Hardliner Gloves Options

[Old_Man]

Could not really find an answer to this on the forums anywhere but...


Do hardliner gloves stack with the critical strike adept power?

And then is there an equivalent to hardliner gloves but for feet?

[Neraph]

1) The proper question is actually "Does the Adept Power Critical Strike stack with Hardliner Gloves?", since Hardliner Gloves are technically a weapon (complete with a damage code) that happens to use the Unarmed combat skill. In any event, I would say they do (Hardliner Gloves use the Unarmed Skill, and Crit Strike increased dmg of Unarmed attacks).

2) There are no stats for this, although I can see them being developed (steel-toed shoes). This would be a house rule though.

[Falconer]

The power does not say when using the unarmed combat skill. It says when involved in unarmed combat.

If you're using a weapon... while you may be using the skill... you're not unarmed or involved in unarmed combat.

The defiance EX shocker uses the unarmed combat skill in melee as well... does that count as well?! Either you're fighting w/ a weapon or you're not. By your logical argument construct Neraph... you must conclude the shocker also qualifies... how about a shock hand.

IMO: the adept powers wording allows use w/ bare knuckles, bare knuckles + adept melee powers. Not with any weapons.

If you take it to it's logical end... now you get... weapon focus hardliner gloves... on top of all the adept powers. If it's a weapon, then that's a big nono... (a sword adept would not be able to do this, let alone the difficulties of smuggling a sword through things as opposed to an easily overlooked pair of gloves). See the balance issues which start to crop up.



As far as the second... yeah steel toed boots... or the like... I don't see any issues with them. They're not problematic in their own right.

[Neraph]

The power does not say when using the unarmed combat skill. It says when involved in unarmed combat.

If you're using a weapon... while you may be using the skill... you're not unarmed or involved in unarmed combat.

I never said Crit Strike is used with the Unarmed Combat Skill. I said the Hardliner Gloves used Unarmed Combat skill, and Crit Strike increases the damage of "unarmed attacks", which, logically, means any attack with the Unarmed Combat Skill. Obviously, some people can argue that gloves on your hands prevent you from using your boxing techniques...

The defiance EX shocker uses the unarmed combat skill in melee as well... does that count as well?! Either you're fighting w/ a weapon or you're not.

Where does it say that? In my book it says "...allow it to be used as a stun weapon in melee." Can you tell me where that says "Using the Unarmed Combat Skill"? I'd imagine it uses Clubs, just like Pistol-whipping does, as per Arsenal.

If you take it to it's logical end... now you get... weapon focus hardliner gloves... on top of all the adept powers. If it's a weapon, then that's a big nono... (a sword adept would not be able to do this).

True, but swords have a roughly equal end damage code, and a lot less effort to get it at. An adept needs to take Hardliner Gloves and three levels of Crit Strike to equal just the +DV a claymore gives the shmuck who walked down the street and bought it (from a weapons dealer, of course), and the adept doesn't have the Armor Penetration a claymore does unless he spends more Power Points to get it.

So I'd say no... it's not a huge issue. But the rules, and balance seem to suggest otherwise.


As far as the second... yeah steel toed boots... or the like... I don't see any issues with them. They're not problematic in their own right.

They're not problematic in their own right... But when used in accordance to the Crit Strike from above, Penetrating Strike, a few martial arts, Distance Strike, and Kick Attack, you've got something particularly dangerous.

[Saint Sithney]

I would figure that "unarmed attacks" referred to attacks where the character is unarmed.

I also expect unarmed combat, at an adept level, to be using more than just a closed fist. I'm thinking finger jabs to the throat and eyes, flying elbows, massive kicks all heel-to-temple, knees busting chins, palm strikes driving bone into brains and all sorts of other mayhem not even remotely related to just socking a guy in the puss.

[Glyph]

I don't usually agree with Neraph's rules interpretations, but I do here. Hardliner gloves just add a bit of extra "umph" to a normal unarmed attack, similarly to how bone lacing increases unarmed damage. I generally favor letting the gloves stack with both critical strike and bone lacing.

There is nothing officially out there that gives a similar boost to kicking damage, but it's still easy enough for the GM to come up with steel-toed boots or densiplast-reinforced tabi shoes, or some other functional equivalent of the gloves.

