SR4(R): Am I Playing This Character Right? (Dodge Adept) Options

[Logic]

Hey, I built this character recently; our group is a little new to SR4, so I want to make sure I'm not interpreting the rules incorrectly for this character. Here are the stats and abiilties I'm concerned about:

Ork Mystic Adept

Attributes:
Agility: 7 [5 +1 suprathyroid gland, +1 special GM circumstances]
Reaction: 10 [6 + 1 suprathyroid gland, +3 improved reflexes III*] (*: not technically raising my reaction attribute, so I'm not hitting the 9 cap.)
Willpower: 4
Magic: 5 [6 -1 essence]
Physical Init: 15 [11 +1 suprathyroid gland, +3 improved reflexes III]
Passes: 4 [1 +3 improved reflexes III]

Active Skills:
Blades (Swords): 4(+2)
Longarms (Shotguns): 4(+2)
Gymnastics (Tumbling): 3(+2)
Counterspelling (Combat Spells): 4(+2)
Perception: 6

Adept Powers:
Improved Reflexes III
Combat Sense 2

Bioware:
Suprathyroid Gland

Here are the relevant scenarios. Am I calculating things correctly?

Surprised:
* If I fail a perception roll, I am surprised. I don't get to react, dodge, or counterspell, and can only absorb hits.

Ranged Combat:
* I evade an attack using my Reaction & Combat Sense: 10[reaction] + 2[combat sense] = 12 dodging dice. Effectively I can buy off the first 3 successes on any hit.
* I fire a shotgun using my Longarms skill: 7[agility] +6[longarms/shotgun] = 13 attack dice

Melee Combat:
* I can evade an attack using my Reaction, Gymnastics Dodge, and Combat Sense: 10[reaction] + 5[gymnastics/tumbling] + 2[combat sense] = 17 dodging dice. Effectively I can buy off the first 4 successes on any hit.
* I can parry an attack using my Reaction, Weapon Skill, and Combat Sense: 10[reaction] +6[blades/swords] +2[combat sense] = 18 dodging dice. Effectively I can buy off the first 4 successes on any hit.
* I swing a sword using my Blades skill: 7[agility] + 6[blades/swords] = 13 attack dice

Full Defense:
* I can use my second initiative pass's complex action to declare a Full Dodge when attacked during the 1st initiative pass, after I've taken my 1st initiative pass. I can only do this if I haven't been surprised.

Full Dodge:
* I can evade an attack using my Reaction, Gymnastics Dodge x2, and Combat Sense: 10[reaction] +10[2x gymnastics/tumbling] +2[combat sense] = 22 dodging dice. Effectively I can buy off the first 5 successes on any hit.

Full Parry:
* I can parry a melee attack using my Reaction, Blades x2, and Combat Sense: 10[reaction] + 12[2x blades/swords] + 2[combat sense] = 24 dodging dice. Effectively I can buy off the first 6 successes on any hit.

Counterspelling:
* I defend other characters by adding my counterspelling skill to their relevant stat, when resisting. For a stunball: x[their willpower] + 6[counterspell/combat]
* I resist spells (unless surprised) with my relevant stat and my counterspelling skill. 4[willpower] + 6[counterspell/combat] = 10 resisting dice. Effectively I can ignore any force 1 spell.

Are these all correct? I wasn't sure if a skill is just the points allocated to it, or if it's relevant stat + points allocated to it. If it's the former, then I think all that I've listed above are correct. If it's the latter, then I have to add in my attributes a second time. (For instance, counterspelling would be: 4[will] +6[counterspell, skill component] +4[counterspell, attribute component] = 14 resisting dice.)

[Stahlseele]

Counter Spelling is, once declared, generally viewed as allways on i think.
You just have to declare in advance, who/what you are guarding with how many dice.
If you declare usage of counter spelling before being surprised, you can use it i guess.

[Glyph]

The surprise test is an initiative test. The perception test is only to determine if the character has been alerted - making the perception test gives you +3 to the surprise initiative test. The rules are on pgs. 155-156 of the main book.

[Dakka Dakka]

No, the surprise test is not an initiative test, only the same dice pool is used. The surprise test determines who may interact with whom in the first initiative pass, if they are quick enough. The subsequent Initiative test determines who goes first, so even if the guard is not surprised by the entering runners he can't shoot them first or alert his colleagues unless his Initiative test is higher as the runners' as well.

