Becoming infected...what happens to magic? Options

[Machiavelli]

The rules say:

Magic and Essence
Starting Infected characters start with Essence 5 and Magic 1
during character generation.

But what if you become infected during gameplay?

Besides that, i really don´t understand the following rule, especially the bold section. What situation could cause this effect?

For Infected characters with Essence Loss, Magic loss does
not occur every time they lose or spend a point of Essence, and
their maximum Magic attribute is equal to their current Essence
+ Initiate grade. If their maximum Magic attribute is lower than
their current Magic attribute, their current Magic rating is adjusted
down to the reduced maximum. These points are lost and
must be repurchased with Karma. Infected characters can temporarily
exceed their current Magic maximum by spending Essence
points (see Essence Drain, p. 288, SR4).

[Cardul]

To the first: It stays the same.

To the Second: The loss of Essence in this way does not
disrupt their ability to work magic like cyber/bioware does,
but, if their essence drops low enough that Essence+Initiate Grade
is less then their current Magic, their magic would drop, because they
do not have the life force to fuel that strength of magic. This loss also
disrupts their aability to use magic at those levels, representign a weakened
connection to the mystical because of, essentially, starvation, and it takes
effort to get it back.

[hobgoblin]

remember that the magic attribute works just like any other attribute, you have a current (that is the number of dice you roll) and a max (how high you can buy your current using karma).

max magic (and therefor current) is limited by two things, essence, and initiation levels.

with creatures like vampires, the essence can go up and down like rollercoaster.

now lets say that you have a character with current magic 4, max magic 6 and essence 6.

as max magic is linked to essence, if that essence was to drop to say 3, max magic would also be 3, and thats lower then your current magic. Therefor current magic would go down to 3. Now, if essence was to go back up to 6, max magic would also go up to 6, but current magic would still be 3. So if that vampire wants it back up to 4, he would have to spend karma.

now initiation adds a extra wrinkle to that, as it adds directly to max magic. So if that vampire in the example had say initiation 3, he would have max magic 9, and even if the essence was to drop by 3, he would still be at max magic 6, and current magic would stay 4, as thats still lower then the max magic.

[Machiavelli]

But wouldn´t that mean that if you are an initate with e.g. rating 4 and you already raised your magic to 10, you are really f**ed up if you every loose essence below 10?

[hobgoblin]

nope, but below 6 essence would be a issue.

your total max magic is between 1 and 12 (from essence level, and no infected wants their essence to drop to 0) + 4 (from initiation levels).

[Draco18s]

Ok, despite those explanations I'm still confused.

Magic loss does
not occur every time they lose or spend a point of Essence, and
their maximum Magic attribute is equal to their current Essence

Magic loss DOES NOT HAPPEN when they spend essence AND THEIR MAGIC IS CAPPED BY ESSENCE.

This is contradictory. Either they lose the frakking magic or they don't.

[Ancient History]

Let's say you're a vampire and you have Magic 4 and Essence 6. Your maximum Magic, based on your Essence, is also 6.

Now let's say you spend two points of Essence, so you're down to Essence 4. Your maximum Magic, based on your Essence, is also 4. No problems yet.

Now let's say you lose another point of Essence. Your maximum Magic, based on your Essence, is now 3. Your current Magic (4) is greater than your maximum (3) so your Magic is adjusted downwards (i.e. when your Essence drops to 3, your Magic drops to 3).

What this basically means is that magician Infected need to keep their Essence higher, or else they start losing Magic.

[Draco18s]

So in other words:

Magic loss effectively does
occur every time they lose or spend a point of Essence, as
their maximum Magic attribute is equal to their current Essence

[Ancient History]

No. If their Essence is greater than their Magic, they do not lose Magic when they lose Essence.

[Draco18s]

No. If their Essence is greater than their Magic, they do not lose Magic when they lose Essence.

It is still poorly worded.

[Ancient History]

Have you read the entire paragraph?

For Infected characters with Essence Loss, Magic loss does
not occur every time they lose or spend a point of Essence, and
their maximum Magic attribute is equal to their current Essence
+ Initiate grade. If their maximum Magic attribute is lower than
their current Magic attribute, their current Magic rating is adjusted
down to the reduced maximum. These points are lost and
must be repurchased with Karma. Infected characters can temporarily
exceed their current Magic maximum by spending Essence
points (see Essence Drain, p. 288, SR4). Infected characters with
Essence Drain can only maintain siphoned Essence equal to twice
its natural maximum (from 6 to 12). Any Essence Drained above
that point is simply lost.