[Machiavelli]

Agree. The description says that the adept power lets the attacker hit harder. This is definitely something that is compatible with knuckledusters and hardliner gloves, don´t you think?

[Neraph]

I don't usually agree with Neraph's rules interpretations, but I do here. Hardliner gloves just add a bit of extra "umph" to a normal unarmed attack, similarly to how bone lacing increases unarmed damage. I generally favor letting the gloves stack with both critical strike and bone lacing.

When someone who doesn't like me (a generalization, of course) agrees with me on a ruling, that should say something. Either: 1) The ruling is correct, or 2) I am slowly converting said person to my philosophy of the game. Bwa-ha-ha-ha-ha! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/vegm.gif)

[Machiavelli]

or

3) you are converting to HIS philosophy of the game.^^

[Neraph]

or

3) you are converting to HIS philosophy of the game.^^

Didn't you know? I'm a Taurus. That'll never happen.

[Machiavelli]

Didn't you know? I'm a Taurus. That'll never happen.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

[Falconer]

Neraph.. I disagree with you on one two primary points.

If we disregard the defiance ex... and instead use shocker gloves... we get the same problem. And those definitively use unarmed in SR4a. (don't see the reference in SR4a print on defiance, and I lent out my old book to a new player.. so if someone could check there). The gloves are a weapon, not 'unarmed combat'... they only happen to use the same skill to punch with, but try telling some cop who's frisking you that the brass knuckles aren't a weapon and see how well that goes. Also as the other poster rightly adds... unarmed combat is more than just punching... it's also kicks, elbows, breaks, binds, etc.


Now onto my second contention... you claim that weapons are easy and equivalent. I disagree strongly. There are many adept powers which directly enhance unarmed combat... and it's the only one in which the damage potential is essentially unlimited. (str1, mag10 human, could conceivably have 11 base damage... w/ crit strike 10... which especially when you get into things like power points in place of metamagics as in street magic... it's not hard to get tons of power points subject of course to the max magic limitation). (it's cheaper to initiate than it is to raise magic under SR4a w/ the 5x new magic cost).


The only advantage of weapons is the ability to generate bonus dice (by being weapon foci) and reach. Their equipment advantages are easily offset by A. being hard to conceal for the big ones and B. inability to get them where you need them. C. cost on weapon foci (both $$$ & bonding karma)

Even a small concealable weapon like a survival knife is only +1DV, -1AP. It's only advantage over unarmed is that you can get them in weapon foci. If we go slightly larger... mono-sword is only +1reach, +3DV, -1AP.

Martial arts quality... you can get +3 DV to unarmed combat, but only +2DV to blades IIRC, and only +1 to clubs.

Equipment wise... yes you can get +3 or 4 DV with an axe... but I can also get +3 DV by using bone lacing. (also a cyberlimb does P damage instead of S if used in melee).



So effectively, IF you go with what you're saying... not only can the unarmed adept take the only advantage of a weapons adept (the ability to get bonus dice to hit from weapon foci), but they can also increase their damage w/ very little limit.

This is why I caution against it.

[Dakka Dakka]

If we disregard the defiance ex... and instead use shocker gloves... we get the same problem. And those definitively use unarmed in SR4a. (don't see the reference in SR4a print on defiance, and I lent out my old book to a new player.. so if someone could check there).

But with shock gloves you do a touch attack to transfer the charge. there is no double damage and punching harder, which Critical strike essentially is, will help nothing.

Now onto my second contention... you claim that weapons are easy and equivalent. I disagree strongly. There are many adept powers which directly enhance unarmed combat... and it's the only one in which the damage potential is essentially unlimited. (str1, mag10 human, could conceivably have 11 base damage... w/ crit strike 10... which especially when you get into things like power points in place of metamagics as in street magic... it's not hard to get tons of power points subject of course to the max magic limitation). (it's cheaper to initiate than it is to raise magic under SR4a w/ the 5x new magic cost).

Every Power is limited by MAG. So you would have to have Mag 10 to get Critical Strike 10. This is really expensive. Going to STR/2 +6 and negative AP is no problem even for a mundane.