There is also a mechanical difference between the two:
Surprise Test: Roll REA+INT note and compare hits
Intitiative test: Add the hits of the REA+INT roll to Initiative Score(REA+INT) note and compare those values.
So it is a lot easier to beat the runners at surprise than at Initiative.

@Counterspelling: most GMs don't allow to take counterspelling unless you devote at least one point of your magic to spellcasting. I guess that's the one you sacrificed for ware in your case (IMG:style_emoticons/default/devil.gif)
Yes you only use counterspelling once in the pool. If several people protect a target, the test should be resolved as teamwork test.
While counterspelling does not stop after being used, you still have to maintain LOS to the people you are guarding.

@buying hits: You shouldn't be allowed to buy hits in a stressful situation like combat. Also you shouldn't do it even if the GM allowed it. The statistical turnaround is almost one hit per three dice not four.

[hahnsoo]

I'm pretty sure the adept power for Improved Reflexes 3 applies to the augmented cap for Reaction. But whatever... there are many folks playing crazy variations of the game on this board. I'd bring it up with your GM.

I can't tell what your Intuition is (a 5?) but the Initiative looks like you're double dipping into your Reaction boosters. It probably isn't the case, but those boosters should only affect your Initiative once (when boosting your Reaction attribute).

As far as Bioware, why don't you get the Genetech Reakt? It adds a straight-up +2 to defend against attacks.

Also, Gymnastics Dodge just adds your Gymnastics skill to your dodge roll on full defense. You roll Reaction + Dodge + Gymnastics.

[Dakka Dakka]

I'm pretty sure the adept power for Improved Reflexes 3 applies to the augmented cap for Reaction. But whatever... there are many folks playing crazy variations of the game on this board. I'd bring it up with your GM.

It's the old ambiguous wording:

For each level, you receive +1 die to Reaction (this also affects Initiative) and 1 extra Initiative Pass.

I can't tell what your Intuition is (a 5?) but the Initiative looks like you're double dipping into your Reaction boosters. It probably isn't the case, but those boosters should only affect your Initiative once (when boosting your Reaction attribute).

If the Character has 5 INT it is correct. REA(6)+INT(5)=11 +1(Suprathyroid Gland) +3(Improved Reflexes)=15

[Glyph]

No, the surprise test is not an initiative test, only the same dice pool is used. The surprise test determines who may interact with whom in the first initiative pass, if they are quick enough. The subsequent Initiative test determines who goes first, so even if the guard is not surprised by the entering runners he can't shoot them first or alert his colleagues unless his Initiative test is higher as the runners' as well.

Surprise tests state "...all participants must make an Initiative Test..." so that's what I called it. You are correct that it is a slightly different test, and the actual initiative is rolled afterwards. This particular character would do pretty well on most surprise tests, though, rolling 12 dice before even adding Intuition. The super-high perception score isn't really needed, in my opinion, and would be better used for a combat skill.

Good catch on the counterspelling - I was only looking at the surprise/initiative stuff, and didn't see that.


Note on full parry - you only double the base skill, not the specialization.

@hahnsoo: Reakt is normally solid gold, but getting it would put him at 1.1 Essense cost, and make him lose another point of Magic. He could get around that by getting the Suprathyroid as alphaware, but that would be pretty expensive.

[Tsuul]

An option to blades would be clubs with a specialization of (parry). Melee harden your shotgun and you wont have to 'drop and draw'. Clubs are also more available in the world of impromptu weapons.

[Dakka Dakka]

An option to blades would be clubs with a specialization of (parry). Melee harden your shotgun and you wont have to 'drop and draw'. Clubs are also more available in the world of impromptu weapons.

or change the skill to pistols/automatics and go the ambidexterity route. It does sound a bit much like a Grammaton Cleric though (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
If you pay more for a maneuver you could even attack in melee with one pistol and use the other for full defense (20 dice or 22 if the GM allows specialization for pistols on clubs.

[Tyro]

<snip>
Also, Gymnastics Dodge just adds your Gymnastics skill to your dodge roll on full defense. You roll Reaction + Dodge + Gymnastics.

Huh? That's not how I remember it.

[Glyph]

Huh? That's not how I remember it.