[Draco18s]

Have you read the entire paragraph?

Yes I did. My point was that the actual crunch is confusing, although the example makes it pretty clear.

[WalksWithWiFi]

When you are drained and infected by a vampire, your essence drops to 0
wouldn't your magic?

[Draco18s]

When you are drained and infected by a vampire, your essence drops to 0
wouldn't your magic?

Then you turn into a vampire, have 5 essence and a magic of 1.

[WalksWithWiFi]

I believe that was his first question?
Which someone answered the contrary to,
either that or my brain isn't awake yet.

[Starmage21]

Then you turn into a vampire, have 5 essence and a magic of 1.

I believe his question refers to what happens if you get infected during play as a magician. And the answer is bad stuff. First, as your essence drops to 0, so does your magic, and you burn out(but you dont lose the magician quality). That doesnt matter though, because you fall into a coma immediately thereafter.
In 24 hours, you wake up with 1 essence, and 1 magic. You are still a magician, and you can still cast spells, but youve got that 1 magic rating and you have to raise your magic back up with karma. Of course, your maximum magic is standard for vampires so you've got to feed on some essence before you can think about raising your magic again(unless you were an initiate before becoming infected).

[Machiavelli]

So i haven´t been the only one who was confused and my fear that your magic drops to 1, independently how high it has been before. This makes an infection really unpleasant during play and definitely a second thought should be made before this happens.

[Starmage21]

So i haven´t been the only one who was confused and my fear that your magic drops to 1, independently how high it has been before. This makes an infection really unpleasant during play and definitely a second thought should be made before this happens.

I'm not 100% sure theres a rule in SR4 that says you burn out automatically if your essence drops to 0, otherwise if youre an initiate, you could still have a few points of magic left over post infection.

That aside, yea it really really sucks to become a vamp during play. Youre better off paying your 100BP up front and going from there. Youll be less gimped.

[WalksWithWiFi]

Just a quick addition to the first question,
while looking through Running Wild this morning, (pg. 68)
and reading over the reprinted disease rules for the various strains
of HMHVV virus, i noticed this under HMHVV 1

"If the test fails, the character falls into a coma for (30 – Body)
hours as his body transforms. When the character awakens, he has
lost all Resonance and technomancer abilities, has acquired the appropriate
Infected (Banshee, Dzoo-noo-qua, Goblin, Nosferatu,
Vampire, or Wendigo) Quality (see Positive Infected Qualities,
p. 79, Runner’s Companion), and has an Essence of 1 and Magic of
1 (or retains her own Magic attribute, if higher)"

a a changed magician retains their magic attribute, regardless.

[Machiavelli]

Oh god i love you. Please make me a baby.^^ Great, thank you, finally the sentence i was looking for all the time. I owe you one.

[Brazilian_Shinob...]

Oh god i love you. Please make me a baby.^^ Great, thank you, finally the sentence i was looking for all the time. I owe you one.

Until the devs realize that and errata the stuff on Running Wild (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

[Machiavelli]

They shouldn´t even think about it. Not until i have morphed my char.^^ After that only a spirit pact with the included "hidden life" option is left. Then i am the ultimate black mage.^^

[WalksWithWiFi]

I view the addition of that text in Running Wild as a form of errata, since it is a newer
interpretation of the various diseases.

[Patrick the Gnom...]

I think that just means that you'd get to keep you're initiate grade enhanced magic, but still with a normal max of 1. Remember, before you ever fall into a transformation coma, you have to lose all your essence first. So you'd still reduce your essence to one, which reduces your max magic to 1 + initiate grade, which wouldn't change after the transformation. So if you were a magic 10 mage with 4 initiations, you'd be a magic 5 mage after becoming a vampire (because before you transformed your magic would be reduced by 5 due to essence loss).

[Draco18s]

I think that just means that you'd get to keep you're initiate grade enhanced magic, but still with a normal max of 1.

Or....maybe not.

"(or retains her own Magic attribute, if higher)"