Martial arts quality... you can get +3 DV to unarmed combat, but only +2DV to blades IIRC, and only +1 to clubs.

You remember incorrectly: The bonuses from all martial arts stack. Take Arnis de Mano(+1DV on Blades), Escrima(+1DV on Blades) and Ars Cybernetica (+DV on Blades) for +3. There are even three more but the bonus is capped at 3.

Equipment wise... yes you can get +3 or 4 DV with an axe... but I can also get +3 DV by using bone lacing.

Thats +3 and Reach 0 an axe(+4) has Reach 2.

So effectively, IF you go with what you're saying... not only can the unarmed adept take the only advantage of a weapons adept (the ability to get bonus dice to hit from weapon foci), but they can also increase their damage w/ very little limit.

It has always been this way that unarmed adepts are better than armed melee adepts. This is why i suggested a house rule in another forum to create powers that work like the unarmed attack enhancing powers but for a single melee weapon skill e.g. Critical Strike(Clubs), Penetrating Strike(Blades)

Another thing that balances unarmed against armed melee is the fact that you cannot make more than one attack against a single opponent or make one attack and still get the benefit of Full Defense.

[Karoline]

But with shock gloves you do a touch attack to transfer the charge. there is no double damage and punching harder, which Critical strike essentially is, will help nothing.

I think his point is that the hardliner gloves don't say that they do or do not stack with critical strike, but they are obviously an object of some kind that are considered a weapon and use unarmed skill. The shock gloves are similarly an object that are considered a weapon and use unarmed skill and do not state specifically if they stack with critical strike. Thus, regardless of the fact that one does (e) damage or that one requires only a light touch to do the damage as opposed to a hard strike, mechanically they are identical in their qualification from a rules standpoint for being affected by critical strike. Thus if one qualifies for being affected by critical strike, the other must as well.

So, if the hardliner gloves work with critical strike, so do the shock gloves because rules wise they are indistinguishable in any regard that matters to critical strike.

[Falconer]

Correct Karoline, thank you for stating that so succinctly....

While brevity may be the soul of wit... too often I get caught up in trying to cover my flanks w/ the exceptions and conditionals.


My concerns here are pretty much summarised thus.
What you said. If taken to a logical conclusion, why not a WH40k power fist... if it uses unarmed.... and given the over the top and cyberpunk nature of SR... it definately fits the setting.

This gives unarmed adepts access to the full benefits of weapon adepts... with none of the drawbacks (such as being disarmed).



Dakka:
Incorrect on martial arts... Arnis de Mano and Escrima are the same thing under the same entry.
+1 DV blades is only present twice in arsenal. I actually skimmed Arsenal quickly before writing that.


You're missing the point.. the largest weapon is only a +4 DV. +4 DV from critical strike is only 1PP (.25 per rank) and only requires 4 magic. A player can easily exceed that. The Magic 10 was mostly because I had the idea of some great old withered master in my head... punching like a freight train making a troll look weak.

[Karoline]

punching like a freight train making a troll look weak.

Well, that isn't all that hard to do with critical strike in the first place. After all, STR only adds half to damage, so even a really strong troll only does 5ish base damage. Meanwhile an average human with a slightly above average magic can easily get 2+4=6 damage from a punch.

[Emy]

Well, that isn't all that hard to do with critical strike in the first place. After all, STR only adds half to damage, so even a really strong troll only does 5ish base damage. Meanwhile an average human with a slightly above average magic can easily get 2+4=6 damage from a punch.

In my opinion, it's only a good idea to pump Str really high once you've gotten all you can out of Agi.

Str: 1/2 to damage
Agi: 1/3 (average) to damage, also helps you hit opponents more easily.

Or is that already implicit in discussions about melee combat? (and hence you're just discussing how to raise base damage?)

I think his point is that the hardliner gloves don't say that they do or do not stack with critical strike, but they are obviously an object of some kind that are considered a weapon and use unarmed skill. The shock gloves are similarly an object that are considered a weapon and use unarmed skill and do not state specifically if they stack with critical strike. Thus, regardless of the fact that one does (e) damage or that one requires only a light touch to do the damage as opposed to a hard strike, mechanically they are identical in their qualification from a rules standpoint for being affected by critical strike. Thus if one qualifies for being affected by critical strike, the other must as well.