Actually, hahnsoo is right. Gymnastics dodge is an action that is only available for full defense, and it lets you add gymnastics to the appropriate defense pool. Which means that if you don't have the dodge skill or a melee skill, too, then you are not going to be as effective as someone doing a full dodge or a full parry.

[Saint Sithney]

It's the old ambiguous wording:

If the Character has 5 INT it is correct. REA(6)+INT(5)=11 +1(Suprathyroid Gland) +3(Improved Reflexes)=15

That's over his augmented maximum though. Reaction should be capped at 9. The only way I know of to bypass attribute caps is in the case where something adds +X dice to Att-linked skills.

[Dakka Dakka]

Read this post of mine. We always played it in the way that Improved Reflexes applies to the cap but the wording isn't unambiguous.

[Tyro]

Actually, hahnsoo is right. Gymnastics dodge is an action that is only available for full defense, and it lets you add gymnastics to the appropriate defense pool. Which means that if you don't have the dodge skill or a melee skill, too, then you are not going to be as effective as someone doing a full dodge or a full parry.

What I meant is I thought you only added Gymnastics OR Dodge to Reaction for full defense

[Dakka Dakka]

What I meant is I thought you only added Gymnastics OR Dodge to Reaction for full defense

Nope, RAW says otherwise:

may add Gymnastics skill to their dice pool against either ranged or melee attacks.

So it is REA+Dodge/melee skill+Gymnastics against melee attacks and REA+Dodge+Gymnastics against ranged. It is however the GMs right to disallow flipping and cartwheeling in confined spaces.

[Glyph]

What I meant is I thought you only added Gymnastics OR Dodge to Reaction for full defense

Correct if you are only talking about ranged full defense.

[Tyro]

Nope, RAW says otherwise:
So it is REA+Dodge/melee skill+Gymnastics against melee attacks and REA+Dodge+Gymnastics against ranged. It is however the GMs right to disallow flipping and cartwheeling in confined spaces.

I'm too lazy to look it up right now, but I still think you're misinterpreting :-/

[hahnsoo]

From the SR4 FAQ at the official site:
http://www.shadowrun4.com/resources/faq.shtml

What exactly is the dice pool used in the Full Defense option Gymnastic Dodge (p. 151, SR4)?
Against ranged attacks, it would be Reaction + Gymnastics. Against melee attacks, it would be Reaction + Dodge + Gymnastics or Reaction + melee skill + Gymnastics.

You don't add Dodge AND Gymnastics against Ranged Attacks. Gymnastics substitutes for Dodge. Just like Ranged Full Defense is Reaction + Dodge.

[Tyro]

From the SR4 FAQ at the official site:
http://www.shadowrun4.com/resources/faq.shtml

What exactly is the dice pool used in the Full Defense option Gymnastic Dodge (p. 151, SR4)?
Against ranged attacks, it would be Reaction + Gymnastics. Against melee attacks, it would be Reaction + Dodge + Gymnastics or Reaction + melee skill + Gymnastics.

You don't add Dodge AND Gymnastics against Ranged Attacks. Gymnastics substitutes for Dodge. Just like Ranged Full Defense is Reaction + Dodge.

THANK you!

[Dakka Dakka]

And that is exactly what I wrote.

[hahnsoo]

And that is exactly what I wrote.

No. You wrote in post 15 of this thread:
So it is REA+Dodge/melee skill+Gymnastics against melee attacks and REA+Dodge+Gymnastics against ranged. It is however the GMs right to disallow flipping and cartwheeling in confined spaces.

By FAQ, it is Reaction + Gymnastics only for Full Defense against Ranged attacks. Just like when you defend against attacks, it's Reaction only for Ranged and Reaction + Dodge OR Melee skill for Melee, the Gymnastics skill is added to those values.

[Dakka Dakka]

Woops, my bad, I meant REA+Gymnastics for ranged attacks

[Triggvi]

you can not use improved reflexes with any other reaction enhancer.

[Udoshi]

the OP's character could really use a level of Adept Counterstrike

[Ol' Scratch]

you can not use improved reflexes with any other reaction enhancer.

No, there are exceptions. Reaction Enhancers and possession, for instance. The former is specifically stated to work with certain forms of initiative enhancements, and the latter boosts your base Reaction, making it an indirect "reaction enhancer."