item would be of note, except that there is only one piece of Transgenics of availability above 12 (adapsin), and it explicitly that it is brand new, so there is no way it can be tied to Genetic Heritage. Heck it is not even allowed to affect wear bought during character creation.

So, while aestetically interesting, and maybe appropriate for character background, it is really hard to make that quality make sense pointwise.

Yours,
Joel

[Glyph]

Point-wise, it is similar to hard-maxing an Attribute costing 25 points. I see it mainly for street samurai who have already spent the 330,000 Nuyen from Born Rich and In Debt, and still need to get Reakt. Getting more gear after you get the 250,000 Nuyen becomes more difficult and expensive.

I do agree that it doesn't make sense to take the quality if you haven't maxed out your Resources already.

[Delarn]

Whatever one may construct logically, the developers have been quite clear that the quality means "zero nuyen, full essence cost."
The argument that it gives you a good availability item would be of note, except that there is only one piece of Transgenics of availability above 12 (adapsin), and it explicitly that it is brand new, so there is no way it can be tied to Genetic Heritage. Heck it is not even allowed to affect wear bought during character creation.

So, while aestetically interesting, and maybe appropriate for character background, it is really hard to make that quality make sense pointwise.

Yours,
Joel

Quote please ... anyway I'll ask.

[Karoline]

Why does the quality not make sense? For 10 BP you get 9 BP worth of free gear (Presuming you take the optimization) and then get a 20% discount on all geneware you buy. Provided you buy more than 25000 worth of geneware (not hard as they are expensive) then the quality has paid for itself not even taking into account any future purchases that might be made.

Also, for those who think that 'free' means no essence: Mystery Mod says the ware is free but it still costs essence. And why do you think that 'free' means both essence and nuyen but '20% discount' doesn't mean both essence and nuyen?

Personally I've always presumed that it cost essence just like anything else if only for the fact that it never once mentions essence.

[Draco18s]

Quote please ... anyway I'll ask.

Ahem, from earlier in this very thread.

Edit: Here's the old thread, complete with a quote from Synner.

[Falconer]

Ok so your blue eyes cost you for a customisation of the coloration of your eyes ... poor you, you get less essence ! So all people who don't have, Brown hair and brown eyes are starting with 5.8 essence.

That is exactly what you are telling. The modification is in herritage of a parent ! So it's FREE !

This is a bad argument... Not only that, people come w/ brown, blue, green, etc. eyes naturally and genetics are such that you can end up w/ a lot of different colors w/o any essence. Your parents did not pay essence to have their eye color set... and if they did it was from human DNA not edited in any way most likely.

Further, if the change was purely cosmetic surgery, changing your eye or hair color would not change your essence... nor would colored contacts. Look at minor modification under biosculpting.


In order to make this argument, you don't argue the harmless cosmetic surgery case. You need to argue that someone who severely disrupts their genome w/ something like Reakt, Qualia, or Space adaptation (.4 to .5 essence) can pass this disruptive change on to their offspring w/o disrupting their natural essence at all. (sidenote: while most critters have 6 essence not all do... ) The essence loss is because you've deviated too far from the human 'norm'.


Joel:
The quality only applies after chargen discounts to the phenotype group. However, the quality itself allows the entire section for the initial mod. So genewipe is another option.

[crash2029]

When I posted this thread all I wanted to know was if transgenic modifications counted for genetic heritage. I assumed they meant zero essence. Although when I read these replies I can appreciate the arguments about essence cost. I feel that in this case the rules are not about philosophical arguments about what is human or what is essence. I think the philosophical debate is very interesting and can lend some insight about the 6th world as we see it. But we all know what happens when one tries to make SR fit reality.

[Delarn]

This is a bad argument... Not only that, people come w/ brown, blue, green, etc. eyes naturally and genetics are such that you can end up w/ a lot of different colors w/o any essence. Your parents did not pay essence to have their eye color set... and if they did it was from human DNA not edited in any way most likely.

Further, if the change was purely cosmetic surgery, changing your eye or hair color would not change your essence... nor would colored contacts. Look at minor modification under biosculpting.


In order to make this argument, you don't argue the harmless cosmetic surgery case. You need to argue that someone who severely disrupts their genome w/ something like Reakt, Qualia, or Space adaptation (.4 to .5 essence) can pass this disruptive change on to their offspring w/o disrupting their natural essence at all. (sidenote: while most critters have 6 essence not all do... ) The essence loss is because you've deviated too far from the human 'norm'.


Joel:
The quality only applies after chargen discounts to the phenotype group. However, the quality itself allows the entire section for the initial mod. So genewipe is another option.

Ok so Dragon should not have 12 essence they are not human, they should have less. Genetically herited feature is part of your code ! You are no longer human you are something else ! You become a changeling and still have your essense ! So the heritage should just make you a changeling.

[Karoline]

I'm still not sure why people think they get this mod without an essence cost. No where in the description does it say it doesn't cost essence like normal. It just says 'free' which seems very obviously a reference to nuyen only. Kind of like when you get stuff for free from the TV adds, you just pay separate $10 shipping and handling.

Remember that it also says you get a 20% discount. Why does anyone who thinks 'free' refers to essence not also think the 20% discount does as well? It is fairly simple. If essence isn't specifically mentioned, it isn't adjusted.

[Squinky]

Well, I'm done arguing, I was proven wrong (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Draco18s]

Ok so Dragon should not have 12 essence they are not human, they should have less.

*Sigh*

Naming.

Naming makes new creatures and gives them a "full" 6 essence. Humans, Elves, Dwarves, etc. were all Named. A human genetically modified towards cockroaches has not been Named.

As for dragons having 7-12 essence, I can't say. I suppose it's a crunch reason for giving them 7-12 Magic without needing to initiate.

[Tyro]

*Sigh*

Naming.

Naming makes new creatures and gives them a "full" 6 essence. Humans, Elves, Dwarves, etc. were all Named. A human genetically modified towards cockroaches has not been Named.

As for dragons having 7-12 essence, I can't say. I suppose it's a crunch reason for giving them 7-12 Magic without needing to initiate.

That explains a lot