So, if the hardliner gloves work with critical strike, so do the shock gloves because rules wise they are indistinguishable in any regard that matters to critical strike.

So you can use a normal (nongloved) touch attack to deal your critical strike damage? Because it looks like that's what this post implies.

[Neraph]

If we disregard the defiance ex... and instead use shocker gloves... we get the same problem. And those definitively use unarmed in SR4a. (don't see the reference in SR4a print on defiance, and I lent out my old book to a new player.. so if someone could check there). The gloves are a weapon, not 'unarmed combat'... they only happen to use the same skill to punch with, but try telling some cop who's frisking you that the brass knuckles aren't a weapon and see how well that goes. Also as the other poster rightly adds... unarmed combat is more than just punching... it's also kicks, elbows, breaks, binds, etc.

The problem with this is that the Shock Gloves are specifically mentioned as not working with a normal attack. Check the FAQ before you make statements like that.

Now onto my second contention... you claim that weapons are easy and equivalent. I disagree strongly. There are many adept powers which directly enhance unarmed combat... and it's the only one in which the damage potential is essentially unlimited. (str1, mag10 human, could conceivably have 11 base damage... w/ crit strike 10... which especially when you get into things like power points in place of metamagics as in street magic... it's not hard to get tons of power points subject of course to the max magic limitation). (it's cheaper to initiate than it is to raise magic under SR4a w/ the 5x new magic cost).

No, you just misunderstood me. Using the setting of Shadowrun, Awakened people are less than 1% of the populace. It is easier to buy a claymore than it is to be Awakened (much less an Adept or Mystic Adept) in the 6th World. That is the point I was trying to make. Even so, unless you use many of your Power Points to do so, a weapon will give you better +damage and AP (not to mention Reach) than will Unarmed. This is not to say you can't make a better Unarmed Adept, just that if you do you're specializing a lot more. Joe Shmoe with a claymore has the same +damage and AP than a specialized Adept devoting 1.25 Power Points to equal a claymore (although he still lacks the 2 Reach). Now that isn't a whole lot of PP spent, but 900 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) is even easier to spend than 1.25 PP.

Martial arts quality... you can get +3 DV to unarmed combat, but only +2DV to blades IIRC, and only +1 to clubs.

A base claymore is 1/2Str+4. That +4 is what I am referring to.

You remember incorrectly: The bonuses from all martial arts stack. Take Arnis de Mano(+1DV on Blades), Escrima(+1DV on Blades) and Ars Cybernetica (+DV on Blades) for +3. There are even three more but the bonus is capped at 3.

The cap of 3 is only for Unarmed damage bonuses, mainly because Unarmed is the only one that has more than two options to increase damage. Wildcat and Pentjak-Silat both present an option for +1 dice for called shot to increase damage, so if you take both of those you can just always declare a Called Shot for increased damage, taking a -2 penalty, and the +2 for those martial arts will offset it (effectively making it a +2 DV with any weapon). Then stack on +2 DV for Blades or the +3 DV for Unarmed.

So, if the hardliner gloves work with critical strike, so do the shock gloves because rules wise they are indistinguishable in any regard that matters to critical strike.

Let me re-iterate (or more properly, quote the FAQ).

If you punch someone with shock gloves, do you inflict standard punching damage (STR/2) in addition to the glove's 6S DV? If you have gloves on both hands, can you attack with both and do 12S DV?

No, it's one or the other. You can choose to punch/kick/whatever and do regular unarmed damage, or you can choose to touch/punch and zap with the shock gloves, doing *only* the shock glove damage (not the unarmed damage too). Even with two gloves, the damage is still just 6S DV.

The upcoming Arsenal rulebook may feature rules for two-weapon melee.

So the FAQ clearly states how Shock Gloves interact with bonus damage sources, but Shock Gloves are not Hardliner Gloves.

[Dakka Dakka]

Incorrect on martial arts... Arnis de Mano and Escrima are the same thing under the same entry.
+1 DV blades is only present twice in arsenal. I actually skimmed Arsenal quickly before writing that.

Arnis de Mano and Escrima are under the same entry because their goals/advantages are sufficiently similar in the granularity of the game, but since they still are differently named they are distinct arts and thus they stack.

This is even clearer with arts that aren't as closely related as Arnis de Mano and Escrima and still are under the same entry:
ROSS vs. Krav Maga:One comes from Russia the other has Israeli origins.

And to not just rant, here is the RAW of it:

A character gains the advantages of all martial arts styles she knows; should they overlap, these dice modifiers stack.

Each martial arts entry gives the name of the style and the names of technically similar but distinct styles in parentheses, followed by a short description or history of the style and the advantages the character can choose from

[Falconer]

Thanks Dakka, I missed that. I was under the impression you could only take each individual 'benefit' of each art only once. I thought on each entry the seperate names weren't distinct enough to qualify.

That gives things like clubs a bit more love though at least.


The called shot bit is nifty, I've seen that in the past, but never considered it due to lack of actions (especially on a melee adept). Generally I find the free action on a melee adept is almost always used up by the 'adept centering' removing dice penalties. Though, as a power that's pretty nifty as it combines both the called shot & a limited form of the adept centering into a single free action. (even bigger for melee adepts since complex action to attack only leaves them 1 free action).

Not to sidetrack, but am I the only one who finds a lot of people don't read the book, and people end up doing way too much in a combat pass (EG: running, which is a free action, centering another, gesture... another... turns up!... but then they still attack not realizing how little time there actually is in the IP and how quickly actions get used).


Neraph:
I'm w/ Muspellsheimr on one thing here. The FAQ is so old and out dated and outright contradicts what was later printed that it's best for it to be ignored. I've stopped referring to it for anything. Though in this particular case, it's not particularly problematic.

However, the problem still exists from a rules perspective, that it's the weapon doing the damage, not the unarmed strike.

I'll repeat this... taken to logical extreme, this allows an unarmed adept to get all the benefits of a weapon (and a very easily concealable one at that! try walking into your local stuffer shack w/ a claymore or combat axe... try restricting yourself to concealable melee weapons) AND stack them w/ full adept unarmed adept combat powers. Or do you claim it's an ad absurdum argument, when I claim the first thing any munchkin will do is turn his hardliner gloves into a force 4 weapon focus and claim both benefits?

I'm not comparing a mundane w/ a sword to an adept. I'm comparing an adept w/ a sword to another adept and saying you're surrendering the only advantage the sword adept has. (it's kinda hard to disarm a phys ad if you hadn't noticed, or get him in situations where he has no weapons).

The only advantage for the sword adept is that he can bond a weapon focus giving him bonus dice to hit. (for every thiree dice he gets +1 hit increasing damage and odds that he'll connect). You start doing things w/ weapons and between reach, personalized grip, force 4 focus... that's +6 dice.

To expand on what Emy said...
Every 2 points of str == +1 damage
Every 3 points of Dex (or weapon focus, +dice mods) == +1 average damage, and better chance to hit.

[Karoline]

So the FAQ clearly states how Shock Gloves interact with bonus damage sources, but Shock Gloves are not Hardliner Gloves.

No, it doesn't actually. It states quite clearly that the attack either does (str/2) or 6(e) damage. It does not state anything at all dealing with bonus damage from critical strike, either in regard to the 6(e) or the (str/2). It should also be noted that the shock gloves state quite plainly that you can use them with a punch, so it is entirely reasonable that the critical strike ability of an adept could continue to work through hitting particularly sensitive areas or pressure points or harder or whatever critical strike entails.

So yeah, be sure you read what something actually says before you say that it says something. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

No, it doesn't actually. It states quite clearly that the attack either does (str/2) or 6(e) damage. It does not state anything at all dealing with bonus damage from critical strike, either in regard to the 6(e) or the (str/2). It should also be noted that the shock gloves state quite plainly that you can use them with a punch, so it is entirely reasonable that the critical strike ability of an adept could continue to work through hitting particularly sensitive areas or pressure points or harder or whatever critical strike entails.

So yeah, be sure you read what something actually says before you say that it says something. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

I actually thought that it was pretty clear myself...

EITHER you do unarmed combat damage (no bonus for the Shock Gloves in DV notice) OR you do Shock Damage... you cannot do both at the same time...

SO, just like any other NORMAL Leather Gloves, you could deal basic unarmed damage... Now, Look at Hardliner Gloves... they add +DV damge to Unarmed combat... they are no more a weapon than another leather glove in effect, and provide the same benefits of bone lacing... are you going to argue that bone lacing does not stack with the unarmed combat damage of the Adept, should he choose to augment himself?

The problem with foci are that they are obvious, and the adept would give up his potential obscurity of the hardliners to augment them with magic... Why bother..., they are not all that hard to take away in the end (and damned if I am going to spend the amounts of money and karma on stuff liek that when there are so many other things to purchase)... they are just as susceptible to removal upon capture as your rating 4 combat axe focus is... they may be a little harder to remove in the immediate her and now of combat, but I would also say that of most melee specialists as well...

Anyways...

keep the Faith

[Mikado]

SO, just like any other NORMAL Leather Gloves, you could deal basic unarmed damage... Now, Look at Hardliner Gloves... they add +DV damge to Unarmed combat... they are no more a weapon than another leather glove in effect, and provide the same benefits of bone lacing... are you going to argue that bone lacing does not stack with the unarmed combat damage of the Adept, should he choose to augment himself?

The only difference that I see is that bone lacing/augmentation is paid for with essence and there for a "natural" part of the body. Brass knuckles and hardliner gloves (while still unarmed combat) is a weapon. There is something (metal) between your skin and your target that is not basic everyday clothing. If you think of adept combat powers (save for distance strike) like touch spells it might make a bit more sense. Well, maybe not... Who said touch spells have to be skin on skin contact.

I don't have any stance on the matter. I don't think it is game breaking to allow close combat adepts to use hardliner gloves for a +2dv. In a game with assault rifles someone trying to get to melee combat could be suicidal. I think I would allow and adept to use them in the games I GM. My Monday night game GM would probably restrict their use though.

That being said... I would NOT allow an adept to use them with distance strike. I do not have my books with me to check the discription of distance strike but in no way would hardliner gloves make you hit something harder when your not even making contact with them.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

That being said... I would NOT allow an adept to use them with distance strike. I do not have my books with me to check the discription of distance strike but in no way would hardliner gloves make you hit something harder when your not even making contact with them.

Yeah, I have to agree with this... No Hardliner Gloves enhancement for the Distance Strike Adept

Keep the Faith

[Karoline]

EITHER you do unarmed combat damage (no bonus for the Shock Gloves in DV notice) OR you do Shock Damage... you cannot do both at the same time...

No, it's one or the other. You can choose to punch/kick/whatever and do regular unarmed damage, or you can choose to touch/punch and zap with the shock gloves, doing *only* the shock glove damage (not the unarmed damage too).

Th is power uses magic to increase the Damage Value of
your unarmed attacks, as you strike with more profi ciency and
power. Each level of Critical Strike increases the character’s
Damage Value in unarmed combat by +1.

You're correct. You either do "regular unarmed damage" or "shock glove damage". Now, with a hardliner glove you do (Str/2) + 1 P damage. Period. Notice that it does not say "Regular unarmed damage + 1". It is listed as a weapon with its own damage value just like a sword is.

So, if you consider a hardliner glove to be unarmed combat (Which is certainly reasonable, given that it uses the unarmed combat skill to attack with), then the shock glove is also unarmed combat, regardless of if it is doing shock glove damage or regular unarmed damage. Both the hardliner and the shock glove list a specific damage amount in the weapons table, both use the unarmed combat skill, and both fail to mention any sort of stacking with anything that boosts unarmed combat damage.

So, like I said before, both the hardliner glove and the shock glove are identical in all respects that critical strike is concerned about. The only requirement for Critical Strike is that you are using unarmed combat. If hardliner glove is unarmed combat, then so is the shock glove, and thus the critical strike power will increase the (e) damage of the gloves. The fact that the shock glove does (e) type damage is utterly irrelevant to anything as far as Critical Strike is concerned.